failing fast and being vulnerable w/ cassandra faris

full transcript

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals. We don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco, VACO.com is how to get in touch with me old-fashioned email social media at tdesintesnyn. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. So Cassandra, so we have a lot of topics to cover. So I want to talk about the first thing that we talked about off air. And it's really talking about failing and being vulnerable in the workplace. And I'm really big on this because I think it's leading teams, especially in a fully remote environment.

Like you're in my home right now. I am in your home, right? That's weird to say. But at the end of the day, I did not mean to rhyme that. It's a lot more personal. Like I would argue that being virtual actually puts you into the people, something they make them more human. So talk about the importance of being vulnerable in the workplace, maybe what you've seen during COVID about vulnerability and kind of how that's worked within rocket. So that's where it, okay, this all started kind of pre-COVID. I learned some lessons. I had a, there's no way for me to tell the story without starting the piece of the story that sounds like a bad country song, but 2018 was a dumpster fire for me personally.

My within the course of five to six months, my, I fractured my rib, I got rear ended, my dog died, my husband left, and I lost my job. It's happened long enough ago, and I talk about it enough that I can like rattle that all off. But when I was going through all of that, my life was falling apart. And the only way I was gonna get through it was to tell people, like be honest with my managers, my coworkers, my friends, and the community that I didn't go into a lot of detail, but just that some things were going on. Like at one point, I remember saying, I was gonna take several months away from the community to just step back and focus on, I was also struggling with new diagnoses of depression and anxiety.

So in the midst of all of that was going on. So I just basically got to a point where I was like, it looks like I'm just screwing up all over the place when in reality I'm trying to hide that everything's a mess. And so I eventually just decided to be vulnerable and be open about what was going on, being respectful privacy. But I found that by doing that, I actually was given a lot more support. I got one of the best pieces of advice a leader ever gave me. And this was an HR guy at improving, which is a software company I worked for.

And I was telling him about, like we were talking through some of the accommodations, basically, that I needed. And he said, well, you need to make sure that you're taking care of yourself. There's a reason why they tell you to put the mask on yourself on an airplane before you put it on other people. The idea being if you're not taking care of yourself, you actually cannot take care of your family, friends, or community. And between that and just having been in a world where I've always worked with an agile framework where it's been okay to fail, it's been okay to experiment. It's been okay to mess up.

I decided to just be open about it and allow myself room to screw up and be vulnerable. And it's for the most part been beneficial to me. And I think it's helped within the cultures of the company I work. I know it's something I look for in a company culture as being able to experiment. And when you're struggling, it's okay to struggle. So like my team at work now, nobody on the team has any problem saying, Hey, have a therapy appointment or hey, I'm, you know, I need to take an hour to go. I don't know, go for a run or meditate or play video games or whatever.

Like I'm overwhelmed. Right. And we've made that okay. And that became even more important when COVID happened. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and I think too, and I, I, I talk. I mean, I'm, I'm really big on this. you can only, people can only support you for as open and vulnerable as you allow yourself to be, right? I see it all the time where people like, no one's there for me. You know, nobody cares about me. And I'm like, well, when's I'm that you were open with that person? When's the last time that you were vulnerable with that person? And I really feel like until, and this goes into workplace, right?

Now listen, I'm not saying, and Cassandra, I'm sure, Cassandra and I, we spoke at an event, was it yesterday or Tuesday? Together, I don't know all the days. I don't know, yeah. Yeah, but like, you know, Cassandra has some stories for sure, but like, and I'm not saying you air your dirty laundry all the time, but what I'm saying is, is like, listen, like if you're struggling with something in the workplace, this goes for managers right now, especially at the end of the year and planning. If you're struggling with something, like be open about it, Because I feel like we live in a highlight real culture, Instagram, TikTok, whatever.

It's all highlight reels. And I feel like the individuals who can be vulnerable, especially in the workplace, it really breaks down barriers. Yeah. It really breaks down barriers. And it makes you more human. And I think by doing that, it makes you approachable. And then back when I was a recruiter, even, I was usually pretty open about things. and it gave me a lot of trust and credibility and to the state of people are like, oh, you said this thing or you helped me with this thing and it impacted me positively. I love that. I love that. So then let's talk about failing successfully experimentation.

So Cassandra has a really cool background. And I'm going to let her say, because I do want you to talk about Dev Row a little bit, your experiences at the companies you've been to. But talk about the importance of having an environment for developers and people to experiment. And it could be a non-developer thing too, right? I mean, even for me, Vaco's done a really good job of letting me experiment with content, right? So talk about the importance of trying to set a culture where you can experiment and be able to fail successfully. Well, you know, I'm a recovering tech recruiter myself. Yeah, I know.

So I'd had a job where I was basically brought in because I was known to be very passionate about the community and as a recruiter you want to hire people you know, people who are engaged in the community, all that. And so when I was hired into my job, my own tech recruiting job, when I'd say things like I want to speak at a conference, I want to be president of this conference, I want organize this user group, my managers were basically go for it. You know, it was a, we were not quite a startup consulting company, but we were kind of just past that startup phase.

And so there was still a lot of room, a lot of room to experiment and roll around. And I constantly got the feedback like what you do as a normal, but it works. And so we would actually be very methodical about it when you are failing or trying not to fail. So, and I do this to this day, say that you try something. It's a stream, it's a talk, it's a conference sponsorship, it's a, you know, peer mentoring program, whatever. Try it for three months or a month or whatever set of time you do. Usually it's three months and then you do a retrospective and like actual sit down proper retrospective with, you know, what did we do well?

What did we do poorly? What do we want to improve? I do those after after we sponsor big events too, I'd sit my team down and we do it retrospective to figure out how to make it a better experience next time, what worked, what didn't work. And so I've just always thought in that. And when everything happened in 2018, I felt like I was failing at life. And this is where I think we hear a lot of stories about, oh my God, I failed. And then, yay, there was this great happy ending, but you don't hear what happens when you're in that, when you're in the thick of it.

And so in this talk, I'm doing a code mash and that conference text is called feeling successfully. I'm going to be talking a big piece of it's going to focus on what you do when you're in the midst of failure. How do you reach out to your support system? How do you communicate this stuff with your managers? How do you honestly just keep yourself going when the last thing you want to do is get out of bed and your dog's the only reason that you're even doing it. I love that. I think it's about the process and I think it's, I think too and, and because, and because I definitely want to, you know, you've been at amazing companies in the tech community.

And, and I want you to share like the importance, like, like what have you seen within good culture within the companies you've been at and how being open and vulnerable and failing has lifted the entire organization? I mean, can you give, is it, can you give like specific times where you've come in and it's been one way, but then you've worked on creating experimentation or building kind of that environment and how you've seen it shift. Yes, so I have, I'm a technical community manager. I work in developer relations, which is, we're basically liaisons between technologists and companies, sometimes products as well. And so I have been at my previous position, I was the first ever community manager for an open source product that had gone enterprise and I was in charge of like moderating the slack and running these open hours and you know just different finding different ways to get the group engaged.

Now at Rocket I'm the first ever technical community manager but I'm working on an enterprise from an enterprise perspective trying to get our reputation as a FinTech company out in the world and talk about some of what we're doing. And when you're building a dev rel program There's actually a literal book. It's called the Business Value of Developer Relations. I recommend it. You have it? That's great. I actually just finished rereading. You can see all the tabs in it. Yeah, that's so good. But it's the closest thing we have to a guidebook. I've talked to the author a couple of times on Twitter. She's amazing.

Her name is Mary Thangball. And honestly, I recommend this book for anybody who wants to understand how the tech community works, whether or not you're in DevRel. But this book is basically this and then just firsthand experience is basically all I had and DevRel looks a lot like you go to events, you go to conferences. So I get this community management job in November of 2019, and August of 2019, and I'm starting to plan for all this stuff in 2020 that's going to be in person, right? Like we all were, and you probably know where this is going. It's going to be great. Yes. Everything gets canceled.

Like, I'm, I'm go from like hearing myself up to help run a conference in Amsterdam and, you know, go speak at one of Morocco to, oh, I'm stuck at home forever. How do I connect with this community that's feeling very disconnected? And so you had to start trying and trying and seeing what worked and what didn't work. And so we tried different programs, different methods of outreach. We found some things that were really successful. found some things that weren't well attended. The other big thing was listening to community feedback. So for example, we used to host these online basically hackathons where we would do, or code jam basically, we tried to get a whole bunch of pull requests and issues taken care of and merged back in with our community contributors.

And at some point, people were talking about documentation and how the documentation needed updated. So, alongside the last Code Jam, we did a documentation jam. And we ran it just like the Code Jam and there were things that were tagged as good ways for people to start contributing to open source. And a lot of times it was just edits or updating versions and stuff. And so, that was one experiment that worked really well. An experiment that has gone less well is sponsoring virtual conferences and events. and has not been a great experience for myself in anywhere I've worked because it's hard to get the hallway track.

It's hard to replicate that. And so that was an area where we spent a lot of money to sponsor a couple of conferences. It didn't work. The retrospective said let's not do this anymore. And so that was a failure that reinforced the importance of doing things in person and also reinforced that So we need other ways to connect with our community. So we started going to Twitch streams and some other ways of talking. Yeah, and I love this. And I'm glad we got here, which I knew we would, but I'm glad we got here. Because I want to talk about DevRel programs, community programs. Why do you think, there's no wrong answers here.

Why do you think every company in the tech space should have some sort of DevRel slash community program? It depends on how you define it. So I don't know that necessarily every company needs DevRel or it's more that every company needs to know how their DevRel should look. Because DevRel can exist for a lot of different reasons. It can exist for brand evangelism. It can exist for trying to attract users and people contributing to your open source products. can exist to, we actually have developer relations with the university community and we have internal developer relations at work. And it's our jobs to listen to what our technologists in any of those areas want and try to, based on that feedback, improve their experience.

To a company, it's beneficial because a company that has a dev rel program, especially if you're out in the world, especially if you have dev rel people speaking and sponsoring, then they see you as an expert. They just automatically assume that you're an expert in this space because you're speaking at these conferences. And increases your head. No one has any idea what they're doing actually. Yeah, this is very true. It increases your brand awareness. It increases your personal and professional networks. It's just, developer relations does all of that stuff and it helps with retention. If you're listening for internal dev rel, if you're listening to what your internal communities want and implementing that stuff and people stick around at the company.

And we know it's hard to hire and retain technical talent. So that's when we've won DevRel person who, her name's Alyssa, and she does internal DevRel and she does things like, where she learns, hack weeks, and make sure that what we're doing is what our community's asking for or the things they wanna learn a lot of times. I love it, I love it. I wanna go back to DevRel in a second, but I do wanna get to some of these comments. Let's see here, Elliot, I'm glad you're hanging out. Yolanda, good morning. Feels like forever since I've been able to join. Yes, what year is it?

Alicia, it's good to see you, man. Craig, good morning. Chris, good morning. I love it. Barrett, what's up, buddy? It doesn't get better than Cassandra Taylor. It's good to see you. So, Tasha goes in to be relatable. This brings a team closer, be transparent with where you are. Failure is all part of learning. We are lifelong learners as tech is forever changing. I mean, listen, you know, I want to talk about this for a second, go back to this. But, you know, one of the things when COVID hit in 2020, trying to manage a team of 10 recruiters or 12, we had to lay two off was brutal.

Like laying off, I've never had to like lay somebody off before. And I cried, I cried afterwards. It was brutal. And a lot of people on my team were very scared. And I think one of the things I learned is like, like literally we did a call and like basically everybody on my team was like emotional in some way, shape or form. And it just really showed that like listen, managers, managers don't always need to have this iron fist and like just drive, drive, drive. Sometimes the really the best manager I know actually sit and listen and like are vulnerable and relatable, which I think is huge.

I didn't know Cassandra if you had any thoughts on this. Yeah, that's huge. And I was just talking with somebody the other day about that, about it might have been after the meetup, actually. But that is one thing, is that a culture of vulnerability has to come from the top down. Has to. And like I said, in some cases, I feel like agile can lend itself to that if you're talking the spirit of agile and experimentation. But like anything, there's companies where that doesn't work out and where you can't safely be vulnerable. but you should as a leader be called to be an environment of vulnerability.

Absolutely. Chris goes, had nice documentation, Jim. That's something that many places need. So Alicia, Alicia with the paragraph here, I've missed you, Alicia. So, and Cassandra, Alicia is a director of engineering here in Nashville. I think part of the problem with expressing vulnerability and failure is we're really bad about being on the receiving end. God, so true. A challenge to be vulnerable is thinking people, A, don't care or B, don't know what to do about it. If I tell someone I'm struggling, I'm mostly here, sorry, dude. And that's immense the feeling of isolation. And the same way we have open to work badges, there should be open to vulnerability badges.

And that is a problem, but for me, I think you gotta start somewhere. And if that person can't receive what you said, I think, it is hard, it's so hard, but sometimes you just have to like be okay with that. And I don't know if that's the best answer. So I'm interested to hear your thoughts. It's gonna get a little meta because you're being vulnerable and there's a chance that you get blown off. There's a chance that you get made fun of heaven forbid. Like it can go poorly, it can go negatively, it can go, especially with like mental health stuff. can be a lot, oh, it's on your head, it's not a real thing.

So that's the hard part about it is identifying, even if your whole company isn't a place where you have you've gone from an open, you need to have a friend or two at work that you can just talk to. A great big believer in that. And so I think that's a piece of it, is just identifying those two people that you can go to when you're struggling. And a lot of times it's a reciprocal relationship. And then the other thing, and engineers struggle with this. Technologists wear problem solvers. And sometimes when somebody's being vulnerable and somebody's struggling and somebody needs help, they don't need the problem solved.

They just wanna chat. So I actually have with several of my friends, including my very close group of speaker friends, we have a whole thing where we, one of our conversational conventions basically is, are you looking for advice? Or do you just want somebody to listen? I like that. I'm looking for advice. You're just looking for a list of a lot of that. I mean, you word it differently, but then you make sure that you're not just giving unsolicited advice, but you're being that supportive friend. And it doesn't, you just need a couple, minimum you just need a couple of people that you can do this with.

If you're me and you're comfortable being a pretty darn open book and purposely do scary things now, you know, it's a little different, but some people aren't that open. So you just find your one or two trusted people. Absolutely. Yeah, Cassandra and I are probably some of the most open people that I know. So yeah, Craig goes listening, listening to skill on its own and one that I think a lot of people don't know how to develop or see the value of developing. Yeah, I mean, listen, for me, I spent three years in counseling trying to figure out how to listen. And I still don't do a great job, right?

I mean, you could, my wife probably hears me right now doing this talk and she's probably not and go, yeah, yeah. So like, Like, again, I think active listening is so difficult. It is so difficult and not many people know how to do it. One of the exercises my counselor did to me was like, I was sitting there and he goes, hey, he goes, he goes, just start talking. And I was like, about what? He's like, doesn't matter, just start talking. So I started talking and he repeated everything. And like, we went on for five minutes. Listen, if somebody repeats something back to you for five minutes that you said, like it was kind of like back and forth.

Like, and then we ended it. He goes, how did that make you feel? And I was like, it was, I go kind of weird. He goes, why? Cause I was like, you said everything I said, which makes me feel heard. And I feel like people don't do that. So, Cassandra, thoughts on that? Yeah. I mean, sometimes it's just echoing back or reinforcing a point. And a lot of times that's another thing I found is people just want to feel heard and like they have a voice. And we don't always do that well either because we don't have the social and communication skills or because we're just so excited about the thing we just want to keep talking and going on about it.

There's a lot of different reasons that happens but listening is an ongoing skill. I'm giggling at the, you know, your wife's saying you don't listen. Because I think it's- Well, unfortunately it's because of this, looks down at phone, I'm sorry what and again, I mean, listen, I can go into, you know, I think there needs to be more classes around like how to balance work and be a husband or a wife or a partner to somebody. Because trying to like stay off your phone. I mean, I'll be vulnerable here. I had a situation last night where I was on my phone and at a time where I shouldn't have been on my phone.

Right? And so it's a challenge that people face, that I face, that we all face every day. But I'll tell you this, leaders, If you watch this now or in the future, and Cassandra, I definitely want you to chime in after this. Like, listen, I'm all about new year new me, but if you're not actively trying to listen to your people right now, like you're gonna lose them. So I wanna know your thoughts, if any, on that. It's something I'm giggling about the partner thinks. It's something that my partner and I are both like very, all over, it can be very all over the place.

And there are times when I'll be like, Are you listening to me or how would you like, hey, did you hear what I said? And so we're working on and trying to get in the habit of saying, hey, do you have a minute? Like, do I have your attention? We had to talk about something that was being done in the basement yesterday. He's like, hey, it's a good time. So that sets a stage for now. Oh, I'm in listening mode. Or it's perfectly acceptable to say, I need five minutes to wrap this up and then I can go into listening mode. I think that's my best tip I have there.

And it's still something I'm learning. I love that, hey, is this a good time? like, can I have your, can I have your attention for like five? Like I think asking, I think is good because it gets other person's attention. Yep. I'm really big on that. Yeah. Oh, I say it gets their attention. It gets honestly their consent to like, is this a good time to talk about our topic? Cause sometimes you're not in a space where you can do that. Right. Sometimes I'm a lot of times I'm not in space to do it. Uh, Nick, I don't know what you're saying great advice, but I'd love it.

It's good to see you, Nick. Um, so, uh, LinkedIn user, I agree with Alicia vulnerability, like forgiveness is for your own healing and growth, which spills over to others and creates community. Oh, is that Dr. T? I thought that's Dr. T comment, but yeah, love that. And I think going back to what Cassandra's role is, kind of what we talked about, building community. I mean, how important is it right now, Cassandra, to build community in the time that we're in? This community, to some extent, got me through. Actually, community is what got me and keeps me getting through this whole pandemic mess. I have a small group of close speaker friends.

We've termed ourselves shenanigansters and we get together and do a lot of fun stuff, but we also have a Slack channel that we run under a Ted Neward phrase called friend DA. So we can go in there and talk about things safely. So when I was laid off for my last job, I wasn't allowed to tell people publicly, but I needed to talk to somebody. So I went to my friends. But that grew kind of throughout this past year and a half, We've all just gone in there and it's been a place to vent. It's been a place to give advice. It's been a place to empathize.

And then I have the same thing with my geek tailgate group as well. And if you don't have that community, I don't know how people got through the last year, because just being able to talk to my friends, kept me sane. And finding ways to hang out with each other is, safely as we could, especially last spring and summer was important to me. So I don't think it would have gotten through without the community. Yeah, and again, I talk about networking and building community a lot. Like it's not, think about things you like to do, right? Like Cassandra's a big Columbus crew person, right? How many people for those who don't know, that's the MLS team up in Columbus.

But like how many people have you met because of just hanging out with soccer games? I've hired at least three people when heck I recruited because of the tailgate. I just happen to find an overlap on Twitter. That's it. tech people and soccer people. And my thing at the geek tailgate is everybody's welcome there. So I love that. I need to be. You should. I'll come up for that. Because I'm a big soccer fan. National got kicked out. We got low weight loss Philadelphia team. But I saw that I wanted to actually come down for the crew Nashville game this summer, but the timing didn't work out.

But we make that happen next season because we have to bring stadium and make those got seats. So we'll make that happen. So right here, Chris, my wife has taught me many times she doesn't want the problem solved. She just wants to go to event. That transfers. Listen, there's so much when it comes to jobs, or it's with dating marriage, right? They're relationships like everything kind of correlates. And so Chris, that Amanda, it's so good to hear from you, Amanda. So we have this. We have that in a Slack group. I'm in. We have a mental health channel that we can post things and just say, we're looking for someone to listen.

No advice needed. It's nice to have a place to be able just to get it out. why I tell you what, it's huge, huge. Liam, thanks for tuning in, ma'am. Hello, hello, vulnerability is one of the most important trades leadership. I don't think you can really like level up as a leader until you can be vulnerable. I don't know if that's a whole statement, so I don't know if you have that on that. There was a conversation going around about that and about how leaders who, and I've been lucky that I've had several very good leaders who were open, who were honest, who were okay with saying I screwed up.

And there's been a lot of even like research done about how the most important traits of leadership or empathy and vulnerability and not like power and command and all that stuff. Right, right. Yeah, I agree, I agree. But Pia, active listening is a skill, it is a skill a major aspect communication. Yes, 100%. At least it comes back to a second, second did regarding how to balance work and be a good partner. I suck at it. Listen, I'm going I'm gonna be honest, most of us suck at it. I think that's why it's so important to have that communication. I love what Cassandra said, like ask, hey, can we chat right now is now a good time.

Nick comes in, great advice on having a couple folks. Listen, I have a couple folks. Listen, if you're watching this, you all know who you are. I mean, I can't go be vulnerable and share everything with everybody. And so you definitely need that. Yeah. And I would add that you, like, if the conversations are getting really raw and vulnerable, if there are things you don't want to talk about at work, like for whatever reason or talk about through work channels, it's fine to, you know, I have people that I use Slack and text to talk about certain things. And then we talk on, you know, teams for work-related stuff.

It just depends where your comfort level is. 100%. I love this. Shanae Ganks does, at least I steal on that. I love that, love that geek tailgate name. 100%, if you're a boss, if you're not vulnerable and emotionally intelligent, you're a leader if you have those in spades. You're a boss, ooh, I like that. You're a boss if you're not, I like that. I love that. Oh God, I could go on and on about how leadership is not management. Actually one of my coworkers does a talk on that. I love that, I love that, that's awesome. And then Jorge, we're gonna wrap up here. Jorge, instead of listening, instead of trying to problem solve something I've learned as a husband, I think a lot of us in tech are natural problems, I interviewed Jason Langstorf.

We kind of dove into, I think the question I asked him is why does IT leadership suck so bad? And he was like, because it's base, and again, that's a blank statement, but basically you take problem solvers and you try to like throw people at them and people are not lines of code. Yep. And of course, like Jason, you crushed that. So it can be hard to take a step back and realize that listening can help a lot more than trying to solve someone's issues. Oh, yeah. Let's talk with one of our engineering team leaders the other day and she was saying that her hardest problems are the people problems and I hear that all the time.

Yeah, it's true. It's a lot easier to figure out how to I don't know, write a talk that it is to solve a people problem. Exactly. Derek goes, I'm picking up on a thing that keeps showing up this week. Purposeful attention to individuals needs is important. be that purposely listening or purposely asking how someone is. Yes, listen, I think the theme of the show in general is being purposeful, being intentional, right? Where it comes to when it comes to hiring, when it comes to onboarding, when it comes to training and development, when it comes to reaching out to somebody in the job search, right? It's all needs to be intentional and purposeful.

And to be quite frank with you all, I do that to keep myself in check. Like part of this whole thing is just to force myself to continue to run myself, to continue to be personable, to continue to be intentional, because I fail at it every single day. So Cassandra, we're gonna wrap it up here. Thank you again for coming on, girl. Do you have any last closing thoughts, comments, anything that you wanna just leave? Cassandra nuggets that you wanna leave with the audience. Cassandra's standard nugget to kind of successes to meet people and help them. like that's it. I love that. I love it.

How so obviously people can find you on Twitter. Yep. I'm at Cassandra Ferris on pretty much every platform you can think about. But Twitter is my Twitter DMs are the place where I'm most likely to you know, respond to stuff quickly. But I love it. Yeah, happy to reach out and chat about this stuff more. I love it. Yeah, I love that. So y'all go can't wait because Sandra, Sandra, thank you again. Stay on for a quick second after this. But y'all, thank you for hanging out this week with me. I appreciate it. We Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, next week. I will not be live Thursday Friday because we have a bunch of team buildings things.

So Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, next week. It's going to be awesome. See y'all on Monday, 9.30 a.m. Central. I'm Cassandra. Thank you for coming on. Y'all have a wonderful weekend and I'll see you all Monday. Peace. Thank you. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes, and I myself rarely finish an entire episode, so I appreciate you so so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others, and the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it.

Please, like, right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, Taylor at Vaco.com or at T.S. and on all social media handles, And I hope you have a fantastic day.