2022 hiring outlook & perfecting interviewing w/ kyle allen

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. So that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco, VACO.com is how to get in touch with me old fashioned email social media at T D S and T D E S S E Y N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. Kyle, give the people what they want. First and foremost, who are you? What do you do and then we'll dive in? Man, that is so glad to be here, Taylor. Kyle Allen, I'm in Nashville.

So I'm the managing partner here in the Nashville office. So I kind of oversee all the operations, revenue, sales, role here in Nashville, and then I oversee a handful of other offices across the BECO globe as well. as well. So I'm more of it. We talked about this too, which I thought was hilarious. Aspiring tech nerd that I will continue to be aspiring towards. I'm actually a CPA and every day learning a little bit more about technology. And I know what makes the world spin is not accounting, but accounting is an ester evil. But tech is where it's at. So love to hang out with any tech folks when I can.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm learning Kyle on some tech tech things. He is getting better more proficient. But again, at the end of the day, accounting is just debits and credits, right? All right. So let's go ahead and dive in. So Kyle, Kyle's been with the Kyle, how long you been the recruiting industry for just general? Recruiting an issue. I just started driving. So 16 years in October. I love it. I love it. So Kyle's seen a lot. He's been through a lot, kind of like Alex, who I had on the show a few months back, who is who runs our technology practice. listen, I told it with Alex, dinosaur to digital is what we talked about.

But what I'm saying is that guys like Kyle, guys like Alex have been the issue for a very long time. They have a very good pulse on what's going on. So Kyle wanted to dive in. What are your thoughts on 2022, man? Again, the people tuning in, John, Craig, Yulman, Yolanda, Daniel, what's going on? It's good to see you. I'm sure they had the same thought as even I do. And I'm interested here at thoughts. Like, what do you think 22 is going to entail for hiring and just general outlook. Well, I think 22 is going to be a lot of like 21, maybe with a little more amped up version of it.

I think that the competition for talent has never been greater. I think there's a really, really good opportunity for scrappy companies out there that have a really, really good succinct interview process and model. And they're really trying to, the companies that are out there trying to find talent as opposed to filling roles are gonna do really well in 22, in my opinion. So I wanna break that down real quick. Can you, so talent versus roles, not to be confused with dinner roles, which I'm a big fan of, talk to me about what that means, especially for hiring managers who are gonna watch this in the future.

Well, I think as a hiring manager, you know kind of, you gotta evaluate, hey man, you're not trying to recreate or carbon copy people, because people are individuals, right? you probably have their own feelings and their own desire, and you need to lean into that. But I think it's important to understand like what are some two or three things that make each individual successful? And when you're talking to individuals or seeing you're constantly looking for talent, you're constantly looking for that. So I just think it needs to be in these managers DNA of like, okay, I know what I need. I know when I see it, I know I can able to go find it.

And that obviously for the manager is to have a really open dialogue with the executive team, of like what we're trying to do, what we're trying to grow. And I think having access to that and telling them, hey, this is where you do a good job of that. And other people will work with me. It's like, hand me time in your calendar. We're going to do this. We're going to drive. We're going to go. And so really getting your leaders here to help that. Because I think if you get to the kind of the same robotic HR process of like, oh, Johnny, put in notice, we need to backfill Johnny.

We need to go through a three-week process of writing a job description, getting it approved for the executive channels, then you post it on career builder and just sit back and wait. And then they got to come through a process that takes six weeks, like you're going to be sore least. That literally gives me anxiety. Like you saying all that gives me anxiety. But companies do that. I know. I know. They don't have power. They don't trust. And the reason why they don't do that is a couple of things. is totally my opinion. It's the exact. The executives don't trust the managers, right? They don't power them to go hire people.

And then the flip side of that is managers are too afraid to screw up to make a bad hire and look bad. So that instead of just owning where you screw up and make a bad hire and fixing it and correcting the wrong and moving on and learning from it, they want to look good, right? And so it's all about tone from the top as far as how your executives push that down. And that's a big key problem with corporate recruiting in general, why it moves slow, is people are afraid to make decisions. Yeah. So I wanna go back to the outlook. So I tweeted, and I'm glad you said that, and it doesn't make me feel stupid.

Brittany, it's good to see you. Brittany was a guest on a few weeks ago. Elliot, what's going on? It's late every month. It's good to see you. I tweeted the other day. I said, I think 2022 is gonna be a little bit more of a feeding frenzy than 2021. And I had a hiring manager tweet me, He goes, what makes you say that? And in my opinion, Kyle, the aspiring developer, Alan, yes. Definitely. Yes. He knows.net, so we are getting there. So I think it's because I think 2021 was a realization for a lot of people about the market, what's going on. And I think a lot of people, I think while a lot of people moved around, I think there was a lot of people still being like, all right, is this too good to be true?

I see things, I see, I'm seeing salaries go up. I'm seeing all this stuff. I'm just going to sit it out because I don't know if this is a trend or if this is like for real. I think all those people are like, holy cow, this is actually for real. And I think they're going to bounce in 2022. Yeah, I think so too. I mean, I think, you know, just just on salaries, right? People don't leave for salaries. But I think when it becomes so ridiculous that you're like, I need to look at me. Maybe maybe look at it. It's like like Bobo leaving South Carolina, right?

So when Shane Beamer was hired, Big South, I'll pull in football whenever I can. I know you can. I hope there's a few South Carolina fans on here for you. They're like what the hell is it? There's not. So Elliot's a Mississippi State fan. I don't know. I saw him maybe going there next year. Maybe I may be swinging the cowbell. Starless is number one I think. Like Shane Beamer came in, offered Mike Boba I think like 1.1 mill or something like that. And then Auburn called and gave him like two or two and a half or something. That's like listen, like that's life changing money.

And it's working very since he's fired now, right? So, but like that's life changing money. So I understand like go get the bread, but I think also too, I think companies and I think individuals are gonna dive in a little bit more in 2022 because of that though. Because I think here's, you got the twofold. I think candidates are individuals looking for jobs probably put way too much on the money piece and undervalue the flexibility and the autonomy that their current organization gives them. Everybody does that. Until you get somewhere else and you don't have it, you're like, crap. What? I've never had to do this before.

And you feel like this. Or you feel like micromanage, you're like, this guy's all over me, back off, I've never had that. What is that worth to you? And so I think people sorely undervalue that big time. So that's one and two in a salary piece like yeah, there's a whole there's a whole grand scheme of things But if you break down I'm gonna kind of counting nerd out. Oh here we go here. We go if you break down If you break down a fifteen thousand dollars raise over 12 months over a 24 paychecks post tax Like four bucks an hour Money I mean I'm not saying it's up.

You know me by that like it's an extra three hundred dollars And Kyle said that's not one scheme of things, right? Listen, like I understand, like you got to get paid. And I think there's got to be some market correction, but. So if I had the flexibility to kind of, you know, leave the house or go to the house and come back and do my thing or work remotely and come and go and I'm empowered and I'm making change, like it's 15 grand worth losing that. Like that's all I'm saying on the candidate side. It's like it's not all about salary. And so individuals looking for jobs undervalue that piece.

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So let's talk about this here a little bit more, right? Where do you think the biggest pitfalls, and again, you can come at it from a accounting perspective again, I mean, I think the reason why I like hanging out with Kyle not only is because he's a good dude and I like him, but he also has the accounting finance side, I bring the tech side and so we can kind of view the market an extremely holistic manner. So Kyle, talk to me even whether it's accounting, finance, or in general, the biggest pitfalls that you've seen with companies in 2021. So that's this year.

Well, the biggest thing, I mean, the biggest pitfalls are pretty simple. I mean, I think people are not changing, right? I think- Hiring managers. Yeah, just organizations of how they are. Dog teachers are changing. They're changing jobs a lot right now. That's right, but I'm just saying like organizations are like, well, this is how we always talk Mr. Allen everybody has to talk to Mr. Allen he's out for the next two weeks Yeah, he he has to see everybody and then you're like well then it has to go through a six person panel We need you to do three tests Right and then once that off comes back then we'd like you to come in for a face to face eight hour And then you're yeah, yeah But the here's and so I just think companies waste time that's their biggest pitfall is they waste time or they'll interview somebody two or three times and then say they're not qualified.

You're like, you couldn't tell me you couldn't tell the person wasn't qualified after reading the resume or better yet after one conversation. You've got to talk to him three times. So I think it's just it's, oh, that could be a cop out of an excuse, right? It's either it's either one. But I think overall the process for organizations hiring has got to get faster and better. It just does. And so the larger the organization, the worse it is, right? So typically, right? What do you always, what do you think? And I like giving tactical advice on the show. Because again, I think LinkedIn is over and grossed with crazy stories and no one gives advice.

How many, how many rounds do you think is good, Kyle? I mean, because again, we evaluate. So I'll tell you this, right? I mean, I would argue that trying to find a recruiter is a little harder than trying to find a developer because developers like, do you have dot net? Do you have angular? Okay, great. We're going to hire you to a certain again. Yeah. Incredible generalization. Recruiting. It's like you have recruiting, but like, are you a nice person? Like there's so many stuff. Well, the hard part with us and hiring is majority of the people that come to us have never even thought about doing our business.

Yeah, which is another thing, right? At least you're a developer. Like, yeah, that's what I think for us. There's a little bit of like explaining. So they're like, okay, let me tell me what I would be doing. Yeah. You know, I don't know what I do. She's like, I just talk all day on the internet. I was like, yeah, basically. My wife doesn't know what I do. She goes, hey, what do I say? We just tell them I work at Baker. I think that's what your wife was talking about the Christmas party. They're still talking about what we do. Yeah, I find people jobs. It's what I do.

Which is not what I do really now day to day. I know that's not what you do. It's all good. So, yeah, look like like how What's the best ideal interview process because like I have mine in my head. Yeah, I mean, I think Go ahead and hit it and our intro call but the company's got to sell itself even more right now than ever. Like literally it should be like 20 minutes talking about the person and like 40 minutes talking about the opportunity. That's what companies need to do more of. It's always like what can the individual do for them? And they're wanting, it's always funny.

It was like, hey, we want these seven things for this individual I have. I'm like, if that individual has all seven things you're looking for, you're going to hire them and they're going to be bored in six months. I never understood that. What's ever, ever. So stupid. So stupid. stupid. So give him some runway to grow, right? Because it's not like you go to fourth grade and you're like, man, this kid already knows everything in fourth grade. Well, he's got to do fourth grade. You're like, do you have a kid in fourth grade where you should pull fourth grade from? I don't know. That's just examples for me.

I'm just saying it's like you go to school to learn, correct? Right. I don't come to a job and expect to like know how to now. I will say this. I do like my doctors to know what they're doing. If they're going to crack me open from a surgery standpoint. I would say that I don't want them now they can learn new techniques for the most part of Just don't learn new techniques on me. We're good little sidebar very sorry, but you get where I'm going with that Second round for you then what do you think second? I think I think first round first off I think it's this as much as you can saving some time I think if it can be face-to-face it could be phone But if you could do kind of this remote it cuts off a lot you get the new personality Yes You get to see more than just phone and voice and a like how they kind of drive the conversation or ask them intriguing questions.

I think this is really good. And then as far as the second round, I think it's pretty tight. I mean, I think if you know, like, you know what you're looking for. And if you know, I think companies can get it's kind of like, You know, when the girl likes the guy and the girl won't leave the guy alone. You're like, Oh, God, what's your deal? I think I think companies can get like that a little bit. You got to play a little cool. Like, Hey, we really like your background. We're really interested, letting them know you're interested, but like not getting like school girl on them, because that could kind of scare the individual way of like, are they desperate?

What am I missing here? Is it a good opportunity? And then vice versa too on the candidate side, right? So it's a balance, I think. But I think, I mean, coming back to tops, two interviews, but if you know after one, and you're talking through things, and maybe another phone call of explaining it, good to go, If you're using somebody like us, and obviously they're gonna schoolgirl to us and say, hey, we want to hire that individual, what have we gotta do? And then we kind of say, hey, they need these questions answered, they need another phone call, we can kind of help facilitate that process.

Right. But man, eight weeks is not gonna cut it. Yeah, I mean, I think too, Elliot comments here, Dang, I never thought about being bored like that. Yeah, I mean, companies who watch this, I think the fact, if you want, if you need four or five, like no one's ever going to stay with you like ever. So got to get my runway or a promote ability, right? Yeah. Some lift. So you are correct on your accountant, lawyer, dentist and doctors, we fully trained and experienced. I'm with you on that. Yeah. That'll that'll preach. I think I think my thing is, is I think I think you got 10 business days, 10.

So there's two weeks. I think you have three rounds at most. The only thing I would add a lot of tech folks like to have a third kind of like, you need to talk with a VP of engineering. and you need to talk with our CIO, whatever. So if you have to have that call, again, that was Kyle's kind of comment about Mr. Allen's out for two weeks, I would be cautious with that and have like a plan B in case Mr. Allen is out for two weeks. But I think you really need to get it done in 10 days, three rounds, long term, you know, our video, two hour tech assessment for me.

So the way I kind of talk to hiring manager, I think you need an hour code-along pairing, right? All of these higher managers making developers take test at home. Listen, no, ain't no one got time for that. They got five other at home tests they got to do. Just work it into the interview. Cause at the end of the day, you want to know how that person works with you. So why are you doing the test? Take it home. So you have that then the final round third one is obviously just. Yeah. But it all can tailor it all comes down to speed, right? Yeah.

Just like having the thought of the process, get through it. Don't waste time. Yeah. I have one. I have one client. They do five or six rounds, but you know what? It's like, bam, bam, bam. They're like super communicative and they get it done in two weeks. Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing is like, it's not, and I think this is probably the other big thing I meant to say as far as hiring process for corporations, it doesn't become a priority. That's it. It's not a priority for them. Correct. When we submit people, correct process. Oh, I've got to go run to this meeting.

I've got to go do this. I got it's not a priority. Yeah. Not for most. Yeah. And they're like, oh yeah, I'm into get back with you. Yeah, they're gone. The first I said four days ago, you they're gone. You not responding in four days means one, you're not serious about finding somebody. Correct. Or two or you didn't like the person I sent. That's what that tells me. Yeah. So I think that's the biggest thing in the corporations and people that are like desperate to call us when it's like 911, please, please help me. And then we're not getting word desk work. We're pushing it so fast on our end and then we're not reciprocating that.

Man, that job priority for us goes way to the bottom. Way down. Quickly. Way down. Yeah, I mean, because right now, Kyle, how many, how many, just off top of your head, how many positions is your group working right now? Just accounting in general. So contract and perm. Man, we probably have two twenty, thirty contract orders open right now, which are usually the sales cycle of those is like a week. You know, we were putting consultants in and they're closing and broken them back up. And then harm, we probably have shoot, I mean, 500. I don't know. We'll probably at two to 300 in tack.

Yeah. And now we're doing some national stuff just like you on the accounting and finance side too. That's enterprise bill. So that's including that. I mean, literally just Nashville sitting in national seats. Probably probably half probably 200 which and the reason I want to bring that up to higher managers and also job seekers too like listen like You know you talk about recruiters not getting back to you and you talk in your higher managers like you're too slow Like listen we got like 300 orders in tech. We got to fill like literally one one of my colleagues Literally took a screenshot like the manager was moving too slow and literally the guy my my colleague took a screenshot and Just sent to the hiring manager like listen like you can't sit and and you wonder why I get any cans because here's our job board right now.

Yeah. We don't work. We don't work around your schedule. Correct. If you hire us, you're hiring professionals, we got to get on. So let's talk about in in Deb Jiet, thanks for tuning in. How's the Laravel market? I would learn Node. But if you're going to learn Laravel, I think you're going to be fine. Kyle, that was tech talk. All right. So I do want to wrap up. We got seven minutes and again this 30 minutes goes by super freaking fast. Yeah. I was talking about some leadership tips because you and I think a lot of the same. I think you and I are a lot of like in the way we lead.

I think I think we both obviously have our pitfalls. I want to get a little real heal here. Yeah. Real here. What's been the biggest thing that you've worked on that you sucked at this year and then I'll share mine and obviously knowing for other leaders to improve on just so. Well, I just got funny. It's just kind of timeless. I just got my kind of review back where I had about my boss, three peers, and about 12 director ports kind of a value line. I never got mine. I don't know how we need to work on that. We should get yours. I'll make sure we get that.

So anyways, I would say there's three areas for me is I have a tendency to drive really hard of just getting things done and wanting things to move. And so with that, things do pretty successful in getting things done. But sometimes it's just I don't listen as much as I probably should and slow down and so I'm trying to slow Down just because people are like he's just gonna get it right. I'm sure he's right. I'm not gonna say anything Which is not good, right? So that's number one number two. I'm just trying to and this is I'm actually pivoting this this week I'm just trying to show up More So talk about that you and I've had this conversation off air.

Yeah Yeah. So I think for his leaders, I think the biggest thing is just like people want, I mean, for me, it's like I show up to meetings. It's not like I don't, I'm not saying showing up to meetings. I show up to my meetings. I'm responsible. I have a call with you. I make the call. I'm just saying I blow off the small stuff. And so where it's like, Hey, the tech team's getting together and I'm like, Oh man, that's not really me. And y'all do your thing. And then all of a sudden I'm not able, it just hurts the developing and relationships, right?

And then if I show up, they're like, wow, he's, he's here for this. Like, he's Yeah, it matters. Like, it just, so I think it's just like supporting people. And so just, I'm just trying to the small stuff that I'm like, where there's a baby shower for somebody today, I'm in town, I'm not traveling, I'm showing up. Right, I'm just gonna be there. And so it's not like, but I just, people have said, saying, hey, you have better relationships with others. The reason being is because I work with them day to day, but I can do some things to improve on that. And I think showing up in spots that I normally wouldn't show up in is a big step.

100% and then third thing. Do you have a third thing? I do listening that. If not, no, probably, no, probably, I mean, for me, I think better. Sometimes when I disagree or if I know what you're saying is not going to work, I'm quick to not I'm quick to cut off and say, Hey, here's what we need to do. Like just stop fixing all the time. Yeah. So you, so you're Gary being your truck, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and so I'm just trying. And so I think that comes down to, you know, a little bit of feelings and I can learn some things too about maybe why somebody's perspective is a certain way.

But I think just slowing down. If I had to group it, slow down, listen, ask questions and just show up. Man, I think it's so good. And it's so funny because I'm sure my 360 is probably going to be the same. I think one thing that I've struggled with in marriage and business, my old team that I was managing gave me a really hard time with it, was basically like, hey, you don't listen, right? Like when I'm talking to you, you're still on your computer multitasking. So. Yeah, I have put down my, I will say putting down your phone is big time in meetings. Yeah.

That was a couple months ago, or not a couple months, that was a year ago that I got that kind of feedback or just like they know when I check out like Kyle's checked out. and I'm like, sorry. And sometimes it happens when I'm not in getting, so it's just kind of, it's a bad hole. And so come to a meeting phone, put your phone down on the table, helps, or just don't bring your phone at all. The problem with not bringing your phone to a meeting, then you don't know where to go next, and then I'm getting text messages, where are you? So that happens, and then you're coming out, getting feedback that I'm late to meetings.

You see the cycle I'm in, right? So it's like you try to fix one, and you got another problem. So it's a balance. Absolutely, and then again, same thing with me when it comes to slowing down, you know, I think, you know, I move really fast and I think I got a lot. I got to realize that other people don't move as fast as me and that's okay. Like, that's fine. And I think a lot of times I get frustrated like, man, why can't people move it? Like, why can't people, so that's something that I've called just to be totally honest with you during my time with this new transition that I'm doing.

Like that's something I've really tried to improve on is like. Yeah, but it's also the same time as pushing people to do. Sure, 100% Some people just sit around and they're like, well, what should I do? I'm like, you should go do it. Yeah, I'm just gonna do it. Yeah. Like just go, go engage, go call, go make the call, go sit and have the meeting go do. And so that's my biggest advice for people that are like, well, me and my next thing, like me just start doing something. Yeah. Just start going, you know. So. Real quick, Gabrielle, it's good to see. I'm glad you're tuning in, whether it's at the end of the beginning, I appreciate it.

And then, Elliot, to answer your question, when does push come to shove on the mentality of hiring junior more, junior developers with the passion to learn over only hiring. Listen, this is a whole nother topic in and of itself. Totally. I will tell you this, I think the reckoning's coming where companies have to get creative when it comes to hiring. Like Vaco, our group, we're getting creative. We're hiring people with no experience. We're hiring people with experience, but not really intent. I mean, we're getting creative. I think there's gonna come a reckoning. I think we've already made huge strides in the junior dev community with getting junior devs hired because companies realize they can't chase after seniors all day.

But I think companies just- Well, I had the money. Yeah. I'm sorry too. Yeah. I mean, I think you guys are some good dev, good junior folks and coach them up. But you gotta have a couple senior devs to coach them up, right? Exactly. And that's kind of the weakness with a lot of organizations. So right. That's the end of my IT talk, by the way. That's all I got. That's the extent of it. Last thing I always want to leave the individual with kind of their last platform, Kyle, thanks for joining. It's been 20 a minute. Yeah, man. Just pure joy. What's the last little bit of advice for job seekers and or hiring managers entering in 2022?

Man, I think the biggest thing is just for hiring managers, just make the decision. Just hire. Just hire. What's the worst thing that's going to happen? It's a bad hire and go own it with your boss and say, hey, I thought this hindsight is 20, 26 months later, not working, they're not meeting expectations. Like quick to hire, quick to hire. right? It's my thing to hire managers and then to candidates my whole piece would be like evaluate like the grass isn't always greener right and evaluate truly what your motivation is and the number one thing that people leave for is is their boss and the number one thing that isn't going to change more than likely is your boss so when you take a counter offer you're still in the same you're in before making $10,000 more a year.

And we already said what that equates to in a paycheck, not that much. So like make a move, be certain with it. And when you're gonna take a job, you know, taking the offer, showing the initiative, saying this is what I want, we need, when they give it to you, say I'm in, I'm on board and going with it, not wish-washy. So there you go, that's it. I love it, cool. All right, y'all, well, thanks y'all for tuning in today. I appreciate it, go play a little music task, We get out of here. Listen, this is the last live of the week. Like I said, I'm spending my next two days with the Vaco crew, so I'm off for the week.

I will see y'all next week. We have an entire week book next week of amazing guests, and then I'm off for two weeks for the holidays, and then we're gonna hit it at the ground running in January. So again, thanks y'all for tuning in. Go connect with Kyle. I would recommend you to connect with Kyle, even though he's in the county finance space. Like I said, he puts out good content. He has his morning show that he does. And not not not daily, but we're working on that, you know, daily every week or two. Where were you averaging? Like once or twice a month? Yeah.

Yeah, twice for sure twice a month. Maybe a little more. We're trying to crank it up a little bit. Yeah. Go connect with Kyle. You all have a good one. Kyle, I'm going to go ahead and bounce. See you. See you. Hey, you did it. You listen to an entire episode. And I am very grateful. Cause you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others.

And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, tailor at vaco.com or at Tdaston on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.