the art of freelancing w/ rob joseph

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals. We don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco, VACO.com is how to get in touch with me old fashioned email social media at T D S and T D E S S E Y N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. Bob, give the people what they want. Who are you? What do you do? We'll go from there. OK, cool. I have to say before I get to that, I feel like I'm going to radio show right now, which is super awesome.

So yeah, the music is awesome. So who am I? So I'm Rob. I'm from the UK. I am an Android app developer. I have been that for the past 10 years, maybe 11 now that we're in 2022. And I have been freelance slash contracting the whole time. And then aside from that, I have a podcast, coffee and coding podcast, which Taylor was on and the episode came out today. So, you know, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be plugging anything. No, go ahead. Hey, I'm not from me. No, go ahead. I'm not from me. Yeah, I was gonna say, so for people listening is an awesome episode, so you can go check that out.

But that is my two main things work-wise. And then, yeah, outside of that, I don't know. I like good food, all that working out. I have a dog, I have a house, I have a partner. I love it, man. That's awesome. All right, so let's dive into it. So Rob reached out to me to have me on his show, Coffee and Code, right? Coffee and Code. So he and I had a great conversation and, and so my brain started to, to kind of work. And I was like, man, like this guy really gets it. He's kind. He has a great demeanor about him. He understands freelancing.

So I was like, man, why don't you come on my show? And let's just talk about freelancing. So today we're going to talk about freelancing contracting. So if any questions you guys have, please thumb up in the chat. We'll get a man to it. But Rob, first and foremost, I want to dive in. How long have you been freelancing for and what made you go into freelancing? By chance, if I'm being honest. So I've been freelancing for, I start my first proper freelancing gig was 2012. OK. So, yeah, so that would be 10 years right now. Yep. And I got into it. So prior to that, I was quote unquote IT consultant, which basically means I work for a big corporate company and they put you on different projects.

So one project I was working with a super old programming language because they had government contract, VB6. So yeah, there was very, nobody knew how to use it. Where's your hand? That's gonna say, even on our team, nobody knew how to use it. So for me, it was literally just a case of Google and try and figure out why is this thing broken. And then I was doing support on websites, a whole bunch of stuff. And I really didn't like it. I knew from the first two weeks of being in this job that I didn't like it. And I wanted to quit straight away. But there was this stigma, at least around people that I knew, which is if you start a job, you can't quit straight away.

Because when you go to the next job, they're going to be like, why did you quit? So I was like, all right, I'll stick it out for a bit. I'll stick it out for about 14 months, I think. And during that time, I used to go home, I used to learn Android because that was fun for me. And then after about 14 months, I quit. And I was like, I'm going to try and do this Android thing. And my intention was kind of to build apps and not to get a job. And then it ended up being that's actually quite hard. And also you'd the money you can get for working for other people, freelancing, contracting is quite good.

So I kind of fell into doing that. And that's kind of how it all started. I love that. So great question already coming at Oscar VB. So I have a question already coming from a meal meal. Thank you for your question. How difficult was it to start in freelancing? And this kind of goes, this is a great question to me. because I kind of want to get a little nitty gritty with freelancing. So Rob, talk about, okay, so let's, I have so many questions for you. So, how did you get, so when you got started, were you just like kind of willy-nilly, like I'm just going to code, it'll work out, how long did it take before you really started to get serious and like taxes and setting stuff up, like what was What was the duration on that?

So my first app I released personally, so I've been freelancing since 2012, but my first app I released just for myself was 2011. And so it took me about 80 months before I had to get company and do taxes and all of that kind of stuff. But in terms of how difficult was it to start, freelancing, I guess at least from my perspective it's not any more difficult than trying to get a gig. The only difference is that you can't go in and be like, you know, it's not like an apprenticeship, right? You can't go into a job and be like, I know nothing, teach me, you have to know enough to be able to get you.

But to know things. Yes, but on the flip side of that, they're not hiring you to know everything. So like the first gig that I got, the code that I wrote for that, if I looked at it now, I would be like, this is trash, but it worked. and the people that were paying me were paying me for it to work. So it wasn't like it was a super high level freelance gig. It wasn't paying loads of money. In fact, I think, I mean, they, they were basically like robbing me if I'm being honest for what they were paying me for what they wanted. But for me, I didn't care because it wasn't about that.

It was about I need to have worked for somebody so I can get that next gig, that will pay me well and that will require more experience and kind of learn this. You got I love that. So, so talk to me about. Talk about how do you pick up your first client? How did that happen? Also, we got some more questions coming in, but let's do the first question. Again, TikTok, Instagram. I see people coming in on TikTok for sure. It's so good to see everybody. What, like, how did you get your first client? Okay, so something that me and you spoke about, and I'll just touch it briefly, is I released, I think, four apps before I got my first client, right?

So that was me building stuff that I wanted. I put it on the App Store. Some of them got like a decent amount of traction. They got downloads. They weren't making money, but they were making like, you know, different online publications were writing about them. So it was kind of getting a bit noticed. So when I applied for my first freelance gig, which I think I got it on like Elon's or something like that, I mess, I just messaged, you know, every, every Android project on there. And I was like, hey, I'm an Android dev. His four apps that I've done, his, some of the articles that I've posted about them.

And it looks kind of cool. because it was like, oh, the Guardian newspaper wrote about one of them and stuff like that. And we switched, like realistically doesn't mean anything, but somebody reading it, that's cool, right? And it just, it kind of was a bit of luck. So I applied to a bunch of them. One of them happened to be in London. So they were like, hey, can you wanna come and meet? So then I went to go and meet them. And then I met them, I told them, like, I showed them the stuff that I done. They were super impressed and that was it.

I love that, I love that. So, so there's a lot of questions coming in here. And again, for TikTok or Instagram, we are talking about the art of freelancing today. So feel free to ask any questions. But so Justin comes in with a great question. How do you set up a plan slash funnel to get clients? Oh, so literally Justin, great minds brother. I literally asked Rob this off air. Was it referrals or did you set something up to gather new leads? So man, talk about that, right? Cause like, so real quick, right? Cause I'm all over the place. You have contracting, you have freelancing.

Right. My definition contracting usually is with a third, another party, right? So if it's a recruiting firm or through the actual company, you're kind of in this ecosystem and protected. In a way, typically contracting, in my experience, the 10 years of recruiting is either 20 hours a week or 40 hours a week, right? Like they need you part time and they need you full time. Yeah. W2 usually, usually, and sometimes even benefits, right? benefits, right? So contracting, I think is a great gateway drug to like freelancing. Freelancing? Wild West. Yeah, right. So let's talk about, well, first off Rob, do you agree with me on that?

I just want to make sure I wasn't wrong. So, so yeah, no, you're totally right. The only difference that I was going to say is, at least from my perspective, the biggest difference is contracting at least in the UK is like what you said, right? They're like, it's not official because they can't make it official because of like government regulation and stuff. But essentially, They expect like eight hour days, five days a week. Whereas freelancing, they expect you deliver this thing by this day. So if they give me a month to deliver this thing and it takes me a day, this fine. Whereas we've contracted in, I can't just go in for a day, do the work and be like, hey, pay me for the next month.

That's the primary difference that I see as like what I'd like from doing. That makes sense. Awesome. So how do you balance leads and funnel? I mean, like let's let's let's dive into Justin's question Yeah, okay, okay, so so I guess so Probably like I was talking to you about before 80% I would say of my work is contracting right and at this point contracting is I don't really do any outreach like people come to me recruiters message me all the time That's that's it. I don't do anything for that but but but how did you do it before hand though? Yeah, no, yeah, so we'll get to that.

Okay, cool. So let's say, all right, so everyone, so when I was starting now, the first freelance gig I got, I just messaged all these people, I happened to get that one, great. The second gig that I got was a contract, and I got that because I was going through like job websites where they were posting contract enrolls, which again, like you mentioned, and I think it's similar in the UK, that's essentially, you know, it's a six month contract or something. So it gets posted on a job website. So I was applying for all of these things, and because I had apps, So I had built Portfolio plus I had worked for this other client.

So I had a reference and I built Portfolio. I applied to this role for a startup to get a proper gig. And it was like a proper gig. I didn't really think when I applied for it. Like looking back now, I don't know what made me think that I would get it. But I also knew that I was qualified to do it. So it was kind of a weird thing. But that's how I got it. But when I'm looking for freelance clients post that in the early days, that's all about like what you've talked about, which is networking. And one of the things that I've noticed probably more recently, because more recently, I noticed the way that I get most of my gigs now, is not through going to a meetup and meeting people that, you know, they might want to app build and stuff is through other developers.

So, okay. Yeah. So, so four, cause like I'm, I'm like, I'm kind of introverted, right? Like I don't like to meet ups. I don't like talking to strangers. All right, cool. High five. Yeah. Um, and so for me, is super easy to go to like a developer meet up where we can just chat about Android or iOS or whatever, that's comfortable, as opposed to go to like some random meet up where I know there's people that have got like funding and there's people that are like, you know, trying to get stuff, trying to get developers brought on for their projects and then I have to kind of go and pitch myself in a really awkward way, sell yourself to this person that you don't really know if they're interested and I don't like that.

So the way that I would do it now and kind of the way I do do it now is just from developers, you know, you work with developers, they learn that you're good. Somebody approached them for a role, they can't do it, they don't want to do it, they'd be like, hey, maybe Rob can do it. You go to meetups, you meet people, you connect with them on Twitter or LinkedIn or wherever. And it's the same thing, because like for me, like I said, right now, I get bombarded all the time with contract roles, and I can only do so many. But I can also refer other people, which I would know.

So if I met somebody at meetup and I was like, this guy sounds like he knows his stuff, I'd send him to you. and I'd be like, hey Taylor, no I can't do it but this guy can do it and suddenly you have this kind of referral screen that kind of works for itself and then obviously if you give people work they want to give you work back. So that's kind of the way that that kind of makes it much easier than trying to go out because it's really hard, at least for me, it's really hard to go out and find people that have money that also are looking for a developer that also you know you can have a conversation with so that they learn your skillset without knowing you at all.

So you're not, so to Justin's plan, how do you set up a plan funnel to get clients? Was it referrals or did you do something? So do you have, so like right now, do you have some, so like meaning from what it sounds like, you're in a good spot where you don't have to like start to worry about stuff, things just kind of go away. But like, yeah, in the beginning where you like, all right, I'm in a project for three months, it's coming to an end. Yeah. I mean, was it, was it early on? Was it, do I got to get back out there and network?

I mean, is that was like, you know, this project's about to dry up. I mean, what was your mentality from that perspective? I feel like that's like terrifying. I got you. I got you. So I guess, I mean, maybe I'm the wrong person for this question. And I'll tell you why. So the first, the first, like I said, the first, so when I quit my job, I made sure that before I quit, I had saved enough money that I'd like six month wrong way, right? I want to become an Android developer. I've got six months to earn money from doing this. And if I don't, like, I don't get a gig, I don't get a job.

If I don't get a finance contract, if my apps don't make money, After six months, I need to go and get a job and I'll just go back to doing what I was doing before then when I got my first freelance gig It wasn't paying a lot of money But I was paying enough but as soon as that dried up then yeah, I was looking for my next contract gig which paid more money and then as like so I went through that I was like nine months and that money that was getting paid for that nine months was a Lot of money and I didn't go and spend all of it So I think in terms of like to take the fear away and it always comes down to money generally speaking him is you have to have some sort of buffer.

So if your gig finishes today and you don't get a gig for the next three months, you're good. Because you also don't want to get into a position where I have to take the next gig because I need the money, but I don't want to do it. Or they're going to pay me less than I'm worth and stuff like that. But realistically, in terms of getting new clients, it's all like, at least from what I've seen, it's always worth a mouth. I work for a freelance client. I do a good job. Somebody asks them because they're in these circles, right? They're in these circles looking for funding and looking for other people to bring on and they ask you like, who built your app or built my app?

It's just details. So it's kind of like that. And yeah, the fear thing is definitely a factor. But I think if you manage, at least for me, if you manage your money well enough to know, like this is how long I have. That's what I was getting at, right? And I think this kind of goes into the next question too. And Brian, I'm definitely gonna get your question here in a second, but would you say maybe that budgeting, maybe one of the most important parts of freelancing? 100% 100% it's not just yeah, it's not even just so so like what we were talking about right if right now I work for myself, but I work for a company my company has to pay tax my company has to pay VAT So if you're giving me I don't know 10 grand to do a project.

I'm not earning 10 grand from that project I have to put away money for that. That's corporate tax. I've put way money for that That's VAT which is like I think you guys do you guys have a few in the States you do right? I'm not Okay, so here we have a state tax. I think, okay, so it's probably kind of equivalent. Yeah. So you have all the, like regardless of what it is, you have a bunch of taxes. So that money's not yours. So you need to know how much of that money is actually mine. Plus when I take, when I pay myself that money, then I now have to pay my own taxes.

So again, all of that money is not mine. And then once you get to that, you need to figure out, you know, how much do I spend and And if you are starting out and you are in a tight spot, then you just got to figure out ways if you can to spend less. Maybe you just don't pay for the gym for the next three months or something. However it works out. But yeah, a big part of it is managing money because also even now, I don't want to get into a position where April when the new taxi starts, I get a bill saying, my company owes £50,000 and I don't have £50,000 in it because I took all the money out and bought a boat.

Yeah. What, yeah, then Hilary comes in VATs, equivalent to sales tax good. I'm really bad at like selling tax stuff. So let's go have so many questions. This always happens when I have guess. All right. So Brian, do you have any tips on building your brain as a freelancer? I think so. So let's kind of talk about the mentality of the freelancer. Because I think it's a different mentality. I think I think if you're full time, salaried, listen, I'm not saying coast, because I think that's a negative connotation. But at the end of the day, you're kind of salaried. Like as long as you all burned the building down, like you're probably pretty good, right?

So talk about, so let's talk about first off about building your brand. What, if people want to start getting into freelancing, what are some just basic building blocks that they could do for branding? Okay, all right. I've got a couple and then you might be able to chime with a few more bucks. Off to my head, right, Portfoto is the number one thing and a big part of that quote unquote, quote unquote branding. Because you have to remember, like when, when, at least from my perspective, when we're talking about branding, it's not like you're going to become the rock. You know, not everybody is going to know who you are.

Branding is like, I apply for a role, somebody googles my name, and it's, you know, I come up in all these places. Yeah, I love that. I say that one more time. Say that one more time. That's, no. So, yeah. So the idea is like, because I think, you know, So I'm a huge fan of Gary V. Gary V talks about branding. And I know who he is, right? But I know I kick out on the street right now and talk to 50 people who never heard of it. But to me, that's a huge brand. But it's not. It's a huge brand in that niche.

And it's the same thing here. It's like when you're building your brand, essentially what you're doing is kind of building, you know, I mean, it is branding, but it's branding to a very specific targeted audience. So my best, yeah. So my best tips for that would be one portfolio. So if you're an app developer, if you're a web developer or whatever your thing is, build stuff that people can go and see. So if you build apps, release them, if you're going to build a website, put it up somewhere and make sure it's on your CV or your resume or your LinkedIn. So when you do go for gigs, even if it's a freelance gig, you could go to a meetup and somebody would say, hey, what did you do?

And you could be like, well, if you go to RobJ.com, I built that and I did this and I did this and people can see it. So that's part of the branding. And then outside of that, some of the things that I think are really good to do is like content because content is a really great way to get noticed. And it's also again, somebody Googles you, they'll, they even have to read it. They could just type your name into Google when it comes up with whatever you ever saw for me, Android, right? Yeah, it would come up with, you know, five articles about Android and a couple of YouTube videos about podcasts that have been on.

And suddenly it's like you've built credibility and you built brand because like, oh, Rob must be somebody because, you know, I Google this other guy and his name doesn't come up anyway. And I think so content is a great thing. I'm personally like, you know, huge fan of podcasts. One, cause they're super easy to do. And nobody knows, also another factor is nobody knows how many people listen. So the people that listen to my podcast might think I have a hundred thousand listeners, which I don't. But as far as they're concerned, like I'm the man because, you know, I have a podcast that they listen to religiously.

And for all they know, they're the only one that listens to it. But again, that only person might be the next person that hires me. So you're just speaking some truth. That's it right there. It's the one person I talk about all the time when it comes to networking. One person can literally transform your entire career and that could be the one literally you could have one view. Rob and I could have one listen today. We're not going to, but if we have one listen that hiring manager could be like, you know what? I want to hire Rob to do the Android and Taylor. I want to hire you to staff up our team of 100 people.

Yeah. And it's one person, one person. I love that so much, Rob. Real quick, let's go back to portfolio real fast. What makes a good portfolio, and I'm asking for me because at the end of the day, like, I don't know, like, I think portfolios are kind of dumb. Like, I never have any, but that's why they use recruiters probably, but I never have a hiring manager goes like, let me see their portfolio, right? So like, what have you seen makes a really good portfolio? So I guess for me, portfolio is really important when you start because you have nothing, right? You don't have any quote unquote experience, but you might be a better developer than me.

So for me, portfolio is all about building something that people can go and see. But once you get that first gig, you get that second gig, then I'm less, I care less about it, especially because I don't have any recent, I mean, everything that I've done contracting wise is probably under NDA. So realistically, you can go and get the app from the app store, but I can't give you something and be like, oh, I built this piece or anything like that. So for me, it's really, really important when you're starting out so that you can prove that you can do what you say you can do.

And then after that, your resume speaks for itself because you've got the experience. So other people can prove that you can do what you say you can do. I love that. Is your portfolio, is your portfolio housed like on a website? Is it like a PDF? Is it like, I mean, where is it kind of housed? Yeah, so originally it literally was my CV with links in it to my apps. And then I'd write, yeah, and then I'd write underneath. I'd write it literally like it was a job spec. So I did this, I built this, I did this because of this thing, and that would be it because I had nothing to write otherwise.

And then now, I mean, now my portfolio is you can go to a place store and type in Rob J and you'll see all the apps that I've done. And it used to be like 20 and now it's like five, but realistically somebody that's gonna hire me is gonna go and LinkedIn and see that I've worked for, you know, 15 companies in the last 10 years. So that now is my portfolio. But I think, yeah, if you're starting out, like the easiest thing to do is just put up a webpage, super easy, you could do like a WordPress thing, just have links on there. Cause really it's about, you wanna just be able to quickly tell somebody, oh yeah, no, I do apps, you just go to robj.me slash apps and all the stuffs there.

or you know, just go onto the app store and search for Taylor. And I'm there. Like that's all it is. It doesn't even need, like they just need to see that you've done something and then it gives you something to talk about in the interview. If there's an interview, so you can say I built this, this is why I did it. That, I love that. I love that. Man, time's already up. So is there anything, what else? What are we talking about? Man, so much stuff. We're gonna need to like have a follow up session. Yeah, for sure. Give people the last little bit. I always leave the last few minutes as a time.

And if you all have any questions, throw them up here. We'll try to get to them, but I have to bounce pretty quick here. But I'm gonna have another thing I have to run to. But with some encouraging words, Rob, to people now who maybe wanna get into freelancing that are scared, maybe kind of give them some advice, maybe give them kind of a cornerstone, or not corn syrup, maybe give them kind of like a, like a, maybe like a way to get them started. I don't know, just, just give some words of encouragement as we wrap up here and some general thoughts. I mean, if people are thinking about getting, starting and freelancing, the, the main two things that I would say, if you're scared is like, one, if you're scared because of money, then you kind of got to figure that out before you get into it.

Even if it's just like, I've got enough savings to cover me for three months. That's plenty. That's kind of what I hear, right? kind of get your savings out for three months. Yeah, yeah, that's good. And if it doesn't work out in three months, just do it again. And then at some point in the future, you get another three months. And then my second thing would be if, the thing that I hear a lot is people don't think that they are good enough to be freelancing. And they think that freelancing is like, I'm sort of sort of a mythical creature that, in five years time, they're gonna be at my level and they could do it.

And the truth is that's not true. Like you have all levels of freelancing, you have all levels of contracting. And at least personally, I feel like if you're good enough to get the interview, then you're probably good enough to get the job assuming that you do a good job in the interview and if there's a co-test, et cetera, et cetera. Because they're not gonna waste their time bringing you in if they don't think that you've got the skillset. So those would be my two bits of advice. And if you're looking for someone to get started, like definitely networking, especially like, I would say especially with developers because you could go to a meetup, a developer could be on a job, he needs help and you're pretty junior and that's good enough.

and then he might want to give you the gig or she. And then aside from that, there's plenty of websites online. Like I think Elon's the still one, I haven't used this for a while, but all of those ones, you can literally just run through all of them, put up a portfolio and apply for everything. And if you get one hit, that's your first gig, and then that leads you to your second gig and then you take it from the top. I love that. I love that. Well, Rob, that was a blast, ma'am. Thanks again for hanging out. Y'all, thank you again for tuning in to Guidance Councilor 2.0 this morning.

You all go connect with Rob Rob Rob use Twitter link it. What do you use the most? I use none of them if I'm being completely honest, but if yet, I know I know I know I know but if you want at the enemy I get I get the DMS. I don't generally like scroll And by at loco I'm going to say that. Rob J. got me. Has been my dog. Rob J. got me. Also, that's one of the sweet hands. Rob, thank you again for hanging out with me this morning. I think you stay on real quick afterwards. You can chit chat. We'll see you again for hanging out today.

Listen, tomorrow. Exciting news tomorrow. Unicorn Finders is back. So I've had a lot of questions. People are like, what happened to Unicorn Finders? What about this? What about that? Here's the deal. That unicorn fire is back. We are going after it now. The boys, we're going to kick it off tomorrow, just hang out a little bit, kind of reintroduce ourselves what our goal is for the podcast again for this year. We took a little bit of the hiatus just because we've been so busy. All three guys on unicorn finders have had their best year of hair for years this year. So that is why we have not been going live.

So we're back. So excited about that also. So I'm going live at 9.30 tomorrow morning. And also, well, I'm going live with Ted Newwood. So Ted is what many consider the pioneer of the first developer advocate kind of in the US. That's what people have told me. I've never met him. I don't know who he is. So tomorrow's going to be a blast. You won't want to miss it. So two sessions tomorrow, 9.30 in noon. You will see my face on the internet. So Rob, thanks again, buddy. I appreciate you a ton. and y'all have a great thing today's Tuesday. Y'all have a great Tuesday.

No, Wednesday. Good day, okay. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode, and I am very grateful, because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes, and I myself rarely finished an entire episode, so I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others. And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, tailor at vaco.com or at T-destin on all social media handles.

And I hope you have a fantastic day.