from startups to corporate w/ brian dougherty

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to, to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco.com is how to get in touch with me old fashioned email social media at t s and t d e s s e y n. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. Brian, enough of me running my mouth. Give the people what they want. Who are you? What do you do? And we'll go from there. Awesome. Yeah, my name is Brian Dardi. I'm the chief operations officer and chief technical officer of Jumpstart Health Investors, which is a private investment firm based out of Nashville that focuses on early stage healthcare investment, specifically at scale, right?

So we have over 130 assets in our portfolio, which would be portfolio companies, working in all areas of healthcare, everything from remote medical devices to nutritional supplements, to consumer products, software tech, I mean, you name it, we got it. So there I help run all the fund operations, all the corporate operations, and also keep us on the front leading edge of using tech to really scale our processes and support a portfolio of that size and magnitude. I love it, I love it. So we're gonna dive in today. So I was chatting with Brian off air. So I've known Brian for a long time. And one thing I love about the show is I get to meet amazing people.

But what's hilarious about it is I meet people about 15 minutes before you go live. And so I was like, Brian, I know of you, give me a rundown. And Brian brought up a really cool thing about his story about how he's gone from this startup world to more of an enterprise world or corporate world. So Brian, I want to kind of dive into that. As leaders within IT organizations, what I guess talk about your story and some of the biggest differences that leaders should consider when jumping from maybe a startup environment to a corporate enterprise environment. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I've done a few startups to various success, really cut my teeth with a small startup to mobile security in the early 2010s, and build it from the ground up in terms of building on the engineering team, a product team, a QA team, all of it, right?

Then did a little bit of software services work with the second monitor startup, and then decided to make the shift over to corporate, right? Specifically in correctional healthcare with a great company called WellPath, formerly called Correct Care Solutions. And that jump was a little jarring, right? Like when you're an engineer and a leader and a much smaller firm, there's a lot that comes with it. It's really easy to always kind of get alignment with fewer people. And then also just really know what's going on and where you have an impact, right? So when you move into a corporate environment, right? For reference, my largest company to date that I'd worked with prior to WellPath was about, I think at our height, we're about 15 individuals.

And WellPath is over 14,000, right? So a bit of a jump, right? So when you move into a much larger organization that has been around longer, has really found a way to operate effectively in a specific vertical, you don't have that ease of getting clear requirements or really even clear alignment, not just with your superiors, but across the organization. You have to be much more intentional about that. And then also you're walking into situations that have been successful largely, right? But there's been more time for things like technical debt to potentially accrue, right? And for personalities, potentially the language than for a while, for people to lose motivation, right?

And that's just kind of something that unless you're very, very intentional about, as a corporation scales up, any corporation can ball victim too, right? So moving into any corporate operation from a small operation, it really comes back down to, how do I get alignment? How do I understand the why? And then how do I motivate my team with that alignment and the why, right? And it's a different ball game on the corporate side doing it. Well, and you kind of answered my question, my next question, but I definitely want you expound on it. You know, this just popped in my head. How do you create buy-in?

So, so for, I'm a huge college football fan, right? Huge college football fan. I went to University of South Carolina, like we had a decent season, we crushed UNC at the end of the year, so I was very happy about it. But the one thing that was fascinating is like, you had our coach Shane Beamer come in, and it wasn't his players, right? At the end of the day, it was Bill Will Muschamp's players, right? And all that being said, it's like, how do you as an IT leader come into an organization and create buying with not your people? Right. Right. So glad to hear your cultural ball fan.

I played, I played D3 ball and I guarantee you at some point there will be at least one or two football analogies during this. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I talk football day on the show. Fantastic. So yeah, so I mean, a couple of tips for going into that, right? You know, one of the best forgotten when entering a new organization is do not make any big moves in the first 90 days, right? Like, and that served me very well, particularly in this position, right? There were positions, you know, individuals, et cetera. That was like 45 days. And I was like, this doesn't make sense.

Why are they here? They're ineffective. Do we need to replace these folks? You know, yada yada yada. But then by day 90, it's like, okay, I can really see what motivates each individual, right? I can see where this person can be impactful, right? Yeah, they might be a shitty tied in, but good lore, they could kill an offensive guard. So it's figuring that kind of stuff out. So that's the first step. The next thing is really getting a clear assessment of what the state of the team is from cultural perspective. Like, do they work well together? Do they understand why they're doing what they're doing?

Is there any values good or bad that the team really clings to currently? So basically, just getting an assessment of, again, I'm an engineer, so I could define the problem. Get your problem done. Here are the things that are benefits that we can work with. Here are things that we're going to have to try to correct. And then after that, it really comes down to, you've got to make your team. And your team can be the same people, but it's got to be a culture that you own, you lead, and you can really buy into. So with Well Path, after seeing the team struggle for the things that many softer teams struggle with, having some issues with releases and rollbacks and things like that, not necessarily hitting the commitments, their velocity being below, right?

Below, right? In working through that, it's like, all right, we now understand the problem. Now let's work with the team to get an understanding of what they want the culture to be. If you can't just go and dictate it, daddy, You can't be Moses coming down off the mountain, right? Like you got to, you got to talk to them and say, what should our values be? What things are important to you, right? What do you want the mission, not just for the company or the IT department to be, but our team, right? Like you have your team's specific mission and values and get buying from that and work with them to really let them guide it, right?

You can't like fake it and try to manipulate it. And say, well, I got to figure it out already. Let's try to get them to the spot. It really has to come from them to really get that long term buy in. But once you've done that, I did, there was a presentation I gave the team that lives in infamy called the reset, right? Where it was basically like a PowerPoint where it's like, you guys are struggling with all this, here's why, right? Like, you know, you can complain about what's been done in the past, how we got there, you know, all the things there, drag me is down for the next 10 minutes.

But after that, that's the past. It's a new beginning. This is our new vision, our new values, our new mission. This is the stuff that we're coming together as a team to focus on and really work on. And this is what we're gonna be. And then this comes back a little bit to a football part of a day's to confuse, right? In this case, I had every member of the team signed a letter of commitment that they were going to actually follow this mission, vision, and values. And then they're gonna do that. I love that. It's very clear that if you're not down for this, and for Aries, you don't want to, there's no shame in that, right?

we can get you to go be successful somewhere else. I'll do everything I can to be successful somewhere else. That's part of being a leader, right? But if you're gonna stay here, these are the rules we're gonna play by and I'm not gonna be the only one enforcing them. We're all gonna be able to live on each other. I want my team calling me out if I come in and start violating the values, right? If you do that the right way, you know what works when it starts becoming self-regulated. Right? Like we see the team calling each other out and say like, dude, look, I know it's tough right now, but positivity is one of our values and you're getting negative.

Don't do that. That's not the one we do. Right? Like, you know, as somebody says, oh man, this user's an idiot. Why can't they do this stupid thing? This user interface is so obvious. It's like, man, empathy, right? You got to be empathetic with your user. That's not the way to look at these things. We need to figure out, put ourselves in their shoes and figure out why this isn't effective for this. So like, when you see it start regulating, start self-regulating, that's when you really know you got a culture that's really kicking on all minds. And then everything else, all of your lagging indicators, all your KPIs, it's amazing, your commitments start going through the roof.

Meeting your commitment starts going through the roof. The curiosity of your developers, right? Which is a thing that so many organizations overlit from a product perspective, right? That starts peeking up. You start coming with cooler ways to do things, better features. It just all grows from that culture of building each other up. So yeah, so that's a place we were successful there, that organization, love that team. And so I have another follow up question, but I wanna give you more people tuning in. Chris, what's going on, Emil? John, it's great to see you. Christina, empathy is my fav. Yep, absolutely same here. So Brian, you mentioned something that I wanna go back to about taking maybe a poor tie-down and making them an offensive guard or whatever you said.

I don't think leaders and organizations do enough moving around of personnel. Absolutely. And I think that's huge, right? Because literally, again, football, South Carolina's, I bet y'all tuned in this morning, didn't realize how we're gonna tie in football with hiring and leadership, but here we are. But we have this all-star player, we've been trying to play him on tie-dent in South Carolina, and then for the bowl game, we moved in the wide receiver and hit three touchdowns in 300 yards, right? And it's like, I just feel like a lot of people in organizations, like we hire somebody, And it's like if they don't work in that one role, we either let them go or we don't allow them to go somewhere else in the organization.

Right. And to me, that's just asinide. Yeah, it is. So I think there's a couple of things there, right? And this comes back to, you know, as leadership and as management, it's so important to have clarity of what you're trying to do, right? Like what are your goals, what are your objectives? How do you know if you're getting there? What are your key results, everything around that, right? Because if you don't know how you're attacking a corner, a release, a specific problem the business is experiencing an opportunity, good luck, right? You don't know what's like, okay, great. Any college football coach that goes in game plans knows who the star players are and where their potential weaknesses are.

And then they look at it and say, cool, I've got this set of resources, each individual has different strengths, different abilities. How do I align those most effectively to mitigate the risk against their strengths and maximize the impact against their week Right. And in a good team, if the leader knows their team and understands that and also understands what the organization is trying to do, it becomes one big optimization problem. Right. So it's, it's very possible. Right. Like, I mean, I've, I've seen guys that are very have struggled horribly at dead management, right? But are just the most amazing lead from within software architects you would ever dream of, right?

You know, I've seen individuals that, you know, are, you know, have really struggled at project management, right? You put them in a scrum master role, right? Blifts everybody up, right? And all the times it's not even like these huge moves. I'm not saying you're gonna take like, you know, a few A person and then make them, you know, your senior architecture. Sure, I mean, any more than you could take me and make me a four-two-odd receiver, right? We're just built differently, you know? But it is very possible. But it just comes down to an understanding of your team, what makes them tick, what can it be successful, what can it be successful, what can it impact to understand the goals.

There is one piece to be careful of here, and this is one of my big screw-ups in my career, right, of which I've had many, right? You want to be very careful about reducing the scope of responsibility of a very strong player, even if the intent is to give that player focus, right? Now that can be very important, and it can be very effective, but you have to be very aware when you're doing it, right? Because it's a different thing, right? Especially this is when you are at scale considerably. You can take somebody that's been fairly effective at a larger role and put them in a more focus role.

If you're not very careful at handoff, it isn't seen as like, okay, now I can be the best quarterback ever because I'm only going one way. It's like, well, I care about the defense too and I don't have an impact on that. That could be demoralizing. That's one place you got to be a little careful of it is when you're reducing scope of responsibility. So, so why, so, so you're saying don't do that. Why, why would a manager reduce the scope responsibility for maybe an A player? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it comes down to, we'll keep going with the football now, right? Like, I mean, if you're going both ways, right, that means you don't have the time to practice on, on each side of it, right?

It also opens yourself up to injury on each side of it to burn out, right? Like, you know, the most effective person can only be so effective at any level of breath, right? Like, I mean, when You're in high school and the challenges are less. A lot of players play every down of the game. You get to college, the really strong players might play both ways, but even then, most players are focused on just offense or defense. When you get to the NFL, even your bad-ass players, they're gonna be completely focused on a very narrow position. It's very odd and rare, and it does happen.

like you see like a quarterback go up for a pass. They do it's a trick play, right? It's not because they're really going jumping back from wide receiver. I mean some do that but it's pretty rare. Right. But like it's the same thing as your organization scales up your problems and your opportunities both are going to scale as well, right? And the complexity you know is going to scale, right? Sure. Everything you can to simplify it will scale as well, right? So you got to put your you gotta make sure that your team continues to adapt with the growth of the organization. And I think that means, look, you could handle all of this before, but now we're big enough and you just need to handle this.

And eventually, probably the first one just need to handle this. And it keeps getting more specialized and more focused. Yeah. So, and a few more people, Chris, good morning, Yolanda, David, it's Gracie all this more. Thanks for hanging out with us. So, I wanna pivot a little bit. We're already halfway through our news would happen. I tell you what, 30 minutes is not enough time, but also, ain't no one got time I need to do I for like a three hour experience, like some of the podcasters out there. So I want to dive into leadership and leadership track. So you said one thing, and I don't know if you remember verbatim, can you do verbatim what you said off air about the growth track and your thoughts on growth in companies?

I mean, so take the current process for building technical leadership is completely ass backwards. Right? That's what I wanted. You take individuals that are extremely intelligent, extremely specialized, right? I mean, I saw a post the day about somebody asking, like, should I get in deep learning CSS, right? Like anybody that's a CSS master knows that it's a dark art, right? The ability to really troubleshoot CSS problems, and then take that to how do I build a team, a culture and manage them? how do I deal with cross-functional organizations, how do I deal with manage up to leadership? That's hard stuff. It takes time, it takes energy, and it takes training.

And many engineers haven't necessarily had that the natural places you get that training growing up. I'm not saying all engineers are geeks, right? They're not. There's a lot of bad-ass engineers than our geeks. But I'd say per capita, most of them haven't been and played really deep in the high school football or other sports or been in really large fraternities or whatever. Not saying all these organizations are great, just opportunities to really work and lead a group of people. Sure, sure. So you take the people who are the most technically competent, generally because they want to grow in their career. They see that management's a track where it can get more financially incentive, it's just natural to go up.

I mean, you don't go hot so high when you're focusing on deep details and subject matter expertise. So organizations see that, they're like, great, we wanna retain this person, we want them to have more of an impact, let's make them a manager. And at no point during their technical career has anybody been focusing on that growth track, right? Have they been talking about any of the stuff that we've been talking for those 20 minutes? And then they put them in there, they struggle, right? And then the team starts to struggle which generates more technical work And then they use the only tool they've got in their toolbox.

So they jump in and start trying to impact the tech and the whole work, which puts this in this negative feedback loop where now they have less time to focus and do a good math here. They get more of a chip and everything falls apart. And in the organizations where I've been successful building that piece of it, you've got to be very intentional. At Well Path, we had a professional growth process that put in place. And the first thing was like, look, man, do you want to be more of a generalist? Do you want to be a subject matter expert or do you want to be management leadership?

We're going to go. So say that. Were those your three buckets then? Yeah. Say that one more time. So do you want to be more generalist? Do you want to be a subject matter expert? So generalist, more wider technical depth, right? For technical breadth. And a subject matter expert, very precise technical depth. Like I want to be the most badass DBA there is and understand the inner workings of SQL Server and where I can go consult on that someday, right? Generalist is more like, cool. I'm gonna be a software architect. I gotta understand how all these systems were, probably something that, how product comes into it, yada, yada, yada.

And then the management side is like, I wanna build teams, right? Like I wanna be able to motivate and take these other folks and really bring them together to produce a product and produce an output. And the skills that you have to hone there for each one of those are very different, right? And the growth trajectory on that is very different. And what work you should be doing on a week, month to month basis to grow those skills is different, right? That's an opportunity that a lot of IT leadership misses is if you understand where your team wants to go, there is always work to be done that you can align with those goals if you're intentional about it, right?

If you've got somebody that wants to go and do management leadership, great, right? Like give them a small subset of the stories and say, cool, you're responsible for managing this team, you know, right? You assign them. You work with the Scrum Master and figure out how we should construct this team from the individuals we have, right? Like, you can do that, right? If you guys want to be a deep subject matter expert in something, like, great, find a score in the backlog and say, go look at this, go tell me about some of the pitfalls, come back with a new framework and tell me why that's good or why that's bad.

I mean, like, there's ways to do it where you're not creating extra work, right? And the work you need to do is getting done, but it's still also doing double duty to grow the individual in the direction they want to go, right? But you've got to be thinking about that. It doesn't happen by accident. And I don't know, I just love those three buckets too, man, because I like, and this is why I love interviewing different people on the show because no one's ever said that specifically. I also want to go back to this just pop in my head. We don't have to re-talk about it, but I want to give you a shout out, Brian.

But I had a CTO from a startup in Raleigh yesterday, and it's not a of coincidence that both of y'all said the same thing, values. Right. Right. So literally the CTO yesterday startup goes, we write our values in our job description. It kind of self selects the people with an organization. Here you are talking about values, how it's important to get rid of the same page. You're making people sign a letter. So props to you, props to Chris on the show yesterday, leaders if you're watching this. And that has me thinking, I'm literally sitting here. Like me interviewing people is like multi-fold. It's like, I'm trying to learn.

And they're like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, crap. Does like do we have values on my team? Like I got to figure that out, right? So again, shout out to you, Brian, for doing it well. And then obviously Chris yesterday, because that's incredibly important. So, so let's go back to leadership track thing. And how do you set people up? Okay, so you have generalist, specialist. Have you talked about the consulting part yet? And kind of what that is? Yeah, yeah. So I mean, that's the subject matter expert part of it. Where it's like, I just want to get really good at one thing. I want to be like, amazing.

That's right. I want to be as one of the most bad-ass external integrations as possible. Right. And you have individuals that love the technical detail in my newshes so much. They're like, great, we can get you there. And you can make a lot of money be very successful growing in that path. But it's different strokes for different folks. And it's not one of any of them. Generally, it's like on a triangle. And I'm kind of like 20% this one, 10% this one and 70% this one. You can map all the roles in an IT organization across all of that, in my opinion. So you say, cool, this is the kind of role you wanna go to.

You wanna go towards DevOps, right? Like, this is where it could be the most impactful and be the happiest, you know? But again, right, you're sitting here and you're constantly evaluating talent and where they're best fit in the organization. And I mean, am I wrong? I feel like organizations just don't do that. The, it was something that I added uniquely to the organizations I've been in, right? and everybody wants to have a growth track, right? You want to talk about retention and everything? Yeah, money is important. Obviously, that's fine, but like two things, right? Have a culture where everybody feels like they're in it for each other, right?

You always play harder for the person next to you than for your coach, right? And then two, make sure they know where their career is going and they feel like every day they're getting better and they're growing towards something. If you have those two things going on with the team, sorry, Taylor, you're not gonna coach them, right? like I mean, they're not gonna go anywhere, right? Like that's the key, but to do that, you've got to have that level of understanding of both your organization and every individual on your team at that personal and professional level, and you have to genuinely care about them getting there, right?

And sometimes that means like letting them go free, right? I mean, there have been, I've always said, the most important part of being a manager is making each of your team members as successful as possible. Even if that means it's not in your organization, right? So if I can't make you better anymore and I can't grow you towards your piece, you shouldn't be coming to me batch one saying, look, I'm starting to think about other opportunities. I should be saying, look, man, we got to figure out, you're gonna get you more stuff to do here that's more fitting, move you up, or let's figure out to get you somewhere to where you can become even more of a bad.

I love that. I mean, that's the way of being a leader and a manager is, is that piece of it? If you do that, your team will get better. You'll get more people to fill those gaps so you can grow. There's generally an economic benefit of doing that because you can bring in someone more junior. Like, I mean, it all works. You're all doing it for the right reasons. So you feel good about it at the end of the day. Absolutely. So we've had some comments come in and then I want to wrap it up here. Christina goes, when I work with mentees on career development, I sort them into three buckets.

A lot of times the general says they realize they're a generalist, absolutely. Chris comes in and goes, I really like this approach to employee development. I've never worked with anyone, including my best managers that thought about it this way. I've had a lot of freedom to pursue the things I want, but never had someone structure work around my skills and interest. Again, this is what I'm so thankful. I got this out of Brian this morning because I think that was just absolute gold. James comes in, James, it's great to see you. James is a fellow guest on the show two weeks ago, James, two weeks.

Do you feel that gaining trust and respect to the leader has to come from originally coming from a subject matter expert and moving up? Or if there's general knowledge of many things, respect and trust can still be gaining by the subject experts you're managing? Yeah, that's a great question. So when I joined WellPath, it's a .NET shop, and I had never coded a line of .NET. Okay, right. I will tell everybody right now. I am a terrible coder. Okay, anybody that's worked with me on a technical project, I can read, I can debug it, I can find the problems with it very quickly. But if you want me to write something from scratch, do not have me on your, you know, your codathon T-shirt.

That will be a liability. So it really comes down again to understanding, talking to each individual, understanding where they fit in, where they think they fit in, and really understanding the organization itself of what you're trying to do to where you can connect those two. If you're always honest and humble and be a servant leader and just say, yeah, you're brilliant at this. I can't do what you do. Because especially on the tech side, I can't in many places. You can still get that respect. And you get it by listening, but then also holding folks accountable. I say, look, I wanna have your back all the way.

I will always take the praise last and take the blame first, right? They'll follow that. And then when you show where you're lifting them up, right? And giving them what they need. Like they asked her something, make sure you understand the why, and then go get it or tell them why you can't or why you're blocked, right? Then that's what builds trust. It's not being some technical mega-mind overlord, right? It's really understanding what drives everybody. And my last, I would argue now, I think the world, When I say this, I'm trying to frame it appropriately. I feel like there's more of a desire now than ever for leaders to be vulnerable.

Yeah. Like literally, I feel like as a leader, if you say, I don't know more often, I think you're actually probably going to garner more trust. Or you tell me. Right? Like, I tell you, you do this. Ask questions and don't do it to be patronizing. No. Yeah. Do it from a place of doom. Like, how would you go about this? Right? And sometimes we'll take the advice and sometimes you don't. And when you don't even say, hey, look, that was really appreciated. Here's what I'm thinking. This is the way we're going to go about it this way, right? Yeah. Make sure I'm in the same page with the why.

Absolutely. And Barrett chimes in. Barrett's another former guest on the show. Company's value retention and growth very little these days just makes no sense. It costs so much more to replace somebody at the same time. Barrett wanted to do what it takes. So people want to say, yeah, again, I mean, this is why I get guys like Brian on the show to kind of shed some light on how to keep people. And so, and I will tell you this. I was not able to pull any people away from Well Path when Brian was there. So I think that says something. So all right, Brian, last minute or two wrap up here, any final words of wisdom for the guests today or for the viewers today, anything around the job search?

Do you have any tips for job seekers right now? Any more tips for hiring managers? Just your last little bit of wise words of wisdom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for the hiring, sorry, for the job seekers, The key thing is make sure you get goal alignment, right? Like, you know, understand and be able to explain how you're going to come in and have a big impact on this organization, right? And why the hiring manager should be excited for it, right? That is the biggest key you can use in a negotiation. If you can tell them it's like, look, I would be really excited to join if I had this much more because here's the impact I'm going to have, there, you'll knock it out of the park, right?

And then, you know, kind of going back to the last comment for the hiring managers. None of this is particularly complex, but none of it is easy, right? Like it takes time. It takes time for your team. It takes time for you. You have to be intentional about it. It's like the hour a month pizza party ain't gonna do it, right? You gotta be able to put the structure in place and go in and do it. And that's why a lot of the organizations don't, right? They don't have clarity of what they're trying to do. They're not able to explain it. So people end up hiding in the ambiguity, and that can be self-preserving for a little bit, but the smart folks in your rock stars, they're gonna see through it, and you can't build everybody up and away without the clarity and alignment across the organization.

So it takes time, it takes intent, man. I love it, I love it. Well, Brian, thanks again for coming on, man. I appreciate it. Stay on real quick as we end. But y'all, thank you again for hanging out this morning. I hope you all enjoyed it. I learned something. So if I learned something, hopefully y'all learned something. Go connect with Brian on LinkedIn. If you are in the Nashville area, reach out to Brian. I'm sure if you have ideas or things you want to communicate to Brian, definitely reach out to him and ping him. Tomorrow morning, unicorn finders 9.30 a.m. Central to my other podcast because a man can't have too many podcasts.

We basically highlight companies, things doing things more unicorn-like. We have never had somebody in the wedding industry. So we have a tech startup in the wedding industry on tomorrow morning. So you won't want to miss it. 930 AM Central, go connect with us at Unicorn Finders. We have a LinkedIn page. I was about to say a Facebook page. We do not have a Facebook page. A LinkedIn page. And then Friday, I will have a render ATL guest on the show. Her name is Genesis. She is at Facebook or Meta or whatever they call themselves now. So go check that out. And y'all have a great one, Brian.

Thanks again for hanging man. and we'll see you all tomorrow. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful, because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others. And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it. Please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again.

If you need to reach out to me, Taylor at Vaco.com or at T. Destin on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.