discovering your super power w/ heather downing

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco.com is how to get in touch with me old fashioned email social media at tdesint. D E S S E Y N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. you enjoy the episode. They're giving the people what they want, who are you, what do you do, and then we'll go from there. All right, hi everyone, I'm Heather Downing. I live in Kansas City, Missouri, in the nice middle of the States.

Which is fantastic by the way, can't confirm. That's barbecue in the world, bar none. I've been around the world and I can tell you it's true. I don't know how I've done anything done up there. I had barbecue and I was out for the afternoon. You know, we don't have it every day, That's the secret is only donated every day. But I don't think I can go usually more than a month or so. I live very close to some champion smokers the year. Smokers meaning, by the way, not the cigarette kind, but the kind of like, leave your brisket in for hours and hours low and slow.

I know too many of them, I smell it all the time. So you can't ignore it. I love it. But anyway, so I'm a senior developer advocate at Octa right now, but I've been in the technical scene for about a decade now. And I think probably my main go to is that I speak at conferences and talk to engineers about different aspects of their journey. A lot of it has to do with self-reflection because I'm very technical, but I'm also very human and aware of the human side. So I tend to talk to people about what they really want, what really matters to them during that process.

I love that. I love that. And I'm excited I've Heather on. Like I said, she gives some great gems on the internet. So I wanted to capture that in this show. And so I want to go and dive in Heather because we were chime all these topics. There's so many topics. So the first thing I want to go into is around hiring, especially around the contracting side, it's what we talked about. One thing I get a lot of times is like, I only want direct hire. I only want direct hire, which is totally fine. But I think there's a lot more out there than a lot of people don't know.

But then also what do you look for too when you hire just some general tips and tricks? So if you want to go and kind of break all that down. Oh, absolutely. So I've done some contracting on my own. So I had some experience with it. My very first year or so I did contracting on top of working as an intern. So I know what it's like to start out and it's terrifying. I totally understand that. There is a great person if you're interested in contracting to figure out how much to charge and stuff. And his name is Dawn Felker. He actually created my fitness pal, was part of the team there.

And so he has a great Instagram about what to do and how to price yourself efficiently. And I would highly recommend you follow him. But on the other side now, I've hired many contractors and I can tell you what I would look for and there are four things. Okay, first thing is regardless of your skill level, are you willing to communicate quickly and clearly? I know that sounds like a given, but I'm telling you that maybe it's just the fact that we are a little bit unique in the people that attract to development, but maybe patience is not a strong suit. If you don't know how to communicate professionally, there is another channel that I recommend you also follow.

It's called Charisma on Command on YouTube. and they teach you how to talk to people. I love that. I love that. I love that. Like, hey, how do I deal with this if I feel like I'm in this situation? And they're so good. And they use, like, movie characters and celebrities to give you examples. So it's cool. Charisma on command? Yes. So good. Oh, yeah. Just like you, actually, I'm an introvert. But I practiced to be strong. So it's just printer. Yes. It's just printer. To become more of an extrovert, right? I would say I'm still not. I have to prep myself every time before I interact, but I've learned so much because of that channel and several.

So highly recommend. Okay. The second thing I look for is a collaborative mindset with others and I'll tell you why. It sounds easy. You're like, oh yeah, I'm a team player. Are you? Because a lot of times I will hire a contractor who's never in their life had to do a PR with a team. Meaning pull requests. They've only ever been able to be a cowboy on the side doing their own thing and their way of working probably works for them. The nice thing about being a contractor is you can be a lot more outside about it. You're not going to get like a performance review, right?

It's just going to be we hire you for the next term or not. But I will tell you that more and more contractors are considered collaborators and not just hey, go build the thing. So can you put your ego aside just for a second and answer question to the rest of the team of what's happening. That's the second one. Third one is willing to say that you don't know, and I can't even emphasize this enough. I know I'm paying you. I get that, but I want to know if you haven't done something before, that doesn't mean I'm not going to give you the work to do.

The expectation is now set that you have to go do some research. I don't know one contractor that that is the great ones I've had that isn't like, oh, I always wanted to do this in this framework or hey, I know about that, but I haven't touched it yet. I can look into it if you're willing to pay for research time. See, take back the power and say, hey, I don't know this, but I'm happy to go and spend some of my hours to research it. Now, be, you know, decent about it. Don't take like six months. But I would say that that's actually a selling point.

I have never said no to a contractor who said, Yeah, let me take some time and I paid them to research. So don't be afraid. And the last one is self-awareness about what you uniquely bring to the table, aka what is your superpower? You have to know what is the thing that you are good at. And I know that that's so hard because I grew up very, very humble. I'm very like, you can't, I don't wanna look at this. Also on the other side, you're looking at the amazing Titans in the world who are in you feel so much more accomplished. You feel like, I don't know.

I just like doing this. I like learning. That is a terrible superpower. Don't talk about just like learning. No, what your superpower is what you bring to the table for others. What do you bring to the table for others? I like that. I like that a lot. Those are great. Those are straight fire. I want to give more of shout outs to people tuning in. Justin, Tessma, Trey, Christopher, Nicole, Ricardo, RJ coming in about communication. It sounds like it's a given but it's not, no it's not. And Christina, what's going on? So I also want to kind of just ask too in general, what's just some general awards of encouragement right now for the job seeker, right?

Because I know the market's crazy. I know some people can get beaten down. I know even senior engineers who are interviewing that want to stop interviewing because they are so tired of the interview process. So I just want to continue to trend towards the interviewing side of things. What are just some general words and occurs that you have right now? Oh man, first of all hugs to all of you. I know it sounds weird. We are experiencing scarcity in all aspects of life right now, whether it is food shortages on a chair. So it is job seekers understand that it is very frustrating for companies to find people.

And it's very frustrating for you to want to make sure that you've covered your bases, and not just interviewed one place and taken the job. And it is exhausting. Right. What is what I will tell you? Be willing to time box your like interviews. So I couldn't do it every day. Like I decided Mondays and Wednesdays after five. That's smart. If you don't time box it, you're going to get drag it out into things. Now in the final stages, maybe you can bend it. If you're really, really feeling like you might actually work this company. But in general, nobody's going to care if you say, oh, I only have time on Mondays.

Yeah. No, no, this isn't going to care that's looking for it. They're like, great, that's just when they're available. So don't feel like you have to please everyone plus your current job. Yeah. It's okay to set up healthy boundaries with that. That's the first one. And the second one is don't be afraid to bounce the offer off of other developers. This is such a competitive landscape. not giving anything away by talking to another dev at your level of love. Like, it's great that you have this offer, but they also probably have offers. So don't be afraid to say, is this fair? Is this a fair amount?

I love that. I love it. So, so, so do you have your core group that you kind of go to? Yep. Same same. But I didn't for 10 years. Yeah, it's for me forever. You know why? Because I figured nobody else cared about me at all. And which is, I'm like, I guess it's true, but it's not. Like at some point in time, if you really get along with somebody, even if it's a former coworker, that's a good one. Am I, do you think you're worth this? Because they've worked with you before. I like that. And I'll tell you what, stay in contact with the people you worked at if you got along well, if you got along together and you got, I got each other staying contact check in on with them.

Because eventually they're the ones. It's not even really about writing a review or anything. It is about the continuing career process because I have gotten people I knew before hired at my company and people that I knew got me hired at theirs. And it's like, it's kind of cyclical, you know, so don't be afraid to foster the relationships from your previous companies. Well, so well, first off, I love. So Heather prepped me offline that she speaks in the sound bites and Heather, you're fantastic. You're giving one, two, one, two, three, four. I love it so much. I do want to kind of transition now, because like I said, I want to cover a lot with you today.

So we're going to hit the high points again. We'll have to have Heather on again so we can deep dive a little bit more with these topics because there's so much to go over. I love what you talked about just now about people and relying on people and bouncing around jobs, not bouncing around, but like going with people that you know. What's the importance of building community? I know people are gonna hear something like, I go like, damn, Taylor, you bring it up community again. But like in your mind, like why is it so important? And what are some things that people can do to build community?

Because listen, Heather, some of them may not be as great of a speaker as you and go speak at conferences, right? Some people may not want to go to meetups, right? Some people, so how, why should people build community and what can they do to build community? Community will define your career. Why don't we just go ahead and call it off that. It's great. It's for hanging this morning. No, it's true. I mean, if no, I have a talk I give about this called the visible developer you could find it on YouTube. And if nobody knows you're there, it doesn't matter if you're brilliant. It doesn't matter what you're giving it.

I love that. I'm going to go listen to it now. You should. And I mean, that was, of course, before we had even more options than we do now, social media. Unfortunately, like whether you like it or not, the only way you can connect with people if you're not in person and you're not at a job and you're not going to a conference, then you have to connect on social media. I know many people don't like social media. I think just like the job search, as long as you time box it, I think it's okay. And you just appreciate that it's a tool in your toolbox.

I love that. Love that. That being said, I have had my fair share on the receiving end of like, hey, can you teach me how to do.net? Like straight out. And I'm like, oh, OK. So understand that you need to do some research beforehand and ask them targeted questions. There's lots of people that I can't tell you how helpful most of the community is. I think most of the community does want to help. Even the assholes want to help because they want to feel like they offer some knowledge. So I'm just saying that you don't have to like them virtually, but they may offer like a tech like knowledge about where to go for things.

You know, if you can talk to somebody, even just for a few minutes, a year, a few minutes a year, you'll put them on their mental radar. So they'll remember. I love that few minutes a year. That's so true. What, talk about how you like to be approached, right? Because that's what I ask a lot. A lot of the DM games are pretty bad. I preach on what makes a good DM. My DM game was terrible in dating. You can ask my wife fortunately. She allowed it. Talk about how you like to be approached because I think that's incredibly important. I think people need a lot of help with that.

And it's fair, you know. Just to give you again, you guys have a virtual hug here. You probably went to school or a bootcamp And nobody talked to you about the other 80% of the time, what you're going to be doing in this job. So you got like coding is never going to be more than 50% of your job now. I'm going to interrupt you real quick. I put out a I put out a poll on Twitter and LinkedIn. And it was like just the freeform poll. So I was like on average on average. What percentage of your day is hands on the keys? 25% was the average.

I know. The heck y'all doing? It's crazy. I'm not but I understand it's the problem is is that remember the first thing I said when I was looking for was communication If you're a developer today and you're starting today or even if you've been Adele for years, but now you're changing which area of expertise you're in Understand that now you have to know how to how to communicate to people. If you don't know, you can't just be, I'm brilliant, and I just don't know how to deal with it. People won't deal with it. Gone are the days of like the Steve Jobs of the world where you could just be an asshole and do things the way you want.

You have to communicate. If nothing else to communicate your value and your work. So that has to be something you learn and not just passively. Learn it as soon as possible. yesterday, get with somebody that you think is, you don't understand why they're always getting all these, in demand, why are they in demand? You can talk to him about that. Corey House comes to mind. Why are you so in demand? What is up about that? And it is the way he communicates. Yes, he's very comfortable. I haven't gotten Corey in the show yet. Oh, he's great, definitely get him on. But when it comes to people reaching out to me, Yeah.

I have this kind of, again, be very targeted about a specific thing that you need help with, not a huge subject. Yeah. Because I would probably send you a plural site course link. Like here's how you start the basics of JavaScript or something like that. like, how do I get into a conference is a really big question? I would say, you know, there are that I have like a standard reply I would give. And that's a fair target of question. Sure. But I'd ask you, why do you want to? So know why you want to do something. And that's hard. It could be really honest.

Like, I just want to make more money or I just want people to know what I have. But say, hey, I want this. Right. help me with X. So tell me what your ultimate desire is, but also how I can specifically help you. And then I will respond much quicker. I think I think the job search and really just career, now being in your career in general is purpose and intentionality. And I think you could technically say both are very similar, but I think you have to have the purpose with it, intentionality back and vice versa because I think a lot of times people, I think try to just float.

I feel like people, this is maybe a terrible analogy, but it's the spring and it's getting warmer and I'm all about a lazy river. Right, I'm all about a lazy river, just floating down a lazy river. And I feel like a lot of people in their careers are floating down a lazy river. And like, you know what, if I bump into one of those alcoves and I stay there, I'm good, I'm good, or just keep floating. And the thing is though, is like, I think tech allows that a little bit right now because of how in demand skill sets are, you can have a lazy approach, but the ones that excel like a Heather, like a Corey, like all these folks I've had on my show, there's intentionality and purpose behind it.

So I didn't know if you had any more color for that comment. Oh, absolutely. When it comes to being intentional, I will say that asking for help is actually a bi-directional exchange. So if I coach you on something or give you a journey into something, you need to pay for your coaching or training in reciprocity. That means you have to apply and actually do what you're guided to do and share back with me with the results that are good or bad. If you don't share back what happens and you just disappear into the ether, you haven't paid for your coaching in my opinion. Oh, I've never had someone say that.

I love that so much. I love that. Because if you do that, you're doing two things. One, you are repeating to somebody else what happened. And if the results were bad, often they will adjust things with you and give you another coaching session. Even though this is all not paid right at this point, right? This is just something asking for help. But when you do that, you do something for the mentor or coach, Right? You communicate, yes, number one, that approach did work. And so you don't have to necessarily refine that party process, but also that you're grateful. There's a lack of gratitude in our industry.

It's really awful. People still, oh, okay. And then they go do the thing. And then they forget about where they got that knowledge. They forget about what blog they learned that on or what video they learned that from. Please pay it back because it does so much because if you say thank you, they'll remember your name. I love that. I also, you know, I'll never forget. So I moved up to music. I moved up to Nashville for music like everyone else. And I, you know, I was so I fell into tech recruiting. Well, my buddy is still doing music and I mean, he's doing very well.

And he and I were hanging out on his rooftop downtown. And he and I, and this was a few years back, you know, both of our careers were kind of starting to take off a little bit. And I wasn't playing music, obviously he was. And I was like, man, like what do you think it is? And I asked him this. And again, right? Like he's, I love him, Deb. He and I both went to South Carolina. He and I were both the business school. Like he's business savvy. But at the end of the day, he's like a, he's a rock star. I mean, he's a musician, right?

All over the place and very creative. And he looked at me and he goes, you know what? It's gratitude. And I was like, tell me about that. Cause that's my answer too. And I was so excited he said that. And he was like, man, I'm just lucky. He goes, I'm lucky to be a Nashville. I'm grateful to be a Nashville. I'm grateful to do music. I'm grateful to meet all these people. He goes, man, I'm just grateful. I'm grateful that I'm here. And I was like, man, I feel the exact same way. And Heather, I think you nailed it perfectly. I think people are all dealing with something whether we like it or not, right?

Every single person that is watching the show, me and you, we all have our battles, right? We're all going through our personal battles together right now. I can't tell you the amount it goes, how far it goes for a simple token of gratitude. Right? When someone tweets me that I help them with their career or Heather gets a DM that she helped them level up their speaking skills, right? Like it means more than I can ever say. And so Heather, I just, I love what you said there. I love that. And that's part of how you build that community too because you get etched in their memory that you are not just a taker, you're a giver because the act of saying thank you is giving, right?

And we get a lot of people draining on our energy and as introvert, I'm sure you can appreciate that. That this is how we're going to at least. This allows me not to get drained. Exactly, and this is just a good way to understand if you've got the right people around you and whether or not you get assimilated into that crowd, right? I do think that there are levels of community. I think there's like basic levels And then I think there are decision maker levels. And then I think there are legend levels that they tend to just like any other society group together because they get each other.

And being grateful is one way that you can start moving within those groups. It's just the way that it goes. I have discovered this. Yeah, absolutely. So as we have around a few minutes to wrap up here, Heather, do you have a hard stop now? because I know I looked you just for, okay, good. I just want to be respectful of your time. So, because your boy was having technical difficulties. So let's talk about leadership in tech. We touched on that. You mentioned talking about up communicating upward. That's never been spoken before on my show. So I definitely want to dive into that. The importance of communicating up.

Yeah. Let's break that down. It is a hot topic right now. I can tell you this. I've had great managers. and I've had managers that didn't care about me, noticed how I didn't say terrible managers, I just had managers didn't care. I think that's the ultimate terrible, they just didn't care. If they weren't good at their job, but they cared, man, I can work with that. I know that's weird. It's so true. Listen, I've told my team, I don't know what the hell I'm doing sometimes, but we'll just get through it together. Yeah, but see, that's so disarming. Because managers, basically in a way, hold a couple of the keys to the reasons that you're there.

They're usually in charge of how much you make. And they're in charge of whether or not you're miserable day to day. So, that's a pretty powerful position, right? So the idea of managing that person above you is like, what does that mean? That sounds disrespectful, it sounds wrong. Like what does that mean? or not in my job description too, right? Yeah, so here's the thing. We can talk about the realities of humans and the workplace and the history of tribalism and such. Or we can talk about what's written down in a job description, which one would you like to talk about? Because the realities are what you're gonna be in.

How many of you have, like, said, okay, I can do what's in this job description, get there. The job is actually not at all that job description, or very little of it. I know that if Taylor got a hold of job description, he could probably fix that for you. Yeah. I'm like, what? Trying to change the world with one job description at a time. Oh my God. But the reality is that it's a lot. It's like saying we're dating, right? And when you're looking for it a partner, and I'm like, here's a list of all the things, but really all you really need is somebody to just say good morning to you every day and be kind when you're not feeling well.

That's really like the majority. That's marriage right there. I don't, that's totally marriage. Sometimes it's just a good morning and just a hug. Right, so understanding that in the job description thing that there are priorities that you're pretty much gonna have to do and usually there's not more than two or three that are the biggest, right? Those, if you focus on those and you don't do the others as well, usually you're forgiven because you're at least hitting those big priorities. So that being said, know what your priorities are going in. Help your manager or help you and keep fighting and hitting clearly. And here's the example.

When I felt like I had nothing to lose, when I said I had to lose, I'm a big freity cat. Like I'm so afraid of bad interactions. I don't like bad interactions for the long time. I'm like, yeah, same. But I learned a lot by listening to Tim Ferriss podcast on so stoicism. And I'm like, okay, so what if I took the emotion out of this and didn't give a, you know, didn't give a care in the world about what would happen with what I said? Because I'm a naturally kind person, I'm not going to just be mean. But what I would say is, hey, you're my manager, I know that my job is to make them look good.

Believe it or not, your job really is to make your manager look like the hired good people. So how do you help them help you achieve that. How does it become like a cyclical for you both? And you say, Hey, the way that I work best, that is a way to manage up. I work best by XYZ. I love that. Even if it's not in the policies for your company, it doesn't matter. If you communicate, I need this. You are giving something that is actionable to a manager. All they have to do it say yes or no, They don't have to think about the answer, like, hold on, let me create an imagine the answer that takes more brain cells and they are not just managing you.

They're managing lots of others. Correct. So, give them the solution first by saying, this is how I work best and if basically if you take this box for me, I will give you my best is what you're basically saying. And a lot of people don't know how they work best. They're just like, I don't know, just tell me what to do and I'll do my best. That sounds great. That means you have a willingness, but it doesn't mean that you're effective. So being effective is different. Managing up is not about telling your boss what they should be doing. It's about telling your boss what you should be doing.

Managing up is telling them what you feel you need to do to bring that value to the table. I love that. And I think too, I think for the individuals who are listening as well, when it comes to upward communicating as a manager myself, I like when people come to me and tell me, right? I'm sure Heather can say the same thing too, right? Like we appreciate if we don't have to chase all the time, right? The energy. Yeah, it's so much energy. It's so much energy. It's so much energy. And also, too, I will tell you this. One thing that I do, and I don't know, I guess this is along the same topics, it could be communicating upwards, two things that I do when I try to communicate problems to my management.

First thing I say, which is kind of funny, so I start an email or I start a text that says, hey, or the conversation, no action items needed. So literally, the moment I step into a meeting of my manager, I'm like, listen, I'm going to start by saying this, you don't need to do anything. And then I start talking about what's going on. What I would, what I also like to do as well, when I speak with my managers and how I would like to be spoken to as well is like, Hey, listen, like, communicate to me as if you were the manager as well and how you would solve the situation.

Right. So kind of, kind of like what Heather said with like, Hey, this is what I need. When I approach any other managers at VACO and I need something from them or there's a conflict, I kind of say, hey, listen, like, I'm going to address this, but here's how I'm going to address it. Because here's how I think should be done. What are your thoughts on this? Because this is how I'm going to approach it. And then the other management could give you maybe another thought or two on it, too. But again, when it comes down to what Heather said, communicate upwards, constantly communicate upwards, because it'll go so much further than managers having to chase after you.

Absolutely. And that right there at first felt very bold to me. Especially when you're in the first five years of your career, you feel like you don't know anything because you feel like that. But it doesn't matter. Like, I know it feels overwhelming because it feels like now you're doing your job and you're not doing your manager's job. Your manager's job is to get things out of your way. And literally the bolder remover. And they're the ones who unblock you. I love that. I'm gonna have to take my LinkedIn the bold maneuver. It's true though. Like the best manager I've had don't micromanage. They allow me to think about the situation.

However, when I have taken a left turn and I am because I'm angry or it's usually at another coworker, right? Or I have an idea about this that is great experimental tech, but it's not going to work for a bank who is five to 10 years behind the curve. It's great that you want to do this, but it's not realistic. That sucks, because now you as a manager, your job is to also redirect and detour you back to the path. That's part of it too, is that there is a little bit of a bumper lane like you're bowling. They do a little bit of that, but your job is not to tell you how to bowl.

So, you know, that is hard because that makes you feel like you're kind of hanging out there, and you're like not really sure what to do. That's when that's where the value comes in asking your I especially encourage asking somebody at your level. If you feel like they're doing good and you're like, hey, so how did you how did you do this for your workflow or where did you go to learn that? That is really good collaboration. And then yes, you can go ahead and ask a senior if they're there. Right. You might be the senior and that's where I think it's the worst. I do think mid-level to a senior is the worst because sometimes people give you way too much looseness.

Yeah. They give you no direction and you actually still need direction because you're not like architect level but you still have some idea. This is where you can emerge. This is where your superpowers come out, right? It's be like what do you like to do about this problem? Now, I have to put that like in context, I worked at a company that loved people, but I hated what we did. I don't like marketing. I don't. I think that me working on the Snapchat filter is not important to the world. But that being said, what did I like about what we were doing? That was the problem that we were solving.

I liked the scale problem. How do we know it's going to work with all these people? And so then I just zeroed in on that and then I didn't speak at a team meeting until I'm like, hey, do we have an idea about scale? All you don't have to talk all the time and have your opinion on time, but you could just pull in your manager and say, Hey, I was thinking about this. Is this the right direction? Yeah, make it yes or no. Anytime possible on your one on ones, which by the way you should be having, if you're not having, go above them and ask for one one.

But you need to come with two things, tier 101, in my opinion, for your manager. Come with an anticipation of what they're going to want. Don't make the mask it. Just say, hey, this is where I am at, by the way, on all my stuff. So good. So good. Yeah. And the second thing is tell them what you're going to do next. Because that gives them, this is what I've done, this is what I'm going to do next. And then all they have to do is adjust or say yes or no, you would be a dream person to manage. Right. Oh, yes. Yes. And if you don't know what to do at that meeting, talk to someone outside of your company.

Because sometimes your uniqueness is not to be an echo chamber within your team. It is to talk to people outside that are in other aspects of your industry, to bring in that outside perspective. is what gave me that is that I knew that no matter what we really needed to do, conferences and person again. And I know that that can be controversial to some, but I'm like, I know that that will yield results for us if we do it because outside of my immediate team, nobody was agreeing, but I was like, Hey, this is why. And I got to bring stats to them. And I was like, this is why you should do it.

And once we did, we had a stellar year because of that. And so don't forget that you can get advice for your management situation outside of your company. Those are not the only people that can help you. Heather, I could chat with you for hours. So let's wrap it up. For episode part one with Heather, we'll definitely have a part two. Which is some last words of encouragement. Always leave last like minute or two just where you can kind of say some things that on your brain that maybe we didn't discuss anything to the hiring managers or job seekers that you want to impart with them as we wrap up here?

Oh, man, this is going to sound a little cliche, but don't be afraid to dream about the next big thing you're going to do out after this job. We're exhausted right now, but part of how we get out of being burnt out or I'm a little concerned about where to go is to if you had all the knowledge, what would you do next? And if I could be, I want to work for NASA, I want to work for Tesla, I want to work on this amazing project on my own. No, have that North Star. If you don't have your North Star, we're just doing this day in and out.

But know what you want to do next. The next big thing that feels a little bit out of reach and it will help continue to propel you through your career and connect you with the right people to where all of a sudden one day that is going to land in front of you. Boom. I love it. I love it. Well Heather stay on as we wrap up when I end it so I can say bye to you. But y'all have a great one. Again sorry for getting a little late start this morning. Stream guard was not being kind to me. So please go Ken with Heather.

Like I said go follow her on Twitter. That is her that is her username. on the screen. Yep. And go care with her on LinkedIn. I was about to say Facebook. Go care on LinkedIn. She is an amazing, amazing resource. And I'm very grateful to have her in my community. So I'll have a great day tomorrow morning. I have a fantastic guest, Gabe Deafram, South Florida. He's the CEO and founder of G2I. He's super involved in React Miami. I'm going to be down there in a few weeks hanging out with those folks. So You won't want to miss it. His story's incredible. I will tell you this.

I'll let him say it, but he was very sick, took time off, got healthy, and now understands the importance of work-life balance. So we're gonna talk about that tomorrow. So I'll have a great one. Heather, thank you again for hanging out with me. And we'll see you all tomorrow. Peace. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode, and I am very grateful, because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes, And I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store.

I want this to be discoverable to others. And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, Taylor at Vaco.com or at Tdaston on all social media handles. and I hope you have a fantastic day.