setting boundaries w/ shaundai person

full transcript

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco.com is how to get in touch with me old fashioned email social media at tdesint D E S S E Y N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. Chanda, give the people what they want. Who are you? What do you do? And we'll go from there. Hello, I am Chanda Person. I am a senior software engineer at Netflix. I am also a community organizer for React Robbins, which is a community dedicated to the personal and professional development of women and non-binary folks who are JavaScript and React enthusiasts.

On top of that, I'm also an egghead course instructor, and I'm currently working on a course on TypeScript called TypeScript for JavaScript Developers. So if you're interested in learning more, go to TS4js.com. That's TSF-O-R-J-S.com and sign up for updates. I'm a mom. I'm doing a lot. Yeah. So, and I'm happy to be here. And I'm also one half of the Taite Day Day show, which is like, it's making my year. Like we're going to have a graphic. We need shirts for renters. I'll walk around with Taite and you'll walk around with Day Day and then arrows. Like I'm with him. All right. So we're going to dive in today.

So Shonday had a had a really good thought. So I always send like an automated email through Calmley. Shut up, Calmley. You're not using it. You need to. But basically she came back with some amazing thoughts and something that I'm specifically struggling with right now and it's work-life balance. So let's go ahead and dive in. So Shania, I wanna go and kick it off first and foremost. Let's talk about your story, how you got into tech. And let's talk about some boundaries that you dealt with getting into tech. So I'll start there. I don't wanna really do too many questions. Yeah, yeah. So I tell the story a lot, Or people know my origin story.

I am a career switcher and I switched from sales into engineering. So if you know anything about sales and I'm sure Taylor you know a lot about this, it's like the same energy. You're always on. Always. Yeah, there's never any downtime, even Christmas vacation, holidays and things like that. If the customer wants to sign something, you're getting on the phone and you're walking them through that contract. So I was dealing with a very intense sales job, and I will say that I am very, I was good at sales and I was always on. So that was very demanding. Also a mother and a single mother at that, a mother of a now four year old, but at the time that I was switching into engineering, he was too.

And yeah, so I was dealing with all that and just like regular life. And then I was trying to learn how to code at the same time. So there was a lot going on, but I was determined to move into engineering. There were a lot of reasons why I wanted to move into engineering. Like I knew I was good at sales, but I didn't think that it was the place that I wanted to be for the rest of my life. And I never saw that career path progression. When I looked at the people who were sales managers and director of sales and things like that, I didn't ever see myself in those shoes.

But I also didn't see myself as an engineer either because I had all these stereotypes in my head of what an engineer actually does. And I thought that they're just dorking a little dudes with glasses and diet coke. I'm not looking at you and describing you two. They have bleached hair and they have beards. It's crazy. And sometimes they work hard that it's wild. So yeah, so I was like, that doesn't fit me either because I'm pretty social. And I didn't think that there was any place for people who are social in engineering. So fast forward, I had an epiphany where I decided to kind of pick up coding as a hobby, something that I wanted to try on the side while I was on maternity leave.

And I gave myself like an hour a day or half an hour a day to learn to code. I found that I was like staying up until one, two, three in the morning coding because I loved it so much. And I was like, man, I'm going to make this work because if, you know, like I, if I have all these different responsibilities and I want, like I'm actually looking forward to spending all this time on coding, I should be doing this for a job. And so, um, once I made that decision that I was going to move into, um, into engineering, I had to make some serious decisions about how I was going to set boundaries to get into the spot.

As a salesperson, when you first start as a salesperson at a company, you're given this universe of contacts that you can reach out to that you're supposed to sell to and you're given a number and you're like, I have to figure out how out of this list of companies, I'm going to meet this number with my number of sales. So it takes a level of prioritization where you say, okay, I don't think that this company is going to do that. I think this company might do really well and they also would make a good potential Customer so you really have to just cut out all of the other things and kind of say no or just kind of be react reactive Everything else and so I use that mentality as I was getting into engineering and I was like what kinds of things can I do without right now?

And that was coincidentally watching Netflix. I don't need that right now like I don't need to watch Netflix I strongly recommend watching Netflix though, because... Strongly recommend my company, but if you're trying to learn something, don't watch it. No Netflix. I should say Hulu. I cut out Hulu. I cut out HBO Max. I cut out a lot of the social stuff that I was doing. And I had this what I call maniacal level of prioritization. And so the thing that we're non-negotiables for me is my son. Obviously, like, if I'm not there, he can't survive really. So he can't feed himself. That's first. Second is I have to do a good job at my job, the sales job, because if I'm not making money, then I like, where am I going to go from here?

And then the third was that I'm going to get into engineering. So I, oh, and also I wanted to have like raw card abs. So I'm like, I'm working out. Like can't sacrifice that. So I made kind of a schedule for myself. It wasn't perfect. Like I would say, okay, during the mornings, I'm going to make sure that I get in a half an hour workout a day. And then I'll spend this much time with coding, this much time, like between these hours, dedicated parent time. And then this, like I'm shutting off my computer at exactly five o'clock for the work stuff like it's done.

And then, you know, every day would be with a two year old, you can never, I know you can really like, schedules get crazy. Things aren't perfect. But over time, those little moments where I was saying no to this, saying no to that saying yes to this, and being very intentional about my time, it added up. And I was very quickly able to move into engineering. I think, and I hate to put numbers on like time wise because I don't want people to feel the pressure of like, oh, I'm not hitting this certain time. So actually people need to know though. I mean, people need to have some sort of expectation.

Exactly, yeah. And just know that my path isn't gonna be the same as your path. You have different things that you're working on. I had different things that I could cut out of my life. So I won't even tell you how long it took, But I would say that if I wasn't as intentional as I was, I absolutely, it would have taken a lot longer and it would have been a lot more stressful. So, and I think so first off, we've had a bunch of people chime in. James, a former guest on the show. It's great to see you Connor, my guy who's at Netflix.

Shanda, do you know Connor? Connor, I've seen your name so many times, but I'm gonna get you back in. Connor's awesome. He's a national. He's my guy. So William, it's great to see you today. I love it. Dooley. Thank you for your kind words, man Chris, it's great to you Pia Cristina. Hey, Yolanda is gonna be at render a to yes I'm talking about right there. William. Thanks for thanks for TS for JS. I love that Tyrone, it's great to see you Tasha Victor Randall commenting on the the coding time warp is too real and then intentional learning is powerful. And I want, I love that you brought this up.

I've realized after managing multiple recruiting teams and scaling a team currently from zero to seven now, people are wildly inefficient with their schedules. Oh gosh, yeah, yeah. Wildly. Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. And you know, I don't, it's no judgment because, Yeah, it's hard and it's a skill that you need to practice. Like, you know, I had the advantage of being able to practice it from 12 years in sales and having the experience of putting in the time in the wrong places. And I forget what the, there's like a quadrant, right? So think of a box with four squares. I wish I could just draw it out for you, but just imagine a box with four squares, right?

And then there's the important and urgent on both axes. So they're important and not urgent, urgent and important. So you want to, as much as you can, focus on the important and urgent stuff first. And then non-urgent stuff needs to be treated as non-urgent. So I try to keep that in my mind, because I'll find myself last night, for example. And again, you don't have to be perfect. You're not going to be perfect. But I had set some goals for myself for this week on things that I wanted to get done. and I found myself on Twitter. Yeah, girl. And, geez. Need I say more?

Like, I'm just like. Well, but I want to comment on this too because what Shanday is saying is what I've been saying for the longest time with a job search. In my opinion, I think if you are struggling with trying to find a job while you have a job, you need to delete every streaming app, every social media app off your phone, butt linked in and or Twitter, right? But because I think for me, I think so many times, I talk to so many people that have jobs, right? So I volunteer, and I volunteer my time at Nashville Software School here locally and speak a ton to new grads coming out.

That mostly have jobs. Like Taylor, what do I do? And I'm like, well, what do you do before you go to work? What do you do when you get home from work? What do you do after you eat? And that's something that I've had to like clamp down tremendously. And it's very hard. And I love what Shani said, you need to pick your truths or like your main things, you need to pick those. So if you're watching the show, after this show, take out a pen and paper and write down what you really want to accomplish either this week or this month or this year, and then build your plan around that and build your day around that.

So I want to, I want to move in to, you know, kind of Netflix, you know, we chatted off air a little bit about how I feel like everybody is overwork themselves with COVID. And so, you know, I have a guys group here in Nashville. All of us can't hang out anymore at lunch now because all of us have taken on too much during COVID. So, Shauna, what talk about your experiences taking on work and then maybe get into Netflix and maybe some some frameworks that Ryan's given you to, to keep that work life balance. Yeah, so this is something that I still struggle with.

So I'm kind of talking through a lot. Oh, same. I can always struggle. Yeah, it'll always be a journey. So I moved into engineering from sales during COVID. So the first part of COVID, the first like six months or so, I was still in sales. I took my son out of daycare. And I had him here at home full time while working the sales job full time while and like learning to be an engineer and trying to get that job at the same time. So there was a lot of stuff that I felt like I needed to do. Partly because I had this this timeline in my head of like, this is what I want to do.

And this is when I want to have it done by And also because I had this guilt and I know a lot of parents can relate, especially moms, like this mom guilt where you feel like you have to spend every single moment of your time with your kids or like make up for something like, oh I have to make up for the fact that you're not able to go to daycare right now because we don't know what's going on with COVID. So I was taking on so much and I burnt myself the hell out and I didn't realize that until like way beyond it was too late.

So once I moved into engineering, that was one thing, and I could kind of take a sigh of relief. And I was like, all right, well, now I'll start to get to the stuff that I want to do in life. Like I'll start decorating my new house. I'll start doing this and that. And since I had done all of these things to get, and I'll talk about what those things are, but those involve like speaking at conferences and doing live streams and things like that, since I had already been doing that, and people started to see me as like, Oh, this is Shanday. She speaks about JavaScript or she's, you know, she does this in that.

Let's ask her if she wants to be on this panel. Let's ask her if she wants to do that. But I hadn't practiced that no muscle. And so I was like, Oh, no muscle. Yeah. Like, oh, yeah, sure. I can fit it in. Sure. No, like, yeah, absolutely. Or, you know, because you gave me a chance before I feel like I owe something to you. And so I have to say yes to this and that. And so that led to like, I don't even know what comes this step beyond out but like that's where I'm at right now is like it's like continued. I'm hailing in the wind as I would say just like ashes like I'm like beyond burnout.

That's gonna be my turn for it. Yeah and so when I started with Netflix and I kind of skipped over how the whole Netflix thing started and how great of the experience has been. I do want to talk about that. Yeah, one of the things that I talked about with Ryan Burgess my manager was Like how am I gonna do this because I really want to impress you? I Don't know if I said it like that, but he knows my heart so like I was like listen I want to do a good job like my biggest fear is getting this dream job of mine and then getting fired from it And he was like listen One don't worry about that like stop stressing but two, I have this framework that I put in place where I evaluate things because you know that like he does the podcast, he does like conference talks, he does like everything.

And I'm like, how do you do all that? And you also have kids. And so he asks himself three specific questions that help him to evaluate and practice that that no muscle. And so his questions to himself are, I hope he doesn't mind me sharing this but like his questions to himself are does it benefit the person that I'm asking? does it benefit me and does it benefit Netflix and so I used his framework as kind of a guideline and Formed my own framework. So my first question that I asked myself when somebody asks me to do something now because I'm not in The same mode that I was now I'm in maintaining mode like I just want to keep my job I want to I want to be happy.

I want to have a little more balance So the first thing I do is I'm like, does this spark joy? Like is it somebody like Tay-Tay or I'm like, oh snap, I really wanna talk to this person. So like absolutely yes. And that's the first thing. Now if the answer is no, obviously no. If the answer is like, maybe I'll ask more questions. And you know, that's when I start thinking like, okay, one thing I didn't mention is that every year, we're actually every six months. I outline these really big goals for myself. So this year, for example, one of my goals is to, we don't have promotions at Netflix, but, or we kind of, it's a long story.

So we don't really have promotions, but like one of my goals is to do a good job at my job, to become actually a full stack engineer. So does this fit in line with one of those goals, one of those bigger goals? So if it's something where it'll teach me Java, Or if it's something where I'll learn deeper typescript or something that I'm using at my job, then yeah, I might consider it. Or if it's something that will benefit a group that I am really in tune with, like I know that you work with the Veterans who code, you know, the answer might be yes.

If it doesn't fit into any of that stuff, then unfortunately it's a kind of a kind of time. Yeah. You've got to protect your heart, your time. It's so hard. But you can so burn out. And I think you responded to a tweet that I had because I was saying that I'm like 2022 is my year like my word is boundaries. But in in in theory, that's easy. Like it's great like, yeah, yeah, you could say no to the same out of that and you have this whole framework and everything. But the emotional very vulnerable, very people pleasing, very perfectionist part of me that has driven everything that I've done my entire life tells me that, oh girl, you're making people, you're letting people down.

Like so it's so hard. Oh gosh, you're like, I got goosebumps just now, because yeah, I'm dealing with that. I mean, I think if you are wired to pour into people and want to help people, you know, I don't want to throw on the content creation word, but I think I think there's I think for a lot of the dev community who are putting out content who want to help people There's like an added pressure I I was having dinner because I've been dealing with some burnout as well like I'm back in counseling You know, I'm really big on mental health and and I was having dinner with my friend and he goes He goes I don't think work stresses you out.

He goes. I think What stresses you out is that you feel? You'll indebted to people on the internet. Yes. Yes. And you feel a pressure for people who need you on the internet. And I said, I said, I think you're very right. And I think I'm having to just set my computer down at five. Yesterday, it was like five o'clock. My wife got home with my kid. They were outside. I was like, put your shit down and go outside. And it's hard for me to do works to be there tomorrow, that's hard for me. That's hard for me. I completely understand that. Yeah. And it's funny you mentioned that with the framing of counseling because I actually heard the same thing from my therapist was I came back from a week long vacation, no, two week long vacation.

And I told her I was like, I feel bad even saying this, but I feel like I need a vacation from my vacation. And I didn't do anything. I honestly, I relaxed as much as possible. I didn't pick up my computer or anything like that. But I was like, I love my job. I love the people I work with, but I cannot, I can't get out of this wheel. And she was like, she sent me this link. I'll have to find it and send it. But it was saying that burnout is, it's not just like when you say you need a vacation, what that really means is you, one of the big things was you're not setting proper boundaries.

or you're not communicating, or you're dealing with people who have, what is it called, inconsistent communication. And so she listed out a lot of things that you wouldn't necessarily think of, but it's like over time, doing those same things just kind of fizzles you out a good amount. So yeah, I'll get you that link, but it was pretty eye-opening. So talk about, so let's, cause it's already time is flown by. Let's talk briefly about Netflix. I mean, I know there's, I know I get a lot of questions about how's it like working there, how to get in. I mean, can you talk about your journey to get to Netflix and just kind of give a little peel behind the onion on how Netflix is?

You're gonna love everything that I have to say because if it's way inside of everything that you preach. everything that you preach. And so if anybody takes anything away from this, if you take away one thing, it's listen to Taylor when he tells you to do something. I'm not saying that. We did not rehearse this before. No, we didn't. We didn't. So yeah, like how I did it, or I could not how I did it, the big key was to leverage the network in order to get in the position where I could interview. Now, obviously, part of actually passing the interview is doing the work.

So you have to learn to code. You have to learn to code well. You have to learn about, for Netflix, it was really important to learn about performance, like web performance, and not necessarily clean code, but efficient code. So that's part of it. But the big thing is, if you can have all of these beautiful skills, you can have like all of these diamonds and gold wrapped up in this beautiful box. But if that box sits inside your closet, like who gives it? I don't know if I could swear, but who gives a heck? Oh, I can't. Who gives a fuck? Like who cares about who cares?

Right? Like, you know, you have to give it to somebody. So the networking piece is so essential. And Twitter and LinkedIn have helped me tremendously in being able to make sure that I get eyes in front of other people. So I was not a speaker. Like my goal for 2021, my word was just like to put myself out there. I told myself because I had a bad manager back in the day who told me that I wasn't a good public speaker. I told myself for over a decade that I was a terrible public speaker. And just because he said it, and I was like, you know, 2021, I'm rewriting my narrative.

I'm just going to speak. And speaking, helped me to get introduced to people who helped me to get introduced to people. And actually Will Johnson was on the call. We did a Gatsby webinar together and he is master networker. And I mean, I will shout out, Will, go connect with Will. Your career will level up. If you know Will, I firmly believe that. Yeah, that's. So that's the second takeaway is like connect with Will because he is awesome. And, you know, thinking about it, I could pretty much attribute my entire engineering career based on like Will and him introducing me to somebody and those people introducing me to people and then we'll come back and be like, but did you talk to this person too?

So that helped me open up my network and how I found out about this Gatsby thing was through Twitter as well. So I started using hashtags on your days of code, got linked up with people, got linked up with Will and then just continue to build on those connections. Nothing kind of crazy like no weird crazy DMs like will you be my mentor or hey you have a beautiful smile It's all like just normal people stuff which I know you preach about a lot just like Up your DM game if you if you feel insecure or if you haven't said to DM before please talk We stock to Taylor and figure out how to get better on that but overall that was what spear headed it and I met Ryan Burgess on Twitter There it is.

We didn't, like there was never any me reaching out saying, hey, how can I get into Netflix or anything like that? He posted up a job and actually I was following his podcast. He posted up a job and I was like, hey, I'm probably not ready for this job right now, but maybe in six months are you gonna be hiring? And he was like, let's just have a conversation. Let's see what happens from there. Had a conversation and the rest is history. So, Here it is. I'm so happy for you. That's awesome. I love stories like that. And then, Duly coming in and going, can there be a part two?

Listen, if Shonday says yes, I will, we will get it scheduled. And then, yeah, everyone go connect with Will Johnson, for sure. So, Shonday, as we wrap up here, any last final thoughts, words of wisdom for hiring managers, for job seekers, just last little bit of nuggets on this. Yeah, so I try and help people at scale. So if you're interested in more about my journey or anything like that, you can Google, like literally my name is so Googleable. So just like look for Shanday person, Spotify. I've done a bunch of podcasts about it. Or you can just check me out on Polywork. Everywhere is just at Shanday.

So if you want to just look at any content that I've done before, that is a good help. But yeah, the last thing is just that level of maniacal prioritization, outline what your top goals are for the next six months, and then only do the things that are in line with that. And everything else, you can do it, just not everything at once. I love that, I love that. All right, y'all, well, thank you again, Sunday, stay online as we end it, just so I can say bye properly. But y'all, listen, I saw the comments. Thank y'all so much, y'all are amazing. Again, render ATL, if you enjoyed today, I will have a booth and I will interview Shonday live.

That's gonna be a hell of an interview. I'll tell you that. Let's have a craft cocktail too and then let's go live together. That sounds like a blast. But go connect with her. She's a wealth and knowledge, especially on Twitter. And again, be fearless. Go be fearless. Go send a DM. Again, three parts of a DM. Flattery, admiration, specific amount of time, a specific question, right? No hate smiley faces like I did with my wife when I started dating her. So all that being said, y'all have a great Wednesday. Love y'all mean it and we'll see y'all take tomorrow. By the way, unicorn finders, because a guy can't have too many podcasts.

Unicorn Finders tomorrow, we are interviewing the head of NFTs for VaynerMedia. And that's Gary V's company, VaynerMedia. We are interviewing him tomorrow to talk about why your company should consider an NFT strategy, for maybe not. So he's helped with brands like Pepsi and Budweiser to develop their NFT strategy. So y'all check out tomorrow not 30 AM Central and you all have a good one. Peace. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode, and I am very grateful, because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes, and I myself rarely finished an entire episode, so I appreciate you so, so much for listening.

Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others, and the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it. Please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, Taylor at Vaco.com or at Tdastin on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.