management road map w/ eric yager

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco.com is how to get in touch with me, old fashioned email, social media at tdesint. D E S S E Y N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. Eric, let's give the people what they want. Let's do it. Who are you? What do you do? And we'll go from there. Yeah, sure. I'll give my little 30 second intro speech. So right now I'm the site tech lead for Amazon's Air Science Technology Organization in Nashville.

So if you're driving on 40, just pass the 440 split, you'll see two new brand new towers go into Nashville. That's our, that's our Nashville hub. It's home to a ton of organizations, a lot of stuff in the operations space, actually the operations center of excellence. excellence. And then my team resides there. We're split between Nashville and Bellevue. In Nashville, right now we have four products we're working on all in the aviation space. Anytime you go to the airport you see a big cargo plane that says primary on the side, that's what my team's working on. If anybody's curious about the details dropping in the comments we can dig into that.

But I'll spare you the details of what my team's do for now. So I've been with Amazon for two years today. This is actually my work anniversary. Great, man. That's awesome. Thanks. Before I was with Amazon, I was down actually in Austin, Texas, with some of the people that are in the comments section. I worked for Dell Technologies, where I was a software engineer. That came at the tail end of a little over a decade in the army. Schooling-wise, I have a bachelor's in criminal justice, which has done almost nothing for me career-wise. I was actually a police officer in a former lifetime. There's only time that degree actually came into use.

Then I got a couple of masters from Syracuse University. I have a massive business analytics and a master's in business administration Other than that, I guess fun stuff. I own a farm in Nashville got some goat's horses. Oh guys I didn't know you were farm guys I'm here in Hendersonville. Nice. Look at that. Yeah, welcome. Yeah, man. Absolutely. Just trying to be like Eric and always my life Alright, so want to dive in today And you know have a lot of stuff to cover and again, so a lot of so, you know, I don't come up with questions I don't have set questions. I want this to be more of a fireside chat between two friends and and and You know so Eric and I were chatting backstage quote unquote for a live I was like me like what do you you know?

What do you passionate about Eric like what do you want to talk about cuz last time we talked about breaking into the fang and And Eric was like well, you know, I've I've I'm kind of dealing with these two main things one is retention right trying to find talent Eric has actually had to go up the flagpole at Amazon be like hey listen We're struggling in finding talent here, right? So we're gonna talk about that and then also we're gonna talk about what Eric is doing from an Xs and O's right We're gonna get a little technical not technical But more of a technical kind of management coaching type philosophy what Eric does and so Eric I want to kick it off and the first thing is his retention right in finding talent everyone struggling with it And it's curious you brought this up backstage because I'm like ah Eric's got it.

It's Amazon right everybody wants to work in Amazon But Eric can you kind of dive in on maybe on what you're struggling with right now especially when it comes to finding managers? Yeah, yeah. So I mean, on the recruiting attention side, there's a lot of story. And what I will say is Amazon is a gigantic organization. So oftentimes, as a hiring manager, we're not just competing against external companies, we're also competing against teams within Amazon. One of the beautiful quirks of Amazon is kind of the way that it grew up over the years. So we grew up, and there's a lot of organizations like this, but it's not exactly a monolithic organization.

It's more of a conglomerate. So you're looking at a ton of different organizations that are all essentially their own startup with the centralized funding from Amazon, which creates a lot of competition when it comes to finding candidates. Sometimes I'll source a candidate and I'll find they've been sourced by another team. And we're doing a little competition. Welcome to my world. Yeah, I do not envy recruiters, even in this market. I mean, this is probably a good time for recruiters with a great resignation and all that. But when we're looking at, I'll start with the retention side. So right now I have 11 engineers and you know, every day, it's a matter of retaining that talent.

I've done a pretty good job so far. I've only had one person leave my team. I'll interrupt you. So yeah, I can't I want to interrupt you right now because it's the mindset. Do you think your mindset now is shifted until it's like, holy crap, anybody could leave it any day now? I mean, are you, is that in the back of your brain? A hundred percent every time I wake up, every time I go to sleep, it is always a key. Nightmare. This is a different ecosystem. Maybe even a few years ago at Dell, you know, when I would look at people on my team, when I look at people that I was working with, there was less of a threat that people were just gonna up and leave, but now it's flipped.

It is the employee's market right now. So as a manager, you know, if you're putting in draconian rules, if you're putting in, you know, hefty policies on even just, you know, not being remote and being in the office, really, people have a lot of options. You know, within Amazon, we have thousands of rules people can shift into. Across the industry, it's way above that. So every day, it's finding ways to empower the team to make sure their cop is in the right place and just doing all those things to make sure that I am giving them a satisfying environment to stay in because, and I've pulled some of my team members.

I've talked to some of my team members about how many times recruiters hit them up. One of my team members said that it's like twice a day, three times a day. If they wanted it to depart, it would be instant. So, you know, every day, managers need to be servant leaders, you know, focusing on the bottoms up processes, focusing on power in the people you hire, and really seeing yourself as behind the team and elevating them as opposed to in front of the team, telling them what to do, if that makes sense. I love that. I want to get to a few more comments that kind of popped in.

Josh, what times, and I always appreciate Eric's post about being an engineering manager, remote working, working on that farm. Yeah, absolutely. I love it too. Mel comes in, yes, special announcement from Render ATL today at 11 AM Central. You won't miss it. I know what it is. It's pretty tight. Happy work, anniversary Eric. I love it. Thank you. And another buddy, another happy work, anniversary Cody. Billy, it's great to see you, Jordan from Philly. We're all over the place. We're all over the USA. I love it, Justin. It's so good to see you as always my friend. So let me ask you this, Eric. So not only are you competing against outside talent, are you kind of competing with keeping your team intact instead of going to another division Amazon?

Like are you almost competing with that too? Yeah, 100%. Amazon has basically every flavor of software engineering you get into, within reason, you can find that within Amazon. So when it comes to my team members, I'm always thinking in terms of they can easily leave within Amazon. And for the most part, actually, if somebody has a passion, if somebody wants to go do something else, it's not just like, oh, I hate the team. I'm gonna work with them. I'm gonna work with them. I'll work with them to find somewhere else where they can be sure. I'll never look at my employees and try to stymie their career goals, even when it comes to going external or internal.

100%. Personally, I like having that freedom, even in the management role. I want to extend that to my engineers too. We're looking at between remote roles, Nashville roles, I mean, you can get into streaming video, you can get into Alexa, you can get into, and sorry if I set up anybody's devices, you can get into middle mile transportation tap, You can get into front of engineering, back in engineering, data science, everything lives here. So, you know, knowing what my engineers want to do and make sure that A, I'm trying to provide it within the org and then B, supporting them if they do want to move to another team is kind of how you have to balance that.

So let's go over kind of your comment earlier about having to raise the flag pretty quickly. Can you tell the people kind of watching right now that story and what area of staff, What staffing issues that you've had and kind of what you've had to do to fix it? Yeah, I mean, and it wasn't just me raising the flag. I think this was across all of Amazon. Sure, I'm sure. But looking at the history of especially larger established companies like Amazon, Google, Facebook, Bometa, you know, you're looking at companies that grew with the onset of the popularity of the internet. And so with that, we're looking at decades of people being around whiteboards, people going next door to their neighbor and asking a question.

And now we're thrust into this environment thanks to due to COVID, where we have to find efficiencies for that. So a lot of people still look at the onsite office as the best way to collaborate. And in many ways, that's probably true. But going back to retention piece, we have a new set of engineers coming out of school, and we have sets of established engineers that have embraced the remote lifestyle, and don't really personally align with commuting, with being in the office. So Amazon, like a lot of companies, struggled to find its way through the remote space. I think the balance that Amazon found is a pretty positive one.

I think it was in February. Our CEO put out a blog post that basically said, hey, we're going to leave it up to directors to determine the remote work policy. So in my argument, just being fully open, we struggled with finding that right balance. And it's been a bit of an evolution. And it's still evolving now. But right now, the balance we've struck is we've pulled back a little bit on saying, hey, people need to be local to Nashville. People need to be local to Bellevue, Washington. And now, on a case-by-case basis, we're saying, OK, engineers can live across the nation. We can hire people across the nation, and we'll put in stipulations like, if there is for some reason a reason to come into the office, we'll give you 24 hours notice.

and that's part of the deal. So that's given the engineers a lot of freedom. I've had engineers now relocate up to Indiana. I've hired people out of Virginia. I'm able to keep engineers in Seattle that don't want to move to Nashville. So we have a little bit more freedom there, which has helped with recruiting and has helped with retention. And now kind of, moving now from the IC space into the management space, finding that balance to be able to find the right way to allow managers to have that same kind of work-life balance. So that's kind of what we're working through here. It really is an org by org basis with an Amazon.

I love that. I love that. Duly Chimes in what you said that speaks volumes is absolutely admirable. Let your people grow. Mel comes in. I keep hearing that this is an employee's job market, but what do you say to the person who's qualified? Don't all the things career coaches have told them to do and actively applying, but still not getting callbacks. I have thoughts, but I'm kind of curious what yours are initially. Yeah, so my initial thought there. So even though it's the employee's job market, software engineering is still a very high consequence field. We're still seeing examples where poorly made software still allows security threats or allows infosec issues.

So the hiring bar is still gonna be largely intact. So we're not necessarily going to downgrade the process. And I know on my team and other teams, we've done things like we took away the offline assessment and just brought people through screenings and in non-sights as one efficiency. We're still gonna look for, you know, at least at Amazon, the high bar. And I think across the industry that that's still, you know, that's still the practice that needs to be in place. What I would recommend, if you have all the qualifications and you follow career coach advice, what I would say is find somebody that's not necessarily your friend, maybe professional contact, that's outside of your job search and run mock interviews with them.

Yeah. I would say sometimes, and I guess the question I might ask is if this is after on-site, if this is after screening or this application. Because one of those things has a gap that you need to tweak. And getting an external opinion, not to give you more work, but looking for recruiters that may look at your resume and give you feedback, or having a recruiter that might run a screening and give you feedback, or having a friend or a contact that can run a mock interview and give you feedback. Honing those three aspects are what should streamline the process getting into a company. I'd be curious to hear what you have to say though.

Yeah, I mean, Eric, I totally agree with Eric. I think, Mel, I think I would look for consistency's, commonalities, like where's the process breaking down, right? Is it a ton of phone interviews and you get rejected by the phone interviews? All right, well then maybe let's talk about, you know, what your phone interview kind of spiel is, right? Are you telling your story correctly, you communicating correctly? Are you breaking down on the onsite and the technical round, okay? If you are, is there a specific area or type of questions that are really stumping you, right? It's looking for kind of this process and evaluating every part of the process, but I'll also tell you this too, it is an employee's market, but just because it is employee's market doesn't mean, it's honestly, I believe this is Carmel saying this, but it's almost what she just said is there's a lot of other people out there too, right?

Just because it's an employee's market doesn't mean, Like everybody has all the leverage, right? I think that's the common misconception right now. Employees market, I can just go sneeze and find a job. You can't. Like you still have to put in the work. It's still just as competitive. Cause like Eric said, Eric was originally tied to Nashville engineers. Now Eric go hire an engineer in Virginia that may not have had that chance pre-COVID, right? And so again, just cause an employees market doesn't mean it's easier. It's actually means in some instances it's harder, but it allows you to have more access to more opportunities. So if that makes sense, hopefully that makes sense.

So Eric, I wanna give some tactical things. And can you talk about maybe some things you've implemented for retention? I know you said you just kind of did a reorg and are kind of adding some more things. Like maybe just kind of give some tips of the trade from Eric this morning. Yeah, sure. And I'm probably preaching to the choir. I know some engineers are tuning into this also. So we're still a work in progress on a lot of our reorganization. But earlier in the year, I ended up absorbing two teams. So up until January, I had two teams. It was a fairly manageable workload.

I think I had six total engineers at the time, two products. They had some synergies, and now I manage four. So I'm working on hiring managers, but in the meantime, I had to find a way to effectively manage the team when I'm not able to be in the room at all times. So what I did was I looked at, I looked at my four products. I had a couple that are in the safety space looking at aircraft, weight and balance, and safety reporting on site. And then I had another product that's focusing on managing access cargo space and then another product for financial automation. So what I'm working on now is trying to set the team up in a way that we have, we call a pizza team at Amazon.

So it's a team that you can feed with two pizzas on the table. I knew that, believe it or not, I've heard that. It's a pretty unique term. It took me a minute to be like, we're talking about pizza. Yeah, but I eat all the pizza, though, so that's another problem. So I'm really only a team of one. I can only be a team of one here. I eat for this pizza. Yeah, you and me, Bull. So yeah, so what I'm working on now is setting the team up. So we have two cohesive pizza teams that are in the same general space. And then I'm going to bring in management to manage those teams more directly.

But what I had to do in the meantime, is I haven't brought on managers yet. I had to find ways, like I said, bottoms up, kind of self-organization, going back to some of the original agile manifesto principles, getting the teams to self-manage, self-organize, and be able to make decisions without me sitting there, making decisions for them, since my schedule is exponentially more packed now. But I have all these teams. So one of the concepts that I put together was, the first thing I did was I wrote tenants. So I wrote tenants for the team, and I encourage, if you're a manager on the call and you don't have team tenants, I highly suggest you get team tenants.

Something you can just stick up on the wall. And if you're not in the room, those are the left and right limits. I wrote tenants for things like, how do you handle meeting requests? Because a lot of my engineers are saying that high meeting load. The tenants also went into what I'm kind of working myself into, which is the concept of a tech lead. A lot of companies have the concept of tech leads. Amazon generally doesn't have that concept. But I needed to have A, a way to give my more senior engineers way to make decisions and take power into their own hands. And then me, it's also a promotion path.

So it's easy fodder for somebody going from SD2 to SD3. So I took people that are on the precipice of looking at SD3, gave them this optional position, and let them run with it. And so far, I've had a lot of good feedback from the bottom up. So there's less red tape to make decisions. There's more. I understand the tech stack as much as I can understand the tech stack, but not as much as an SD2 on my team does. A lot of the decision making process to move down to those people to have a deep intimate knowledge on the tech stack, the infrastructure, the code quality, the tech debt, the operational excellence requirements, giving them the power to make technical decisions seems to be a huge boost to morale and kind of ST enjoyment on the team.

And then I had to caveat that tech leads will never take management. My job is to manage the team. They'll never take people management. So that's always going to lie with the SDM. But this is just a way to give some more bottoms up power to the teams. I love that. Is there anything else? I mean, so obviously empowering individuals, you know, you know, kind of getting rid of the red tape. I think it's incredibly important. I'm curious, is there anything else that you've implemented or that you've maybe even tried to implement and you failed and it just didn't work? Right? I'm just kind of curious to peek under the brain of Eric.

Yeah. Well, one thing that I implemented that I'm still waiting to see if it's going to be a success or a failure, I think it's going to be a success. But I I've been in what I'm calling free swim day. So the first day of each sprint, we run two sprints, people, and today is actually the day. So once again, in my team members, they are off doing whatever they want to do as long as it benefits Amazon. So that's one thing, we'll see if it crashes and burns, or if it's going to be a success, looking at working out, I think it's going to be a success.

I love that. In terms of things that weren't very successful. Yeah, maybe you've implemented, you tried something and it didn't, you tried it for like three months and just didn't work and flamed out? I think the big thing that kind of, they kind of flamed out, um, and we're looking to re-engregate this was, I tried to formalize hackathons within my, my organization last year. Um, so we ran just an internal hackathon. It was pretty good, gave some exposure to the team to other stuff, uh, but it kind of just died in the water when I tried to expand it up the rest of the York.

Um, I never really did a post mortem on it. I think that's really the big thing that, that didn't really go too well. Um, And I think what might attribute that, I made a ton of changes on my team, but I didn't make them myself. So whenever I make decisions for the team, I do this formally once a year, and then I do it informally just, you know, through our retro process and all that. Sure. You know, I make decisions as much as I can with the team's input. So just like, you know, you submit code reviews or pull requests, and somebody else looks at your code to make sure it's okay, I do the same thing with decisions when possible.

So if I have a good idea, fairy, the pops into my head, I'll find an existing meeting because I don't like to add more meetings to the team Unless I have to and we'll sit down and talk about it I'll get there and put back because a lot of times, you know They've experienced other teams in Amazon or you know Some engineers have way more experience than I do so getting their input back on my ideas and then honing the idea So it fits the them a little better seems to have been a little more successful than You know other times I've had it in my process and other organizations.

I love that What's your one on one cadence look like? Right, because I think for me managing my team remotely, I mean, I do one on ones every week. Sometimes it's a five minute conversation, sometimes it's a 35 minute conversation. So, do you do one on ones if you do, what's your cadence like with your team right now? Yeah, and what I'll say to any man, you're not doing one on ones of your team, you're leaving the door open then to leave. You need to do one on ones with them. It's so true. So what I do is for direct reports, I do weekly one on ones, which my whole team is director of ports right now, so weekly with all of them.

And what I do for topics a lot of times, one on ones is just you two staring at each other saying a couple of things and leaving. What I did this year as one of my process changes was I planned out topics week over week. So what we do is we have our normal like, hey, what's on your mind? How are things going? Personal conversation. Once that kind of organically ends, we'll crack open the topic of the week. We'll chat about it. I'll take notes and then we cut it off. So that's kind of how I run one on ones. like that, I like that.

Is there, so a question comes in from LinkedIn user, question for you guys, what tips would you give a job seeker like me who wants to get their foot in the tech industry, but might lack a certain skill that hiring managers are looking for in an entry level position. So I will tell you this, whoever's posting this, you need to go check out, I'll let Eric definitely answer right now, but Eric and I dove into this, I think specifically our last conversation, but Eric definitely take a stab at this. Yeah, so my advice now, which is, I believe the same as then, it feels like 10 years ago and I think it was like, it was like years ago.

It was my last year. What I would say, so you're either going to have to skill up to match that entry level position, or what I would say is if you're targeting a certain company, find an adjacent role that you are qualified for. Come in as a program manager, business analyst, support engineer, quality assurance engineer, come in something adjacent. And then once you're in the door, start talking hiring managers, start finding ways to, if you're talking about an entry level engineering position, find ways to automate things you're working on, find ways to commit code, have an example or out there and then try to shift into the role.

And then Amazon, a lot of other big tech companies, for, at Amazon, I believe it's L4M below, if you're in a non-tech role, we have an internal apprenticeship program where you go through a boot camp and then you apprentice, and at the end of the apprenticeship, if you meet the SV1 bar, you're offering an SD1 role. So if you find a company with an apprenticeship program, you can come in to a non-tech-coded role and usually be some avenue. I know Google has it, I believe Meta has it, and I know Amazon has it. So that's my advice on that. And again, that's why I like Eric, he and I think the same, but also different.

You need to be aware. This goes back to Mel to Mel. I would kind of add this to you as well. What type of roles are you chasing? And maybe not go after that if it's not working, right? I think everybody glorifies the first dev job, which I get, I get, it's hard to get the door, trust me, I understand. That's why I try to put all this content to help everybody as much as I feasibly can. But, sometimes you need to go with QA route, or maybe the project coordinator route. I had one guy, part of my texting community, he texted me and goes, hey, I took a data entry role because the hiring manager, I asked the hiring manager what my options could be if I do well in this data entry role to move in the data analytics, right?

So again, getting creative, asking those questions, I think is incredibly important. Brian comes over to the question, talk about your criteria for new manager roles. I'm actually curious, is there anything specifically that you're looking for for an individual to bring in? Yeah. So let's talk also the pathways in new management role. So you're either not a manager, and you're gonna become a manager, or you're a manager looking for another management role. So I'll start with the, you're already a manager, and looking to come to my team as an SDM. So what I'm looking for is, I'm looking for, and the roles that I opened up our L6 SDM3 role.

So it's usually more of a senior role, not quite a senior man's role, not managing managers. We're looking for somebody with experience as a manager. So the key thing I'm going to look for, I'm going to look for an engineering background. I know that there's some people that have different opinions on whether, you know, software or engineering managers need to have an engineering background. I'm in the camp they do. I think it's important that a manager can come in, you know, in the event of an emergency, I can, you know, submit code reviews. I can review other people's code, I can make design decisions. I can be a member of the conversation when I'm talking to junior engineers, senior engineers.

I think it's important for a manager to have an engineering background. Then on top of that, for my roles, I'm looking for somebody to have at least a couple of years of engineering management experience. What I'm going to do during the interview process is we're going to dig into that experience and make sure that their habits and their actions as a manager are ones that would raise the bar within Amazon. Now, looking at the flip side, so if you are not a manager and looking to be a manager, what I recommend people do is do that in place. So talk to your current manager and find ways for you to maybe manage one person, manage a couple of people and get that experience under your belt.

There are certain things as a manager that differ when you're managing people, then when you're like a program manager or product manager. So you're doing things like talent evaluation, you're doing things like managing people, people through growth, manage people have the organization. You're dealing with compensation. There's a lot of topics that you don't necessarily dig into as an IC. So what I'd say is stay in place and find ways to get exposed to those topics and those experiences in place. In fact, I have an engineer who's expressing some desire to maybe explore the management path. So what I'm doing is during the intern cycle, I'll bring in a couple interns.

He'll directly manage those interns. So he'll do talent evaluation. He'll attend all the management meetings. He'll coach and mentor them. And then he'll get exposed to the job and make sure that not only does he have what it takes to be an engineering manager, but also is engineering management what he wants to do. So that's what I recommend for breaking into management. I love that. I love that. So my data analyst guy or data entry guy is right here, Jordan Carter. I'm that data analyst that took the data entry role and I definitely feel like it boosted the number of interviews I'm now getting for analyst positions.

The probably reason for that is because he has data entry and is linked in and a lot of recruiters search data when they try to find data roles and that's why it's popping up. So Jordan, again, I'm proud of you for your awareness for taking that role and asking good questions. So Eric, as we wrap up here, Tom Flaz and we're having fun. Like always, any last words of wisdom for job seekers hiring managers, just anything else that you want to leave to guess with this morning? Yeah. So job seekers, what I would say is job seeking is a combination of a volume game and experience game.

So as you go through interviews, as you go through applications, you should gain insights. You're not going to gain insights from every single process you go through, but take those insights, hone yourself and keep going. You know, eventually it should line up for you as long as you are introspectively looking at yourself and adjusting your approach. Eventually, something's going to come along. A path is going to open up. So I would keep your head up and be open to changing, you know, your normal habits towards that process. And other than that, so for managers, the advice that I'd give is you put engineers and you put other people that are reporting into you through a hiring process that should have validated that they are trustworthy, that they can be trusted with a company's secrets, with a company's infrastructure, the company's money, let them manage that.

Give them clear goals and set them free. If they meet or exceed the goals, that's good. If they don't, then find bridge plans and work with them. But nobody, I'm guessing even managers included, nobody wants to have a manager tell them exactly what to do. They wanna be creative in their job, and let them be creative. If you hired them to make decisions. Yeah, I love that. I love that. All right, y'all. Well, thanks again for hanging out with us today. I appreciate it. Eric stay on as I ended here. I want to say goodbye to you. But y'all have a great one. I would highly recommend Connect from the Eric on LinkedIn, Eric Yeager, YAGER, KER, KER, KER, from LinkedIn, KER on Twitter.

He's a great follow and a great resource. So thank y'all for hanging out with us today, Eric. Thank you. Tomorrow morning, 930 AM Central Unicorn Finders. My other podcast is a man can't have too many podcasts. We are actually diving in with a software company out of Raleigh called ONA, O-N-N-A. They do a lot of like security and automation for your workflow. Very interesting company. You're gonna dive into some ML stuff, even though I barely know what ML is. But yeah, check out tomorrow, not their AM Central on our LinkedIn page. Y'all have a great one. Take it easy. We'll see you tomorrow. Peace. Hey, you did it.

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