faang & the job search w/ andy wong

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to guidance counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had guidance counselors in middle school. We had guidance counselors in high school, but we didn't really have guidance counselors in college. And now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. So that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, tailor at vacovac.com is how to get and touch me old-fashioned email social media at TDS&T D-E-S-S-E-Y-N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. I hope you enjoy the episode. Andy, give me a rundown about you. Again, give the rundown for the people one more time. Who are you? What do you do? And then we'll dive into the questions. My name is Andy Wong. I'm a senior software engineer at Block. I am a proud non-traditional background engineer.

I graduated about eight years ago and gave myself right now from local arts college. English like major represent. Pivion is software after graduating a boot camp that is not what they felt, looking to it. It's a funny story. And yeah, that was humble beginnings. I'd like to think of it. It has kind of like rags to whatever you want to use. I worked as startup for a couple of years, broke into my first public company with Wayfair 2018. Hit the books, work my butt off, got into Amazon, Google, and non-met block. And yeah, basically, if you're following me on LinkedIn, you probably know me as that one content creator who makes jokes all the time and writes a few insightful things some of the time.

And it used to be a lot more focused on insights, but now I'm kind of like, well, I give the people what they want and what they want is like really funny jokes. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. I think you're definitely funnier than I am. So definitely follow Andy for great funding content. So I want to give a shout to a few more people. Christine is great to see you. We're live, Chris, former guests of the show, Christina, Dominic, Julie. All right. Great. Love it. Love y'all. It's so good to see you all this morning. All right, Andy. So first off, I want to dive into how did you get into Techman, right?

Because I think people see your backgrounds. And they're like, man, this guy's gone from Wayfair, Amazon, Google. Now he's at block and he talked about getting into Tech in a non-traditional background. Talk about what you maybe wanted to do. I mean, did you always want to be a programmer? No, when I was a little kid, I wanted to be an archaeologist. I wanted to dig a dinosaurs. Then when I got into middle school, I was like, ooh, I like my teachers kind of, and the non-arromantic way just kind of like their kind of cool authority figures, whatever. So I want to be a teacher for a little bit and then I wanted to be a writer because I was like, oh, I can do things besides math.

I can be more than just like a token agent dude. And then I got into psych because I'm like, ooh, I really like, you know, picking my friends brains. I made this as a joke actually recently. I'm like, oh, now I can do all of them because it's like worse. Because like when you think about it, like look, I work in really big code bases for large companies with code that has probably been touched in like years. So that's like archaeology. I did the content creation thing. That's like teaching a writer in a nutshell and then everybody can go home. I kind of like, I've just had the biggest migraine.

So that's just mental health right there. I love that. I love that. So how did so let me ask you this man. So you graduated from a liberal arts college. Yeah. How'd you break in man? I mean, so basically, I mean, I was just kind of like unpaid writer. I had like a very brief stint as a good unpaid writer for teacher report, which is probably the most embarrassing thing that I will never tell you about. But you can probably dig us on my articles and think like what the hell are they doing? Because I was unpaid. I'm like, you know, put that much effort into it.

Sure. That was kind of like on the job hunt for like e-journalism work. Because I figured, well, that's probably the one thing I'm going to qualify for. I wrote from my school newspaper a little bit talking about sailing for the whole things. And yeah, just kind of like, I always, you know, you're just, you're 22, 23 and you're kind of dumb. You're kind of scrambling to figure like, what do you do that? But take a skill in the story. Sure. So, you know, I had always been around the internet. You know, some jobs I was applying for that, you know, my siblings were forwarding to me and it's like, hey, maybe if you could stand out a little bit, if you picked up like some HTML or CSS or something.

So that was kind of like the organic is kind of like trying to take out like what you kind of have skills in like on the periphery on the edges. Right. And try to spin out from there. And then I just had like college friends or one college friend in particular who posted on his like Facebook while I was kind of like, hey, I'm so like, hey, I'm hoping to post in this like little workshop. I'm talking about like spinning up like a blog, you know, whatever like web development. Basically, I was kind of like, yeah, I was basically kind of like, hey, like, that sounds kind of interesting.

Like a leisure from what I was already doing anyway. So it's sign up for that. And then, you know, it was kind of just start the conversation. It's like, oh, hey, touch it. Pick this up. Because I know you were doing like Stan comedy beforehand. Right. And then he was like, oh, yeah, I started this. I was like, I couldn't just get for a round. And then I was asked him, like, was it worth it? Like, was it worth your money? I was like, yeah, it was. But that's because it was free when he did it. So I'm like, okay, what was the cost now?

So what was the dollar? Is it like, I guess minus will try. Yeah. If I'm talking tells you like 90% job placement, like, why not? Right. So I learned two things that day and two things in the next few months, which one of which is like, a, how to work hard and hustle and start the transition, put it and a B don't fall from marketing. Don't fall from marketing without you doing your research. Those were the end. I mean, it worked it. Worked out. So, so would you say, I mean, we're not saying names, but would you say the coding bootcamp helped you or not?

Based on that comment. I think in general, at that time, I think in general, like, I decided to do once these things. I think I'm a big advocate of just like, so the term is, like what you put in is what you get out. Like, I look back at that time and I think like, what would you think getting like that level of effort you put in? Like, of course you weren't going to come here for now, it's a tough time. And folks nowadays, like the number one reason that folks run into like major speed bumps after graduating you can work trying to pivot into the field to just like, you know, what were your expectations going in?

What was the worth of your putting in before, during and after? Sure. Like, have a plan. If you don't have a plan like, hit me up, I'll be able to help you. And I'm like, there you go. And plan ahead. So that's for my answers. If you don't have a plan, the Mandy. So, and so, so you went to bootcamp, picked up some things. But like, how'd you get that first job, man? Because that's that, that's hard. Yeah. I looked out. Right. In that. So what happened was I had alumni and I boot camps, like, because we have like alumni channel that we kind of talk between ourselves.

And I had one senior who basically posted like, hey, I'm looking for someone to take on this like project that I'm trying. They were basically subcontracting and they had a gotten more lucrative contracts. They're like, I need someone to dump this work off to. Sure. It'll be cheap and kind of like, not glorious. But I was like, yes. Sure. Because I mean, I think I was kind of the same situation as a lot of folks. I mean, we just kind of get desperate and just kind of like, use some, some leeway. So I picked that up. I think, I think it was like a fall like late fall early winter, 2014.

Sure. And I basically just like put it up ton of hours and then that. And then I think around like, I got my first real job. Like April 2015. And you know, once I had that experience and I just did interview loops again. So I had a lot. I think I literally read like hundreds of pages every week. I'm like, okay. It was basically like, now we're never. It's like, okay, I know I suck at a lot of things. But now I see those things a little bit less. And I was sure. Okay. Let's do one last make it a break it push is either, you know, I get some place with benefits that I can.

start paying off on my loans or I just kind of like keep tooling around with our early jobs, try to make do like little whatever work and try to figure it out. So yeah. Yeah. You know, ironically, I think I was on like the last interview I had scheduled where I was kind of like either I make it or I don't. I don't care anymore. And like, I did amazing. Like, because you know, you get more confident. Like I just don't get. Yeah. Like blow it off. Sure. Like I don't even, I don't even love this place. But you get in and you know, you it's like human interaction.

It's like you're out of the woods again. Sure. So I was at my first job. It was kind of great. It was there for about three years. Did a really small, but you know, a lot of responsibility because it's like everyone is just just start up. Like everyone's wearing multiple hats. They're really transitioning themselves and doing it's a hard way. And then after three years there I basically pivoted into Wayfair, which I can talk about a bit more. That was a process. And then, you know, once I was at Wayfair, you know, one of these companies where it's public. So it gets, you know, traction with your crude rates.

That's when the, yeah, the pipes might start to build up a little bit more. Sure. So I think. So, so that first job. And I wanted, sorry, I wanted to stress this with folks. That first job you didn't actually get with your network. You got it with just pure sheer studying and interviewing and just great determination basically, right? I mean, I did get, it was through my note. The same network. It was like referral, but just like, okay, getting it, like getting the job was just like working hard. as like, like I should have been doing like when I was during an boot camp in like, we need laughter.

But that's the thing you think is that like you can't like at some point you do have to put in just that kind of great determination to break in. Yeah, I was going to ask you this. Do you think most junior devs from what you see do not put in the work required even though they think they are? That's a fair question. I actually had this conversation not too long ago with Raymond Gantt who's another kind of like creator with a very similar background. We're pretty similar with both Asian still too. So, I think there's like a disconnect with how boot camps prepare their candidates and then setting up expectations for what like is actually involved with the real job.

Yeah. Like I see a lot of candidates. I think, you know, posting on LinkedIn who are like. They're feeling good. They're getting a feedback that there's still like another step up sometimes. Like when I look at folks portfolio's and code and stuff and it's like, I think part of it's like a bubble effect when you're kind of like when you're in these programs are very like kind of inclusive and you kind of get sort of this. It's like the social media I go chamber effect which I kind of like blast sometimes. Yeah. I really encourage folks when they can like very early very often network not just for the sake of networking but network to get yourself familiar with like what the actual bar is going to be.

And every time that you interview for like a next level up. Like when I was trying to level up from my first job to my second job when I was trying to level up from like, you know, way fair to big tech. You really got to like look at like what is what is the these each of these new bars that you have to climb to basically. Like where I was at way fair I was not at that level that I wanted to be at. Sure. You know, when I was starting to get this attention from bigger companies like I literally had I think Amazon Facebook Google like mysteriously message me all in the same week.

And like I failed all those interviews but just getting experience. Like putting myself out there like taking opportunities that you don't feel like you're ready for. But just to know like a bar setting. Yeah. And like once you get that intensity is kind of like it becomes like natural. Yeah. I, you know, I talked with Connor about this on my show and for those of you who haven't watched it Connor got a job at Netflix just because of one DM. So I would check out that episode if you haven't. But Connor and I talked about in posturing him a little bit and looking back on my career.

So I'm dealing with the posturing him now for the first time probably my entire career over the last two years. And the reason is because I'm actually pushing myself. Like like looking back on my career. I have never really fully maximized what I could do until the last two years. And now I feel in posturing him. For those of you who are struggling with imposter syndrome. That means you're, that means you're pushing and that means you're learning and I will tell you this get comfortable in it. Because I'm trying to get comfortable in it and it's not easy. But it's like Andy just said, I think there's a certain muscle that you have to exercise from a hustle, grind, grit, whatever term you want to use to kind of get to that next level.

And so I 100% agree with him at Andy. So I want to go and dive into kind of what you're now a message about and kind of interviewing for Fang. Right. So I had Genesis Bond on the show. She's at meta, Facebook, whatever. Right now. We had a great interview and she talked about kind of prepping for it. So any tips, not necessarily maybe tricks you have, but just general insight into, hey, when you interview at Fang, here's kind of what to expect. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I worry about this a ton, but folks can be about that. But so I think a lot of it is, I'll be honest, I think a lot of it is just like a draw and sort of who your interviewers are.

And I say this all the time. It's like a lot of the problems that I've had experience in. And then I've seen is that like even with companies that like are, you know, hyper scale and they care about scale, they have problems like a people level too. Like how do you create training programs that folks can just like jump into and then like, because these companies they have so many applicants, they need so many interviewers. They need to get them up to speed. It's like you can't like the smart thing would be to take a couple of folks who are really good and just have them focus probably full time on interviewing candidates.

But you can't really do that because that's in scale. So really it's a lot of it, like a lot of it is always just luck. And know that you always have a chance to try again. Like depending on how well you can do it, it could be interviewed through this monster six months or 12 months, whatever. But take advantage of that if you really have a couple of that you want to push for. Secondly, like once you're in, like lean into your interviewer. Most of the nice ones, like no for a fact, I'm like, you know, what we ask of you is not. We're not expecting you to be able to figure that out like on your own.

Right. Like we don't want you to use Google or whatever. Stuck with whatever it is. Like the interviewer should be the person you ask for that. We want you to ask questions. It's a expectation. We want you to show us that you understand the problem or that like you're trying to suss things out in like a bit more. Like how do you deal with like abstract things when things aren't like totally clear. Some folks think that's broken. You can chat me up unhappy to defend it or attack it, whatever. I can play both sides. Yeah, for sure. But you're lean into your interviewer. Like and be aware of how like an actual discussion.

Like a lot of folks I think that's key. I think a lot of folks have this like idea of like, oh yeah, it's just going to be like a big co-dious in a fast. Like it's more comprehensive than that even though like that's what you see focus on. Like you know, we want to know that you know like some fundamentals. Yeah. We want to communicate really well. We want to know that like you know you know how to unstuck yourself. Right. Because a lot of us are stuck for hours a day and the key part is figuring out like when are you actually stuck? Like how do you work around that?

Like ask for help. Like drop your prime as for help. It's literally part of the profession it's asking for help. Yeah. So just you know a part of that is just like getting past things like imposter syndrome getting past some of these like your own kind of stuff image. Like what you think you should be able to do or to provide is like no it's just you know I'm really big on eagles programming. Like you know I make myself all the time like that's proof that I don't have an ego. But that's kind of the attitude that helps it come in. It's just like yeah.

You know focus on what you see get done and just get your done. I totally agree with that. I do want to give shout to people who have tuned in since we've been chatting this morning Ricardo Mel Chris Joshua what's going on the one we've all been waiting for. And you see more Andy Sabrina dominant comes in goes hundred cent agree with with Andy that your professional outcomes are heavily determined how much effort you put in the job search absolutely Chris choice. Chris is great to see a buddy. Former guests of the show personal networks are powerful that people you know often dictates where you can get in the door both for juniors and senior positions.

Yeah. I mean I think you know we can talk about this too Andy. I don't know if you've done this but I always encourage people to network within the organizations once you find the job. Because I feel like people are like oh I don't need networking anymore I found a job. No no no lean into people within your organization because typically developers want take people with them that they want to work with. Austin it's great to see you. And let's see here a lot of impostorism is coming in kind of some some comments with that. Yeah I mean Barrett former guest of the show thing of you process yeah I mean listen I but it's just like Andy said right Andy failed.

His all of his first first rounds and then he interviewed again so Andy like let me ask you this would you say like hey listen go after it and if it doesn't work take notes and try it again. Yeah I yeah my wife get like gives me crap all the time it's kind of like I never passed the first try like any company I cared about. It's always like fail hard and then when a party hard after you beat it like the second time. Yeah but again big part of it is like a the draw some of it's circumstantial who you have worked with before during after.

And actually we think I know we talked about this a little bit a little bit earlier on but like what happens after with what happens if and when you do get the offer that's also like pretty important too. Yeah well and then yeah so let's dive into that in a second but and I want to comment on what Andy said is that like I think what I think what people need to focus on is being intentional in the interview process. Right I think a lot of people go through the interview process and it's and it's motions and motions and motions and and what Andy saying here is like listen have a conversation be intentional lean into your interviewer do all those things and again I think that's the so wise because I just I just don't think people do that I think people are like yeah I'm gonna try it and then just get blasted and then they'll learn anything.

But I think I think the key in Andy I'm interested your thoughts on this if you can take an interview from an interview to a conversation the whole vibe of the the conversation changes. Yeah I mean you know max mentions here like it's mental and practice that's basically it. You know like personally speaking like I'm here in the day to assess whether I'm not going to enjoy working with you. Yeah you know a lot of the you know I've done this myself and I see another somebody candidates too but like you know folks who come in and they just like we start talking about the prompt or whatever it is and they just start getting like really hand wavy like that's not intentional like I'm not not here to.

I'm not here to reject you I'm here because I want to see you succeed. I'm IP an exception I don't really know I'm just want to do your but generally speaking I want to see dudes and gals get offers cause like that helps my company especially if you're really great and helps me because I put in the effort like best day of my life is when I sit in front of a candidate and they do awesome and I wish them the best I hope that they pass. Yeah but that's the enthusiasm that I bring is like I love seeing when folks really knock it out of the park I want them to do it right and you know.

Yeah then ask for hands you can kind of like if you don't know something like you can say I don't know but you know it's like the I've written about this before like there's an art to sing I don't know you say I don't know but let's work together to find the solution. That's the key right and I talk about improve your communication skills all the time and and I realize that's a very vague statement right. It's like all right Taylor you talk about improve your communication skills what are you talking about that's what I'm talking about and he just said I don't know but here is maybe something I would do or but this is what I have done in the past.

What are your thoughts on that because I think so many times in interviews you guys a question people go I don't know. and you're just like and then the interviewer's like all right jeez but moving on and that just is it's a terrible terrible vibe Andy I'm sure you can attest to that being a part of interviews but if but if somebody goes hey Andy honestly I don't know what you're saying. Can you talk can you use it in a sentence right that I don't know just joking but you know and then Andy uses it in a sentence and you know oh okay. That's what you mean I have developers top of all the time because jargens differ wherever you go right like you guys could potentially call something different at block than you did at Google.

Yeah I mean it's it's you're helping us in some ways like you can ask like how can you break that down like literally just break it down. Yeah if it's not clear to you that means that I'm not doing a good job of explaining it. I just get job of teaching you correct each ability is it's one of these like rare things that I wish more candidates and interviewers kind of got into like yeah. How do you respond to the hints that I try to give you sometimes is more important than you just like coming in and oh you maybe you've seen the problem you know how to solve it.

responding to feedback and like creating a positive group can sometimes lead you in a better place than if you just like knew what the hell you're finding in the first place. So good so good alright so the last little bit we got together. Let's talk about negotiations right so I'm a sales guy. By nature I work on a team of sales people and to be quite honest we're not the best in negotiating alright no one is really great there are a few people out there that are fantastic but at the end of the day. My team is in sales and we struggle and what I've got to thinking is wow I'm in my job is to negotiate software developers jobs are not really necessarily to negotiate so I'm always wanted to give tips and tricks to help people when it comes to negotiations so Andy any thoughts on this topic from you.

I'm pretty hard line I'm like. always like assume by default that you have leverage like I'm always like telling the desk on like leverage like if you have an offer even if you don't have any other offer you know your presence you having some in hand is your leverage your ability and willingness to walk away is like huge. I don't know how recruiters feel about this is kind of like a chain game a little bit but like you know. Have options to your research. You know be a little bit like me when I was like in that first job in should you be like I don't care.

Like brush it off because if you can do it once you can do it again it's just again having confidence and just you know it's not gambling it's not gambling to say like oh. you know to risk walking away it's it's it's investing you're investing in yourself when you negotiate and when you tell yourself like you don't have to take something just because it's there. Yeah well and I think I think Andy makes a really good point here and it's hard especially for first devs right first first job. But if you can get to a point where you can either walk away from it or you can kind of have a mentality of you know what I have nothing to lose like I think the nothing to lose mindset is a very.

When I say scary it's like a good scary like it is a good place to be if because because a lot of sports teams that I'm a big sports guy. havingc you know they had nothing to lose they were incredibly overmatched and they literally everybody counted them out they had literally nothing to lose. they came out one and I think when it comes to the job search and negotiations, I think playing to the point where you got nothing to lose like Andy being the interview, I think is a good place to be. I've got I've got really sorry about this but I got a hard stop coming out.

Oh no you're good you're good all right listen y'all thanks again for hanging out. Andy's got meetings we were a little late today Andy will have to get you on for a follow-up um sorry for the technical difficulties you all have a great great Wednesday Andy go hop on your meeting and we'll touch base after okay. I see y'all bye. Hey you did it you'll listen to an entire episode and I am very grateful because you know why there's a lot of podcasts out there there's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finish an entire episode so I appreciate you so so much for listening quick reminder please rate and review this podcast in the app store I want this to be discoverable to others and the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it please like right now unless you're driving then don't do it so thank you again if you need to reach out to me tailor at vaco.com or at t-test and on all social media handles and I hope you have a fantastic day.