i ain't got time...how can recruiters help w/daniel norton, cto of neural payments

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco.com is how to get in touch with me old fashioned email social media at tdsntdesen and finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. Daniel give the people what they want. Who are you? What do you do? We'll go from there. All right, hey, fam. I see a couple of Reverend Greek drawings on people's avatar. So that's cool. I love seeing that kind of stuff. So hey, everybody.

I'm Daniel Norton. I am currently the chief technology officer of neural payments. We are a financial services company. I would say we're a startup. I guess we're still a startup. We just hit revenue. We have live customers on our platform right now, probably some PR things coming out the wire right now, but I can hint at them first time on Taylor Show right now. I got some funding situation taken care of. Oh my goodness, getting past all those milestones has been a huge amount of work. And I really kind of feel like I'm coming out from a cave. I don't get to escape the cave.

I just get to come out, you know, for a coffee. And see the sun. Yeah, and be like, and basically I'm going to use my five minutes of sunshine and be like, Taylor, help me, help me. So yeah, hey everybody, here's where I'm in. I love it. So Daniel, obviously, you know, that helped me help me is indicative of what you want to talk about. Tell the people that are watching this morning and we have more people, Adriana, Ryan. Ryan, it's great to see you, man. It's been a minute. Torrance Garrett, what's going on? I'm in Milwaukee now. I love it, man. So Daniel, give kind of a, I guess give the people a little quick background what we're going to talk about.

Okay. What we're going to talk about? Yeah. So, yeah, I got a, I got a quickly transition from being a CTO that's pulling all nighters, hacking away, writing code. We have a very small team right now, a couple of people that have just been with me like pulling all nighters with me to building a team, right? building and so now that we have live customers building a sustainable organization, a sustainable product. And I got to move quick and I've been so heads down that I don't have, this is maybe there's a little bit of background for all listeners too. I mean, this is not my first go with this rodeo.

I'm a former co-founder, CTO, and going from a company that got to a growth stage to going all the way back to the beginning has been sort of fun. So it's been a minute since I have built out like hiring plans and growth paths for people and networking, getting out there, hiring people aggressively like this. So I mean really it is like Taylor, you have your finger on the pulse of the day to day and my understanding might be a little dated. So I want right from the source here, man, somebody who knows what's going on today. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. So Daniel, Dan, our chatting affair and Dan was like, yeah, yeah.

And he was like, I want to talk about, I want to talk about, listen, I ain't got time. I need your help, right? And that's the title of the show today. I ain't got time. I need your help. And then we're also going to talk about junior devs too, because Daniel and his team are going to are actually leveraging junior developers really well. And he gets pretty aimed about that. So the first part of our talk for the next 10, 15 minutes is going to be about how we can partner together, Daniel and I can partner together. And then the last half is going to be more focused on leveraging engineering developers.

And so, you know, Daniel, you know, what you and I are chatting off air is just like, hey, listen, like, like, I don't have time. I just don't have time. I don't have time to interview. I don't have time to do any of that. And so here's, so I'll give you my spiel, right? So I love it. So this is kind of a role play. So for everybody watching this morning, and listen, this is a little different. I'm not used to this, but I love this topic. And so I'm gonna dive in kind of what Vaco can do. So Daniel is a prospective client. So I'm gonna sell my services to Daniel right now.

So here we go. If anybody from Vaco is watching, this is the truest form of a role play where it's live on air with a CTO. So what I would tell folks like Daniel is like, listen first and foremost, like you don't have time, right? Daniel, in your day, realistically, how many, like in one day, in an ARA, eight hour day, how many minutes, eight hours, could you actually spend to recruiting? Like actually going out and finding talent. Realist. Taylor, Taylor, I'd say the last month, I'm going to bed after 3 a.m. more frequently than I'm going to bed before midnight. And that's not recruiting.

Yeah, no, that's like just, that's going live with banks, right? Right. That's just how much, how much time do I have to do? This is important work. This is good work and stuff I should be doing. How much time do I have for it right now? Goose. Exactly. So, so that's, so that's all me and my team does. Right. So all we do day in, day out is network with complete strangers and make them, well friends, right? Especially in engineering space and, and, and I think, I, one thing I'm so loud about on social media is the volume of people. Right. So Daniel's a friend of mine.

If I did not know Daniel, I would tell Daniel this. Listen, the average recruiter, the average recruiter meets around 10 to 15 people a week. That is what, that is what we are basically responsible for. Right. So if you extrapolate that out, and then there's Ian, what up, Ian? Ian, hey, Ian. I know, I know. If we extrapolate that out, right any year I'm bad at math so 10 times 52 weeks and years 520 people right that's one person on average is meeting 520 people and to be honest with you that's on the low end because that's not including network uh like networking events meetups conferences a lot of that stuff's kind of hard to track right so minimum 520 people we're probably looking at closer to probably 700-800 people a year that's one recruiter right now my team is relatively small we have three we have three people right now that are recruiting full time, but that's still around 2,400 engineers that are being met every single year, every single year.

And so what I tell people is that recruiting firms like ours, the agency, the agencies, right, not the internal recruiters at companies, the agency recruiters, we have a general, we have a daily pulse on the market, daily, right? You know, Daniel, as a CTO, you probably go to dice.com and you're like, I need salary information. You go to dice.com and pay a few bucks and download their year-end recap with salary, right? That's bogus. Because here's why. They are not out talking to every hiring manager and every engineer in the country like we are, right? We truly have the pulse on the market. So that's the first thing, right?

is literally we are just meeting people that is our sole responsibility day in day out. And hey, let me, what are you talking about? So I first thought I have on that is not only do you have the pulse on the market of people that are out looking, but you're just talking to people, right? And so there might be superstars that are like, hey man, you know what, I might be interested. Most people we talk to aren't on the market. Right. Most most people that we will try to find for your organization are not even looking right now. Beautiful. And so this is the first thing.

The second thing is that we take pride in kind of walking you through kind of the process right now is the next thing we do, and you're probably like, Taylor, like, well then how do you screen people? Great question, Daniel. First and foremost, we do this every time. Every person that we talk to, We zoom. Yeah, every person. Because we want to judge their, just their nonverbal and their verbal communication, right? Because let's face it, what would you say? 80% of somebody you hire is probably going to be their personality, how they engage, how they communicate, are they nice? That stuff anybody can screen out.

Right. Yes. So, you know, I think also as you move up in seniority, right? I mean, you are your scope of influence across the organization and even with customers increases, right? And so, not only do you need to be somebody that works well with the engineering team, but you need to be some, well, and also we're just so small, right? Like you need to be comfortable talking to the CEO. One higher, one higher where Yall are at, contour PETA, your entire organization. And that's where you have to have the trust. I talk about this all the time, right? I trust Daniel. Daniel trusts me, right?

There has to be such a high level of trust with your recruiting partner. Well, and okay, now I don't know if this is where you wanna go with this, but I know I really appreciate things that you have, like in previous content that you've been generating. And you've kind of been in the public sphere talking about how much vulgarity can I use on this show? Oh, sweet. The bullshit of modern tech interviewing, right? Yeah. It is counterproductive. It's ridiculous, right? And you know what? Maybe it works for Google and maybe it works for Amazon, but it's not going to work, right? For the mere mortals down here, right?

Like it's not going to work for me in that this is such a, Like if I'm gonna build something that is actually gonna be challenging and instructive and useful, that is a huge amount of time that I just don't. I ain't got, what was it the time of the show? I ain't got time for this. I ain't got time for that. So I know that Vaco does a vetting process that you guys have worked very hard on and I feel like I get to just take advantage of that, right? This is the thing that it works. Vaco knows that it works and the candidates know that it works for them, right?

I don't have to be in this ridiculous, uncomfortable spot of making up some nonsense. And I don't want to be. I do not want to be anywhere near the gotcha questions or like, hey, let's bring in this person that knows their stuff, but I want them to cry in the interview. That's nonsense, dude. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And then again, that's another conversation. I mean, Daniel's the type of guest where we can chat up for nine hours, which I seriously think next time. You need to have a public. I wanted a round table with a lot of engineering managers and have your part of it because I think I would be just an amazing conversation.

So I love it. And again, this process is long, so I'm gonna fly through it. So we do Zoom calls. We also, if my team is somewhat in question of somebody's skill sets, we do have a technical eval. Shout out Brad Westfall, he's a part of the React training team. We use a software called Questionable. This is not a paid ad. And to be honest, and if Brad was on the call, he could, he can definitely, if Brad, he would definitely agree with me. It's not the best tool, but it doesn't get us to miss that much. Like we don't miss, and that's huge. Because you get the 80-20 out of it.

Yeah, you get the 80-20 out of it. Because here's the deal, right? The likelihood is, it's so funny. The hiring managers expect perfection out of recruiters, but when hiring managers can't even hire correctly on the run. Yes, buddy. Yes. Right. So that's my thing. So from a, Ian just said he's getting a little echo. So I'm gonna turn down my speaker. It's probably my speaker. Mine's probably a little hot. So all that being said, that's really important. We test, we also reference as well. we can do references on the back end. This is between you and I think references are bullshit anyways. That's just me, right?

I think anybody can send contacts that are gonna speak highly of them. I think that's where you gotta be a little bit more intentional in the interview. I'm interested in your thoughts, Daniel, on references. I don't disagree. So like, what are the references you're gonna get? I'm not gonna give you the people that I'm not gonna give you my boss right now, because now I'm playing my hand. So you don't get the most up to date, the most recent experience from me. I'm not gonna give you anybody. I'm only gonna cherry pick the people that I want you to talk to. Right? So that's good.

Just, man. So all that being said, Daniel, so that's everything we provide, right? And on top of that, you know, especially for small organizations like yourself, we also do contract to hire as well. The reason why I think contract to hire is a little easier is because we handle all of the onboarding, right? we do the i9s, the W2s, we, you know, if, if you're not a fintech company and, and, and somebody else can use another machine, that's not obviously provisioned by y'all. We can handle that. So literally Daniel, if you like a candy, so hey, I like Taylor, I want, I want Taylor start on the 15th.

We go, okay, great. And we handle everything. Um, I love this already. I want Taylor writing code for me. How do I make this? Oh, you're, you don't know, you don't. Oh, oh, yeah, the candidate sure, not me though. No, you never, never. My problem solving skills are shit. So all that being said, so that's kind of what we provide. So Daniel, I see T.O., like what are your thoughts on that? And also two, man, like why do you think a lot of companies, and we've talked about this too, the fee gets a lot of people, but why else do you think companies are so resistant to this?

I mean, look, I think the resistance over the fee, look, there is value in being capital efficient, right? But my disagreement with this capital efficiency is it's like you're trying to like fix your your own transmission in your car yourself to save a few bucks. Like it's just, you know what, you need a professional to do that for a while. There are things that you need professionals to do for you. I think this is one of them. You guys have a far greater reach than I have. You have a far greater reach, like, look, I'm gonna confess something I don't like about myself right now.

I've been doing software for a very long time. Most of the people I know are middle-aged white dudes. You have far reach beyond my limit, you know, my crappy reach that I'm embarrassed about, right? I want different perspectives. It's not that like I want, I need, yeah, wide variety of perspectives. Also, I look, we are a hybrid remote, we're a remote company, we're a remote company, right? I live in Nashville. Vaco is all like, actually you personally have been to Cincinnati recently. Oh my gosh, that's a whole not a podcast. We're gonna talk about Skyline Chili. Oof. So I mean, you've got geographic reach, you have, you talked about each recruiter talking a couple of hundred people.

Like all of these things compound the vetting process, onboarding, this seems worth it to me, man. So let me ask you this. I think one of the biggest issues, and I do want to switch to the junior dev talk. Oh, yes, sweet. Very soon. Why do you think companies, because my thing is, is like, so I had a call with a company who's wanting to engage with us, we're in the contract phase right now. They're hiring 30 developers. And they're like, and it was interesting because we were talking to them and they were just as aware as us about having a good candidate experience. Not too many steps, not too many cooks in the kitchen.

It was a wonderful conversation. I think the biggest issue, I think the biggest issue, well, I'm interested in your thoughts, I don't know why hiring managers get us to do all those steps and then put people through their own thing. why I do know why, because they don't think we're good at it. Dude, it's a patrol thing. I love that. Buddy, you and I have spent this whole time talking about our perspective of it. But what about the perspective of the candidate? I want that person to have a great experience, right? And if you already have built out a smooth experience that just kind of gets a big one.

Why grill them another three rounds? I just get to be a good guy, right? Exactly. I'm the good guy like, hey, I got a problem. amazing because Taylor said you were I believe him and contract a higher and let's just be honest it's no risk for all of them. It's very much no risk for anybody even on the can it side like you could think Daniel sucks. He doesn't but you could think he sucks and you could bounce and it's fun. Yeah I love it. Alright so again that was very abbreviated we could keep talking about that. So let's talk about leveraging junior developers right so you know I think there are a very small amount of hiring managers that I know of that leverage junior developers, the ones that do hire junior developers, you have a better retention, also have better things to say about junior developers than they did before.

So talk about how you have thought out about leveraging junior developers, because I think a lot of companies just don't even know how to engage and implement and give them tasks. Yes. Buddy, I love this conversation. My TLDR is that I have said this for many years. And if you've been with me at Nashville Software School, you have heard me say, I think Nashville recruiters should be standing outside the doors of NSS ready to prison shank each other to get access to these candidates, right? Like, I'm gonna cut that clip and send it to NSS and they can do it like one ad to my office.

They know, they've heard me saying this. You're not prison shank people because you want that talent. I love it. Okay, so here's how this is, okay, first off, and if I can, I really am gonna spout specifically about NSS. So NSS, these tend to be people that have, they've already gone through college, they got a different degree. The very first person I ever hired from NSS, she got like a art history or like a library of sciences or something like that degree. And she actually did that job, right? And she enjoyed it. And it was fun. And she did it for a few years. And then she was just like, meh, right?

A person that works for me right now. He was a physical therapist, right? And he did that for a few years. And you know, like, hey, man, to high burn out. I mean, that's true. Man, that is a job, right? Yeah. So these people take a risk on themselves. They have been in the professional world for a while. They take a risk on themselves. They quit their job. They go to NSS and they grind and they learn and they learn skills that are immediately applicable to day one. They have business skills. They know how to go to meetings, right? They're a step ahead right here, right?

And when they come on, my experience has been, I can assign them tasks and they're writing code. They're committing code to GitHub as quickly as I can get all the laptops and provisioners and stuff going. Sure. Okay, another ingredient to that though, I think that has worked out really well for us at neural payments is I have, as a junior developer kind of gets on and we give him some tasks and things to work on and that person starts to excel. Well, what does a developer do once they start, like they grock it, man. They like, they start to see the matrix. They understand how the application is working, and they want more, right?

Okay, well, what's the bigger challenge I can have? Where can I go forward from here, right? And they make a personal updraft. So, okay, and I love it. Okay, it's time to maybe learn a new language. It's time to maybe learn a new piece of the application. It's time to grow that person that's kicking ass. Right? Well, as I grow that person that's kicking ass, that makes a vacuum below them for somebody to come in behind them, all of the things that they've been doing well at the thing they've been doing. They've automated some stuff, they've built out some documentation, they've killed a million bugs, right?

And it's kind of going pretty good. And that makes a fertile grounds to bring in a junior developer, right? Like add some features, man. Make this button look a little cooler. It's not like pants on fire. Oh my God, junior developer. you need to come in and save us from bankruptcy today. There's like, it's a cool place for them to like, come on board and take some time to learn and commit some changes to GitHub that are like valuable, but not earth shattering, right? And till that person gets it, right? And then they move forward. And this whole, so this whole thing kind of moves forward.

It gives them opportunities to mentor each other. This has been working out super well for us at neural payments. Do you, do you, so how does it work? Do you have a senior dev partner? Like how many, do you have one junior dev right now, right? We have, it's a teeny, weeny, itty bitty little teen. Sure. Yeah. It's like what? Three devs total or something like that? Confession time we lost a senior dev because he went to go, he went to go, man, I shouldn't say this on air. He went to go start a crypto company with his brother. That's not a good move. That a few weeks before.

Oh boy. Yeah. So yeah, small, small team. I mean, how do you see yourself scaling your organization, right? Obviously, you know, you're going to continue to grow, continue to get clients. How do you first see or what's your roadmap just in your head? Does not have to be right. What's your roadmap in your head to continue to bring in junior developers? Right. Okay. So I do got a backfill that senior person, right? That's sort of top of mind for me. So everything we've been doing literally for the past three years has been like scrambling to get to the moment we're at right now. So really for me like there's a product roadmap that's like you add this new button, add this new feature, add this new integration blah blah blah.

But that aside I think what you're really asking about is the organization and the culture, right? So it's time to transform the culture from doing all this like hacking to go oh my god to get things done to like building a stable organization where people like show open the morning and and they write some code and they've squashed some bugs, and they talk to a customer, and then they go home at night. So that requires stability, that requires just more, like we're so understaffed, it requires more hands. We can just, we two developers, we can be on a Zoom together, and we can just kind of work through a problem.

So I mean, those are really kind of the first layers of things we don't have any QA folks right now. Oh gosh, you know, Maybe that's a whole other topic for another conversation about like dedicated DevOps teams, as opposed to having more of like a full stack engineer that can do some of the DevOps teams. I mean, that's a whole another conversation. Yeah, I mean, I have to have to have to. Let's go back to junior Dev. So what's your biggest piece of advice for hiring managers to try to incorporate junior Devs that aren't using national software, like just in general? Okay. I think you do need senior engineers.

So to me, one of the hallmarks of a senior engineer is someone for whom I can hand them a subsystem and be like, Taylor, make it do. Here it is. Here's this piece of the application. I, it's yours to make it do. And that they can mentor other engineers, right? So I think you need that person that can take on the responsibility for the business and take on the responsibility for a person. Do you constantly look for that when you hire senior devs and just always having a like player coach mentality because you're gonna wanna build in junior devs. Like like, like do you think that needs to be that kind of an ethos of an organization if they wanna really adopt that mentality?

Yes. Hey man, look, we all know senior engineers and hold on, we've all maybe been guilty. I know I'm guilty of being the crusty old curmudgeon senior developer who like my way the highway, I know what I'm doing, you're dumb. You know, and some of that is just stress and some of that is life and stuff going on. But that's also, man, if it's a bad day, it's one thing. But if it's that person's personality, man, that's toxic. If you have somebody who writes amazing code and gets tons of stuff done, but the other teams don't want to work with that person, and it's not just one or two people.

There's more like whole groups of people like, like, man, I don't want to work with that guy. He's so mean, you know, that's toxic to the entire organization. So real quick and I'm interested. So, uh, Adriana, I can never convince any of my clients. I'm obviously higher and managed to hire junior devs. Daniel, give, give recruiters word tracks, give us like, give, give recruiters. A pitch that may work for CTO. Like what should we say to a CTO to consider junior devs? Okay. Yeah. I mean a fair amount of what I was just saying. Yeah. There was a little bit of me having to convince my CEO my CEO Does not live in Nashville.

He is not familiar with Nashville software school. So I had to convince him of the whole concept, right? So some of that was that A a Anyway for NSS and I think for some of the boot camps You're getting out of that boot camp with like hard skills like they can do JavaScript, right? Right and I think a challenge for someone coming out of an undergrad, in fact even a grad program is that they understand compiler theory. This is another conversation. Yeah man, I'm not building any compilers right here. I am building react applications, right? I need JavaScript. Can you add a button? We don't need copalt.

Yes, right. So they have immediately applicable skills, right? They have a very attractive salary requirement from the hiring managers perspective. And these people, like I said, these people just just took a huge bet on themselves. They are hungry, like they want to make this happen. They are gonna do everything they can, right? Like, I know talking about superstar and like ninja developers, I agree that that's sort of like, I don't know, that's a negative connotation with working people to death. That's not what I'm saying, is that they've got so much drive and they've got so much energy and they're malleable. They're not the salty old senior engineer who's seen it all and knows everything.

And you can't tell me, right? They want to learn, they want to contribute. They get excited, like smile on their face when they do that first commit that makes it all the way to production. Don't you want that, man? I love that. I love it. And is that what you told your CEO? Yeah, and dude, it's exactly what happened. Like, hey, hey, ACTO, do you want somebody who can come in who can actually code from the ground up, like hit the ground running who has a good salary requirement. It can help squash some easy fit. Could you even say, would it be okay for recruits to say, hey listen, if you need somebody hit the ground running, we've tested them, we know they're competent.

And who can literally help you in your organization squash out some bugs that no one's probably even touching. Is that good? Is that good for us to say? Yeah, I love it. Okay, awesome. And who can, like I was saying before, who can backfill your rising mid-level or rising senior engineer? you can give that person more responsibility. So it's more like, which is harder to find, right? And which is harder to honestly make a mistake on, right? You need a senior engineer who knows your system, right? Who can hit the ground running today? Or do you need a junior engineer that's like, hey, man, squish some bugs and get used to the system.

Well, you have a junior engineer who's ready for that challenge. You have a padawan that's ready to take the trials, right? That is a fantastic resource. You need to bring those people up, right? But you got to backfill them too. I love that. I love that. All right, Daniel, our time has come to an end, as it always does very quickly. So I've started to ask this question to everybody. I love it. Because we had guidance counselors in high school, we had guidance counselors in middle school. We don't really have guidance counselors now, they're called therapists now. What would be your biggest advice to your younger self?

My, wow, man, you gotta hit me with that, right and then I have a time limit to say something. You're good, you're good, you're good. My biggest advice to myself, actually, I think is slow down and don't make as many rash career decisions until you really thought it all the way out. I have some, yeah, maybe one more sentence on that one is, like, I have lived the life of an entrepreneur, you know, for three years. And there's been some really good moments in it. And man, there's been some hard stuff. Sure. Right. And maybe sometimes I kind of feel like I have good friends that I really enjoyed working with that stuck it out at the big cube farm that like they're vice presidents now.

They're just doing so well. And sometimes I kind of wonders like did I choose the high risk lifestyle out of why did I choose that? You know what I mean? Yep. I get it. I get it. I love it. All right, guys, guys and gals, thank you again for hanging out there. Say we've had a lot of comments. We had some people go over Skyline. I'm going to be on Skyline sucks. It is a bomb in a ball garbage gravy. And that's a quote from a travel writer. Eric goes Skyline, Chile. So my wife, you're up with us, it's Patty. We tried Skyline and like, you know what, like the amount of cheese they give you is absolutely absurd.

Like the amount of shredded cheese is unreal. It is not great. So let's see here, what else? So Trey, I wanna get these real quick. I never wanna miss questions. How can I work with A.C.S. and Junior recruiting agency to increase the odds? Listen, here's the deal, just stay close to us. Leverage the crap out of me. resume writing, LinkedIn writing. If I always talk about this, I would go to a lunch coffee, whatever with a recruiter once a month. One new recruiter a month in your market and just ask them questions. Who's hiring? Who should I stay away from? Who is using junior developers well?

A lot of us know which companies are leveraging junior developers well. So even if we can't, even if we're not working on the roles, we can make those introductions. So that's incredibly important. So that's how it would use us. Obviously we had a few NSS people. Sweet. Time in today. RJ comes in. If you can hire and train juniors, we'll have an infinite pilot pilot. There you go. Only hires you. So this is big. So I want to talk about this too real fast. Yes. There you go, RJ. I'm late two minutes late to a call. I will tell you this. My dad is even.

So my dad runs a restaurant, and he's looking for pizza cooks. And he says, he goes, it is impossible to find a pizza cook. I said, it's impossible to find a pizza cook. developer too dad joined join the club and so what you know what my dad said to me he goes I think I'm gonna start going to high schools and I'm gonna go to their kind of their what is it called not their career ed but like they're a trade school like their trades or within the high school to their culinary and start passing on my business card I said dad I said I think that's brilliant the thing is is I think right now leaders in any organization whether flipping pizzas and restaurants to hiring dabs you got to get creative and I think this is the way to do it.

Let's see here. Wow, so much coming in. Yeah, so we'll wrap up here. Again, thanks y'all for hanging out with us this morning. Daniel, stay on real quick. And so I can say bye to you all there. But y'all, thank you again tomorrow morning. I got my dear friend Cameron Gdaeon. He's a product, a marketing product person at Dell, who's diving into the content game. And he was like, Hey man, I want to go live with you. And we can talk about my journey about getting started on content. So tomorrow's content generated or tomorrow is around content. And then I'm off for the rest of the week.

And Austin from my brother's 30th birthday. So whoop. Love y'all mean it. Y'all have a great Monday. Thanks, fam. Thanks for the comments. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful. Because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store I want this to be discoverable to others and the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and Review it please like right now Unless you're driving then don't do it.

So thank you again If you need to reach out to me Taylor at Vaco.com or at T. Dessen on all social media handles And I hope you have a fantastic day