english lit to software developer w/my dear friend kasey wahl

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. So that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it for it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco VACO.com is how to get in touch with me old-fashioned email, social media at tdesntesnyn. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. enough to be running my mouth. Case is good to people what they want. Who are you? What do you do? I'm gonna go in there. Yeah, so I'm Casey Wong. I'm a junior developer. I've only been doing this for a year now, which is crazy, but my story to get where I am right now started with COVID-19.

Just straight about the most crazy COVID-19 story that you've probably heard. And that's not what you're talking about. We're gonna talk about it for sure. Yeah, yeah. So, but I made the transition. I was an English teacher working in China when that kind of fell through for some crazy reasons. I had to find something else. And I got into tech and that started me on this crazy journey and is, you know, what landed me here. So I love it. That's that. So, Casey, I wanna go and dive into your crazy story. So when I first met Casey, I was like, Casey, man, tell me about yourself.

And he was like, yeah, you all believe this. And he told me his story. So Casey, can you give a quick rundown of your story from COVID on? Yeah. So January 10, 2020, I was living in Beijing. I was teaching at a boarding school, a high school in North side of Beijing. I lived 40 minutes from the Great Wall, and I never got to see it. Oh, crazy. It's not fun. But yeah, it's just nuts. but I didn't know that I wasn't going to be going back. So January 10th, I flew out of Beijing, went back to the States to see my family, because it's Chinese New Year, so everyone's traveling in January in China.

So flew back, and then while I was home in the States, there started to be these weird murmurs coming out of China, like, there's something weird happening in Wuhan and some weird stuff happening, and I don't know, we're gonna keep an eye on it. And then I got some correspondence from my school. They were like, hey, we're not going back to school. So we're going to be online, but we need you to get back to Beijing. And at the same time, I was hearing things from the US side. The government's like, do not travel to China. Do not go. So I told myself, OK, well, I'm going to go to Thailand.

So I'm going to be close to China, but not in China. And I'll teach remotely from there. And then when the US government gives me the green light, then I'll pop back to Beijing. It's going to be a thing. So ended up, you know, sitting on Thailand for a while. Quick little thing, just a quick little. Yeah. Sorry, sorry. What was that? No, I just was making a joke that it's just gonna be a quick, a quick little, quick little blip on the radar, near radar. It was not a quick, quick little blip. Oh, it was not a quick blip. So yeah, sorry, long story short.

Got to Thailand, got stranded in Thailand, ended up back in the States when it was all said and done cause trying to shut the border had to find something else. You had to take like a boat back, right? Like we can't, you had to like basically struggle. Well, not back to the States. So I had to take a, I had to like get on a commercial ferry from Thailand or from the island I was on back to Bangkok and then from Bangkok they had humanitarian flights flying out, but like the ferries were close, like the passenger ferries were closed. I had to get on like a commercial ferry.

It's kind of crazy. It's crazy, crazy. So ended up back in the States. And I think that's pretty much where we met. So you settled in what, South Dakota? Yep, yep. They're crying. Yeah, and so. That's beautiful. Yeah, yeah, not many people from South Dakota that know. So I want to talk about bootcamp, right? So I talk a lot about this and I don't know what goes in. I don't know what goes into a bootcamp. So what bootcamp did you go to and why did you choose that one? So when I decided, you know what? there's a lot of transferable skills between English and tech in terms of like language acquisition.

Sure. You know, I spent the time learning Mandarin. I was like, I can be comfortable doing that. I did a ton of research on, okay, well, if I'm going to do this, I'm not going back to college. I already have a degree. I don't have the luxury of going for another four year degree. So that kind of rolled out the whole computer science degree. I did a bunch of research online, found a few different like ways to become a software developer. there's the self-taught route, and then there's bootcamp route. And I've watched a ton of videos, read a lot of articles about the pros and cons of doing each.

And I settled on going to bootcamp route because it seemed like the shortest distance between two places for me. So I decided to say, I decided like, well, I'm gonna do a bootcamp. I don't really have the luxury of teaching myself everything. And I know that if I get stuck trying to learn this thing, I don't really have the luxury of time to just sit and figure it out. I put all the chips on the table and went all in on becoming a software developer. So I went to Coder Foundry. I found them through their YouTube channel. And then I had applied probably to a dozen different boot camps.

And Coder Foundry was the only one to me, from my analysis that seemed like they really were looking for people, like they were investing in me as much as I was investing in the program. You know, there were a few programs, you know, and I'm not going to like, you know, call out anybody, any other boot camp because I haven't taken any other boot camp. But there were a few where it just seemed like, OK, you're going to apply. But as long as you give us money, like, you're in, we're going to do the thing. But Coder Foundry seemed very like, no, no, we don't just want any and everyone in here.

We want people who are going to take this seriously. Because we're going to take you seriously. everything from, you know, by the time I got in an interview, like I had to go through an interview to get into the boot camp first. Uh, and when I went into that interview, um, you know, the, the guy who interviewed me, first of all, he's like the face of the YouTube channel that they have too. So I was like, Oh, recognizable face. Right. And then after that, he was already asking about, so you were living in China. What were, okay, what did you learn there? What, what, why did you decide to come to the, like he knew everything about my background when I got into that interview.

And that gave me a lot of confidence with the program. And I think like following through with it, I mean, it was a great program. I felt like for what they advertised, like I got my money's worth out of the program. And I felt really equipped by the time I was done with it. Did you do like three months, six months, a year full time, part time, give me kind of some color on that. Sorry, can you say that one more time? It kind of broke up just a little bit. Yeah, did you do like three months, six months, 12 months, part time, full time?

It was full time, three months. So it was fast and furious. Yeah, it was full time, three months. And if there was anything like, I wish it was longer, just in term because like, I learned a ton and there was a lot more to learn, but at the same time, you know, I worked hard for those three months, man. I was, I think it was like 10 to 12 hours a day every single day, personally. Like we had eight hours a day of instruction. And then I vowed every day, two to four hours before or after class going in, reviewing, you know, I recorded every single lecture.

I went back and watched recordings of things that I didn't understand. So it was, it took a lot. It was dedication. What's your biggest advice or a few tips for people wanting to get into code school? Cause I kind of want to dive into what you just said too about you took extra time. You recorded the sessions. You know, I think one thing I admire about you is you're super intentional, at least you seem like it, how you kind of operate everything. What's some key piece of advice for junior devs that may watch this now in the future who may be debated on a bootcamp?

Do your research, not all bootcamps are the same. Ask questions if you get the opportunity. First of all, like see if they give you opportunities to ask questions, is there an interview to get into the bootcamp? Do you talk with a real person to get into the bootcamp? When you do ask them questions, ask about, what kind of contract am I entering into? What is your obligation and what is my obligation when it comes to this bootcamp? And what do they say they're going to give to you? And then for me, I went on LinkedIn and I asked, I found other people who had been through Coder Foundry.

And I was like, hey, what was your experience with Coder Foundry? And for me, like doing that, I got very consistent feedback from graduates. I found graduates who had already found jobs and they were, you know, they kind of gave me of a forecast of what to expect. And that again, gave me a lot of confidence in the program itself. Well, you know, just do your research. Absolutely do your research. I love that. So, so you went to boot camp. Talk about your mentality going through boot camp, right? right? And again, I try to really dig into the mentality of it. Cause I feel like the, the, the individuals that I've talked to on this show that I've gone through boot camp that have been successful.

There is a grind mentality. Can you talk about the mentality you had going through boot camp and maybe some, some things that were playing in your head every single day. Cause I'm sure I'm sure it's, I'm sure it's three months of anxiety ridden just you're trying to learn. You had a job. But it was it was a little anxiety ridden, but for me, it was more just because of my circumstances at the time. Like I didn't have a job. I had a degree. I had student loans and everything I owned was in another country halfway around the world. So, um, circumstantially, I was like, well, this is it.

Like this is it's this or like it's like pass or fail. So for me, the mentality was you have to do this. You have to. You do this or you're letting yourself down. And that wasn't me. I'm not the type of person who likes to put tons of pressure on himself. So I don't want to come across this super hardcore guy, because I'm not. I'm a pretty laid back person most of the time about most things. But in this particular circumstance, it was like, I have to do this. So, but at the same time, you know, for me personally, I was like, well, I've done harder things than this too.

Coding is hard. It's really hard. It's not, it's not like surviving a pandemic card and it's not like learning Chinese hard. So I was like, intellectually or in my head, I was like, I know I know I can do this. I know I can. But, you know, I've done the research. I know what kind of dedication this is going to take. So that's what I got to do. And I guess that's- Go ahead. Oh no, I was just gonna say that was the mentality. It's sink or swim. And you know you can do this. So just do it. Do you see any junior devs commonly make the same mistakes over and over again?

So you said, yeah, just makes the same mistake over and over again. Yeah. Do you see junior devs going through boot camps, making kind of similar mistakes that you maybe want to talk about at all? at all. I think that I think the mistake that I see the most is admitting defeat too early or not taking in not taking inventory of like okay if there's something I don't understand like not going to the thing that they don't understand and asking this thing this is that I've identified a concept or I've identified like a framework or something or I've identified a context that I don't understand and now I need to understand it and then asking about that thing.

I think that's the one thing that people, people just say, ah, coding is hard, I don't understand it, I'm gonna quit or I'm gonna get defeated where it's like, no, no, no, there's only one thing or there's one, two, three, four, five. Like right for me, what I did is I wrote them out and I said, I don't understand why this thing I'm doing isn't working. or I don't understand dot notation or object oriented programming. And like, that's like the super, super basic stuff, right? But like that's where I was at at one point. Everyone is. Yeah. So ask those things. Like you have, you can't know what you don't know.

You have to go out and find out. And that's the biggest mistake is getting defeated too soon and then not following up on the thing you don't understand. I love it. I love it. So all right. I want to, I want to jump into kind of the next thing. And, and I think it's, it's how you and I got connected, which is content, right? And again, I know people like, damn, here we go again. Tell me about content again. So talk about your, and then real quick, Raymond, it's great to see you, buddy. It's great to see you the other night as well. And then Garrett, it's great to see you.

It's definitely been a minute. So it's good to see you, buddy. So Kasey, let's talk about content, right? Talk about what got you interested in content, and then we'll obviously talk about where you've gone, and you're rolling out some pretty cool stuff, which I'm a big fan of. So talk about when you started to see the ROI with content, even as a junior developer. The ROI, it's amazing how quickly I felt like I was getting some return, not necessarily a job, not necessarily an offer, but it was like, oh, like, you're an interesting person, you're doing interesting things. Yeah. And like whenever I would talk to a new recruiter, like and predominantly through LinkedIn in my area, talking, just, you know, messaging people or like one thing I would do on this show.

I would be in the comments talking with whoever was on that day and inboxing them afterwards and saying, hey, I love what you said about this thing. But, you know, I was very, I was trying to be really intentional with the questions I was asking to whoever might be on if it was a hiring manager and have important questions to ask and then say, hey, I actually just wrote something about a concept you talked about. And I really resonated with that concept. Can you talk to me more individually about it? And it was cool because I could talk with somebody and they could either like correct or refine my understanding of something.

So one, all of a sudden I'm learning. Or two, I'm putting something in front of a hiring manager like, hey, here's a project that I built and here's some core concepts that I'm learning, what kind of feedback do you have? Or when I put my resume in front of a recruiter, hey, here's also some content that I've made on some core topics, or I'd finish an interview and say, hey, we talked about this in the interview today. If you wanna know more about what's going on in here, I made a YouTube video to check out this project that I'm working on, or check out this piece of content that I wrote that kind of shows the depth of my understanding of the subject.

And I think ultimately that's what ended up landing me the current job that I have, because the hiring manager straight up went through to my content and looked like he looked through my GitHub repos, checked out the content that I wrote. There was a question I got in the interview that I didn't know how to answer. And before the second interview, I sent him an article that I wrote about the topic that I didn't understand in the first interview with a full explanation and a coding sample saying, hey, I didn't understand this a couple days ago, but I do now. Here's what I know about it.

That's huge. So, all right, so you started. So, all right, I said we're gonna talk about content. I want to talk about networking there real quick. Talk about networking, talk about how you did it as well, and then we'll kind of go back to the content thing. So let's talk on the networking side real fast. Like what was your strategy to network as a junior developer coming out of bootcamp? First part of the strategy was talking to people who had taken my bootcamp previously and asking them how they got their jobs and how they networked. Yeah, that coder found out. Absolutely. I preach that all time.

Start with your community first. Yep. Yep. Yep. And it was amazing too. There were two or three people who I still talk to today. There was one guy, the guy who I would say was the most helpful. Towards helping me learn how to network from coder foundry specifically, because like this show helped a lot too. Like very specific, you know, not just trying to like stroke egos or anything, but it did. Like this show was great. But the one guy specifically, like he reached out to me last week, he was like, hey man, I'm looking to see what's out there. You know, I've got a great job, but I'm looking for something else.

Like if you, if you hear anything, you know, send it my way. And so like we're still communicating like with the, with those people who, who were there at the very beginning. So I asked them like, Hey, what are you doing to network? Yeah, yeah. Sorry. I would say, well, what were those conversations like? Cause I think that's what freaks people out. Like I'm supposed to message people, random people. It's like what were those conversations like? Conversations were, well first it was, okay, I have some quotas for the number, how am I trying to say this? Being intentional about not just reaching out to everyone, not like not every recruiter on the planet, but you know, using the filters on LinkedIn to filter by my area or filter by the tech stack that I use and then finding people within that tech stack who are hiring managers or recruiters specifically and saying, hey, I'm so and so and I noticed that you, I try to find some reason beyond just, hi, I'm looking for a job to talk to somebody.

I don't want to be all work and I want to like be relatable on more than a do something for me content. Like, no, like let's, let's be interesting people together too. If not friends, because there's a couple recruiters who I still talk to who are just, I consider them friends now, you know, and that's cool. Like I'd rather it be like that than. What were those conversations like that with coder foundry people? I mean, like, like, was it, Hey, I saw where you went to coder foundry. I'm graduating. How did you find a job and was it that specific? Um, kind of, well, the first guy that I got connected to, well, I asked like the instructors, I was like, hey, who's crushing it right now?

Who graduated and who's doing great? And they were like, oh, this guy, this guy, this guy just got a job and he was in our last cohort. He got a job before the cohort even finished. Why don't you reach out to him? And so not only did I reach out to him, but then he was like, hey, you know what, let's Let's get a group of people in the current cohort together. Let's be on a Saturday morning for whoever wants to go and I will walk you through what I do every single day or what I did to get my job before I even finish.

So like we met there were probably eight people in our cohort who got together with the one person and he like again I recorded the whole thing. I still have that content that he just volunteered his time and showed us all his like boyfriend for how he reached out. What was that person's secret sauce? I'm trying to remember, like, what? Was there anything that kind of popped out? What was the thing? I think the thing with him was volume. It was before he even graduated, he was spending time every morning and every evening, after class and before class, connecting to recruiters on LinkedIn and connecting to people.

Like, it was persistent and consistent. And this was a guy too. This was a guy who graduated with a computer science degree and then did a bootcamp for the portfolio. Like he did the portfolio in addition to a CS degree. So he is already like probably a step ahead of a lot of people. So full disclosure too, like he already had more up than a lot of people probably do coming out of a bootcamp, but he also like he had a mission and he was implementing that every single day and didn't let setbacks discourage him. He was like, no, no, no, no, I'm gonna do this.

And so he was doing it through the course of the bootcamp before he even got out. And to me that was important too, because once you finish a bootcamp, there's a huge shift in what your priorities are. You're still learning to code, but you're not eight hours a day coding, and then networking a little in the evening, you flip that around and you're like, now I'm networking eight hours a day or applying for jobs and making content. That's the bulk of what you're doing. And I'm coding to continue to learn in public and stuff too. But if you don't start practicing how to network before you end the bootcamp, day one after the bootcamp, you kind of like the dust settles and you're like, wait, what do I do now?

Like what's the next thing that happens? So let's talk about that, right? Again, kind of going from 0 to 1 out of bootcamp. So boot camp structured coming out of boot camp, no structure. How did you structure your days? And this is something I get really specific on with every guest out of boot camp. How did you structure your days out of boot camp? It was a learning curve. I'll say that much. It wasn't like day one out of the boot camp. I had an idea of what I was doing. And then I just stuck with it. It was a learning curve. I had to learn how to record all my interactions with recruiters.

I had to keep track of all my applications. I had to keep track of what recruiters were next to, connected to what jobs. I had to learn how to allocate time to creating content. And that content strategy couldn't just be, today I want to post about this thing. There kind of had to be like, I was working on this, and now I'm working on this that improves on this, and that improves on this, or content that's, and some of it was just networking content too, like, hey, I had a really cool conversation with someone, so the other day, thanks for taking some time to meet with me.

So I had to start being intentional about the ratio of what I'm posting about too. And actually, maybe we can save it, because I was gonna say like, this tool that I created a tool to help people with that process immediately out of a bootcamp so that they don't have to have as big of a learning curve after they finish that bootcamp. Yeah, and we can definitely, we can have to talk about that. Maybe another session, we can talk about trying to get today too. I want real quick instruction in your day, what would your mornings look like in general and what would your afternoons look like in general?

We don't have to go hour by hour, but as a whole, what did you do in the mornings and what did you do in the afternoons? Mornings I prioritized getting a job. Like my best thinking hours were like, Okay, this is when I'm reaching out to people. This is when my mind feels fresh. This is when I feel the most personable. You know, this is what I want to do the work of finding the work. And then usually in the afternoons, that was more, okay, now I'm in a code. I'm in a code in the afternoon, or I'm going to capture what I learned in the morning and then turn that into content.

And you know, sometimes there was a little bit of flipping of that to you just depending on like, on a situational basis, but I would say, I would weigh the mornings heavily towards job applications and networking, and then the evenings towards, or afternoons and evenings as more like coding and continuing to build my portfolio. I love that, I love that. Last thing I wanna talk about today, and again, time flies when you're having fun friends, contract to hire. So your first job was contract to hire. Talk about why maybe more people should look at to hire, especially at Cominada Code School. Well, for me, it was a pretty obvious that the interview for me went well with the company that I was with.

I felt like, I felt like, and I had some interviews too, and I was told to, hey, whatever your first job, like whatever your first offer is, just take it. Like, you need, like, that's the hardest part is getting the first job. So even if it's under market, like still take it, because once you have that job experience, it's way easier to get to the next job. That was the advice I was given. I still turned down the first offer I got because there were just red flags, I mean, it was like red flags all across the board. But with the contract to hire gigs specifically, like it was competitive, it was fully remote.

I had a really good conversation with the hiring manager, And then I had a whole conversation with the whole team that I'd be working with too like in that second interview And it was only two interviews which was also like cool You're not gonna drag me along this whole time That was sweet and the second one I got to meet the whole team the team that I work with today everyone who I work with today Was there which was really really cool So like I felt really good accepting that offer and then For me like there was a lot of confidence too and like hey, I'm showing up for work every day I'm learning every day and like this company didn't contract to hire me to not hire me on Like I said like they want to invest in me You know and when it in when that contract term was done.

It seemed pretty obvious like yeah We've we've invested in you a lot and we're pretty confident in just like offering you the full-time position at the end of it All so to me it was Barrett comes in I mean contract hires a road to getting screwed so I Listen, listen, there are a few topics that cause World War 3 among people. It's resumes, LinkedIn, and contract hire. I understand what you're saying. But let me ask Casey this. Casey, did they set the expectation that they really wanted to hire this person? Was that ever discussed? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Like, when it was, and for me too, again, I think that there might be the caveat of this is my first job in tech.

So again, it's like, even if I work one contract and they don't hire me at the end of it, now I have of experience that I have on a resume. Job number two is going to be way easier to find. So maybe if I'm like in a middle going into a senior level, maybe it's a little bit different of a story. But for someone who had like, and full disclosure, I had like $48 in my bank account at that point. what I had dedicated a year to like everything I'd saved up from working overseas was like depleted after a year. And like it was go time.

And it worked out for me. It worked out pretty well. I like the company I work for. I feel like it's been they've been fair with me. They've been really transparent with me. So like that might be part of it too. Maybe some contract to hires aren't as transparent, but it worked out well for me. And that's where too. I mean, I think going back to Barrett's thing, I think the problem with contract to hire is that job seekers Don't always ask the right questions, right? Yeah, and again Barrett comes in here and I get it right. They're all long on promise short and delivery.

I understand that right That's why I created the 10 questions to ask recruiters To and those are actually more targeted towards contract to hire because it takes more onus on the individual to ask questions to make sure they're not getting screwed, right? Does this position have budgetary approval from a salary perspective, the end to go perm? Have you placed people perm before? I mean, there was, there's one company in Nashville that me and my team have in the past placed their entire software engineering team contract to hire. And the reason why this company is contract hires the CTO hates the main HR and does everything contract to hire to get past the HR, but then converts all of them, right?

So you have to know the story behind contract to hire to make sure you do not get screwed. But I do agree and I'm not going to deny most recruiters shitty, most companies are shitty contract to hire can burn you. I'm not naive to that fact. All right. So Casey, as we wrap up here, I know, you know, we don't have time to talk about obviously your stuff that you've developed, but do you want to kind of talk about maybe some tools that you're in the process of developing or posted recently to help other job seekers. Yeah, so I created a LinkedIn workflow. I built it in Notion, so it's not like heavy tech stuff, but if you've never used Notion before, there can be a learning curve to it.

The tool that I've made, it really doesn't require a lot of knowledge of the platform. And really, all it is, it's a checklist with a built-in journal, it's got a recruiter database, a job search database, where you can keep track of all the people you're talking to, all the jobs you've applied for, and where you're at in that process. And then also there's a content creation calendar, it's like a Kanban board type of thing too, and it's just all in one place, and you can check off everything that you've done for the day. And there's a high-energy mode and a low-energy mode, because you know, like for me, there were days where it was tough, man, there were days where mentally where it was like, I'm on day 62 of not having a job and I've been busting my butt every single day trying to get it.

So like there's one where it's like even on those days where you need to just take a mental break, here's like your minimum viable amount that you can do to say, okay, at least I made progress today. At least I did something today. You can check that out. It's on my LinkedIn profile. I'll post it again today too. if you're looking for a first job and it's free. I don't want like, for me, I could have never afforded a tool like that at the late stage of everything, you know. So I don't want to create roadblocks for people who are trying to break in. Hopefully it can like help someone who just needs a little bit of stress, for me, I have ADHD.

So like, checklists are big for me. I need a little bit of structure to help me kind of get through my day. And that's, so I made something that helps people like me, at least I think it can help people like me. So check it out if you need. So I'll tag you in our in the post today. If you want to drop the link, it also it's cool Casey. I would love to house that on my website as well for other people. So let's definitely make that happen. All right. So last question and we'll wrap it up here. Last last question. So we had guidance counselors in middle school and high school and we kind of had them in college But now not so much.

What would be your best piece of a career advice to your younger self? Best. That's a great question. Best piece of career advice to your younger self. Man, I, there's a lot of good ones. I usually learn people I ask this. Everyone's like, whoa, it's a great question. Give me a second. Yeah, no, I'd say the biggest piece of career advice is I would say Be open-minded and try things and ask questions that like I know that's like super vague and big but like When I was younger when I was in college, I was so scared of making mistakes. That's it prevented me from like trying things a lot of times and Sometimes you just got to learn from mistakes too like so getting rejected from jobs is an important thing to have happened because in some fields less so than, like in some fields, like when I was teaching English, I got just about every job that I wanted based just kind of on that industry and what my skills were.

Getting into tech though, that first barrier of entry was really big. And so like, I wasn't braced for the amount of rejection I was gonna face right away. Once I, once it happened enough and once I kind of learned the game, you know, it's just, oh, I just got to keep doing it. It's literally not a reflection on me as a person. But you do have to be persistent and you have to learn things and you have to be responsive and open to criticism. And you have to talk to other people who are going through the same thing as you. And all that requires is being open-minded, asking questions, and working through adversity.

It's just something you have to do it. And so to my younger self, I would say that thing. I love that, that's awesome. So y'all, thank you again for hanging out with us today. I'm guidance counselor at 2.0. Hopefully you learned something. Casey, thanks again for hanging out with me. Paul, it's great to see you buddy. Can't wait to hang out with you at Little Rock Tech Fest this week. Arthur, it's great to see you as well. Casey, everybody seems to be loving that idea. So yeah, Casey, drop that in the link or drop that in the comments that I'll have on my side. Casey, you enjoy the rest of your Monday, man.

y'all have a great one and we'll see y'all tomorrow. Peace. Awesome. Have a good one guys. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others and the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it. Please, like, right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it.

So, thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, Taylor at Vaco.com or at T-Dastin on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.