catching up with a shopify recruiter w/alain robineau

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. So that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it for it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco, VACO.com is how to get in touch with me old fashioned email social media at T D S and T D E S S E Y N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. I hope you enjoy the episode. Enough with me. Elaine Taylor, let's give the people what they want. Who are you man? What do you do and we'll go from there? I, yeah, I'm a Canadian based out of Ottawa, working at Shopify recruiting specifically for data science.

Like many folks in recruiting did not get my start in recruiting, a lot of work with schools, but always focused on helping people with their careers. And then when I finally moved to Ottawa got a job at a Canadian University helping students land internships with amazing tech companies. So after eight years of that, building those relationships, helping companies hire the best students. The very first time for change, landed at a company where I had a relationship with the hiring team. And that was the start of my recruiting career. I love it, I love it. So how long you been at Shopify for now? It's been 11 months and it's arrived.

It's constant evolution, constant change, but a lot of impact is amazing. I love that. So I want to get into, I guess, like recruiter 101 super high level, right? So there's two types of recruiters out there, at least I'm aware of. There's an agency, which is me, and there's corporate, which is you. So I want to talk about corporate recruiting, right? I talk agency all the time. They don't want to hear me talk anymore. Like what is your job consist of, right? Like if you were to give like Monday through Friday and you could put your job into buckets, what would it be? Because to be quite frank with you, I'm still unclear.

Yeah, I mean, whether you're in house or agency that is definitely a lot of parallels, right? Your role is to help connect people who want to work with the jobs that need to be filled. Within the corporate world, what I'm doing day to day is constantly following up with candidates, making sure we're moving through the stages. I'm reviewing interview feedback, making sure the hiring manager, the hiring team is seeing what they need to see. And if it's a yes, reaching out, getting those next steps scheduled for that individual. Outside of that, there's a lot of meeting with the team. So the hiring team's constant communication ensuring that you're on the right track, bringing for the right candidates, for the right roles at the right time.

Right. Yeah, and then of course there's the fun stuff, like giving offers, right? Being able to high five virtually. Yeah. And sharing in people's successes to help people get to that next level. And then there's the less fun stuff, which is having to say no to somebody. But on that topic, I'm a huge believer in feedback. So I take time out of my day, every day, whenever possible to give folks feedback. I feel like that's only fair given the time and the effort that they put into the interview process. I love that. Why do you think, and I'm curious, you brought up feedback. Why do you think it's such a, it's so difficult for folks?

I mean, I know I've heard things like it's HR, it's, you know, they don't want, they don't want to get concerned by getting their hands slapped. I mean, how do you all give feedback at Shopify to where you give feedback and you don't have to worry about the HR ramifications? I don't know that you never worry about the HR ramifications. I think you do need to be able to be careful. You do need to read the individual that you're speaking with as well, right? For the most part, I've been really lucky. The candidates, when I give them that dreaded email feedback, I do immediately give them the link so they can book time with me.

Oh, wow. So they book time, whatever, they're free and I'm free. And then I'll jump on that call and I'll run them through kind of what I want. So for the most part, I've yet to run into a candidate who's like, you guys got it wrong, you're wrong. Let me interview again for what it's worth so far. It's always been really well received. And one of the things about being open to receiving feedback has a company. We want folks who take feedback, who action it, and who improve based on that feedback. So when someone sits down with me after all this, I'm done and is receptive, I can see where they went wrong, start thinking about a game plan for what they can do next to improve.

That's amazing. And that goes into their profile. I will absolutely jot that down. So we know next time someone comes through that they're all down with their values. I love that. And I think too, I mean, I think it's so important. And I love the fact that you take time to take the call, right? Let me ask you this, what percentage of you can't actually book a time that gets rejected? Is it more than 50% or less than 50%? Yeah, I'd say more than 50%. Really? Yep. Wow. OK, that's all. Yeah, I hear a lot that a lot of folks are going through the interview process.

If they even get a rejection email, that's great. Oftentimes, if they're getting feedback, it's never face to face. So the folks that I'm sitting down with, I hear a lot, this is the first time someone has taken the time to chat with me like this. We're giving me this level of detail or really help me understand where I fell short. Cause for a lot of folks, there are people who will reapply again several times before getting in. So if you wanna help people out and make sure that they're able to grow and land in a place that they're passionate about, why wouldn't we give them that little bit of feedback, right?

Well, and I've pulled the audience, I guess you could say, about how I feel like if companies actually were intentional at giving feedback, they would develop a better brand for themselves in the market. And thus having people, literally, I posted the other day, I said, if a company gave you feedback, would you be willing to send your friends to that company even if you got rejected? And the answer was resounding, yes. And that's why I think too, I think so many people don't understand that the interview process is there for is like, you know, we spend so much money on ad dollars, right? I mean, let's face it, Shopify, everybody, right?

Ad dollars, marketing, can treat people like pregnant humans because that's what they deserve, right? Seriously. There's a lot of what's happening, I think, with recruiting, but it's a symptom of the fact that there's too much on their plates. Okay, say that one more time. What did I just say? Something along the lines of, I think a lot of what's happening so the negativity surrounding the recruitment industry is a symptom of the fact we have too much on the plates. It's so true. I'm erupting here. I'm gonna get hot. I'm gonna get hot here for a second. Listen, all of us are fucking overwhelmed. Give us some fucking patience.

Again, I'm sorry for the cursing on this Monday morning, but listen, listen, I'm sure you're up to your eyes with notifications and I mean, even the amount, I was thinking about the amount of messages that I'm sure recruiters receive on a daily basis. How many, just all the DMs, all the DMs, all the techs, all the slacks, all of it, you're probably what, three, four, 500 messages a day, probably? Well, yeah, and it's crazy, right? And that's just some of the folks that you're not already in progress with, right? Also, an interviewer has to decline because something happened at home or a candidate decline because they've got something happening with business.

It's never just straightforward, loaded, done, and out of the way, right? There's always a burning fire somewhere. So all these messages, they're tough. They're definitely tough, but yeah. Yeah. You know, I was joking with you this morning, Taylor. I said, I'm part of two groups that are hated in this world right now. It's recruiters and cyclists. So it's tricky and not to go into the mushy, uh, feely stuff, but we can all do it a little bit more love, I think a little bit more empathy. Oh, good. Yeah. Well, and so I'm glad you brought this up, right? I'm really, really big on deploying empathy on the job search.

I just am. And I think it's, I think it's vital. And I think there's many different ways to deploy empathy in the job search. I think there's deploying empathy and being like, Hey, listen, maybe you're not a senior super architect like you think you are or hey, maybe, you know, this isn't the company I should work for right now or hey, maybe I should treat Taylor or Lane correct and nice, right? So talk to me about your thoughts about candidates and just the candidates that you see deploy empathy and that may be obviously leading the witness here are obviously probably gonna be easier to work with and then ultimately gonna be given a nod from you if a spot opens up that they weren't originally a fifth floor.

It's although building relationship in a court, right? I love being human with folks. I infuse that into every part of my process. Let's say I'm sourcing, for example, I'm reaching out to people, I get all kinds of searching. I am not one of those people who believes in just throwing out 500 LinkedIn in-mail messages and seeing what sticks. I do my research, I find out what people are about. I mean, there was this one woman I wanted to chat with who during the start of the pandemic was learning how to cook for herself. So I read her blog, found out what recipe she was into, and that's how I connected with that individual, right?

Was, you know, let's talk about recipe. What do you got that's good for the family of three that's easy to make, that kind of stuff? So connecting on that level also helps me remember who you are, and that can happen through a lot of different ways, right? Through conversations, obviously, like the initial form screen or the other subsequent interviews. But being human is that connection. We're still people. You may work remote with somebody, but you're still human. You're going to want to connect with those people. And now I feel like I'm off on a tangent and I'm missing some of what you're asking me, but feel free to bring me back.

No, this is great. It's great. I'm watching the comments come in here. Let's see here. So Kevin, it's great to see you, Annie. Former guest of the show. It's great to see you, Bill, Ricardo, and JC from Memphis. I love it. Hey, Christina, what's up? Girl, Alex. Christina comes in here and goes, communication is so nuanced. I'm glad you're taken to these in consideration. This is going back to what Elaine was saying just about follow up. Erica, it's great to see you. Philip comes in here. When you have a positive rejection process with the company, what is the best place to provide a review for other potential candidates?

Glass door. I mean Google, I think Google, I still go to Google reviews. I think Glass door is like web UX is very clunky and bulky and I never like to go on it because it pushes you like 15 like pop ups to sign up. So I just like Google. Well, I think there's a bunch of places you can go blind. I seem to go in there every now and then just to see what's happening. When you're going to see a positive comment bum line instead of just all the rough stuff. Yeah, exactly. I like that. Malina, it's good to see you bear it and Annie.

So don't forget lawyers and car sales people when it comes to recruiters and cyclists and crossfitters and crossfitters. Malina goes, I'm going to make sure to say it costs nothing to be nice to recruiters. I will buy it and I will wear it on the show. Malina, if you do that, I'm an extra large. I will wear it and I will buy it. I will wear it on the show. Carla comes in and goes, what happens when you're in a field in a position you know be obsolete in the near future. I need a little bit more context on this and kind of what you're referring to, Carlos.

If you want to throw up a little bit more context, I will get to that because I'm not quite following unless Elaine, that you, maybe you're following. Well, that's a tough one, right? That's not, I mean, it's a recruiter problem in the sense that if that were to happen, you have to live and work through it. But that's very much a business issue, right? Why are you spending money to fill a role to pay my salary and someone else's for a short period of time if you know that role is becoming obsolete? Can I say a question whether or not you wanna work for that company?

Cause I would. Yeah, exactly. So what, so let me ask you this. So here's, so I wanna ask you this cause this is my misconception of agency versus corporate. Agency, all we do is meet people, right? I mean, pretty much, right? That's our goal. What is y'all's cadence like for me, just pure meeting people day and day out versus all the other stuff? Cause like we do have other stuff, right? We have to submit people for jobs. We have to notate it into our CRM. Like we have admin stuff, but for the most part, agency's job is just to get out there and meet a crap ton of people.

How much of your 40 hour or work week is just DMing and trying to meet people? It will vary, right? Okay. Okay. So one of the things that is pretty unique about the way I was working here at Shopify is we were in a centralized recruitment model. Okay. So the thing with that means is, let's say I've got 100 wrecks and we've got a team of 15 people working on it. Everybody works around Robin. So someone may land an initial call from that initial call. If we move them forward, they go through a system that finds someone who's available for the next call, so on and so forth, all the way through the process.

So you're getting calendar invites dropping in. But, you know, on top of those calls, we're definitely taking notes during or after each one of those calls. We're making a decision as to whether or not someone should move forward. What else is there? It's just that alone. We'll take about a big majority of your day, right? So never more. Yeah. Would you say half of your week is pure just DMing folks? At least. At least. Okay. Yeah. Even there were days where I literally run out of time to do the things that I need to do. I've had either too many interviews that day or I'm backed up from the day before I didn't get to put all of my notes into the ETS so it gets tricky.

Yeah. Because my initial, this is the hot take here. My initial hot take was like corporate recruiters don't meet people. They're just like, hang out off for letters and doing bullshit HR tasks. like it sounds like that obviously you are out there as well a pound in the pavement. So I do apologize to all corporate recruiters out there for upsetting you. We're doing the same work. Really, we are. The difference is I found one company that I'm super aligned with from a value is from a mission standpoint. And I'm sticking on working with these folks specifically. And in my case today, I'm specialized in finding data scientist, which I think is a really cool job.

I think it's super interesting. So you're essentially doing the same thing, right? You're finding great people, but for a multitude of employers. So I think in some sense, it's even more challenging for you, because you've got to learn that client's business. You've got to understand what the value prop is. You've got to know what their mission is, whether their values are, you know, what does the hiring manager want? And you're doing this for every single client that you're working with. And that's no easy feat. Yeah. So I want to shoot. I totally forgot what I was going to say. And it was a great question.

I had it teed up my brain. Gosh, that gummy. All right, we'll get back to it. So the next thing I was going to talk about is how, so candidates, job seekers, who are watching this now in the future, how can individuals stand out to you? Obviously, I have my thoughts. What do you like to see right now? You need to find the right person. What do you mean? So if you're going, if you're one of those enterprise and folks who is going to want to send messages to someone who's working at the company that you want to work at, you have to find the right person.

So I got an email just the other day that says, hey, says you're open to helping, which under my little photo bubble on the bin is, you know, Alicia Novellian's brainchild, which kudos to him, love to see him on here. Alicia and I are boys, I love Alicia. I love, I love that the connection there. I love that. Yeah, absolutely. And they, it was a nice message, but they said, you know, I'm a software engineer. What do you look for in software engineers? So right off of that, I mean, it says in my profile, I'm a recruiter specifically for data science. That's the only discipline I've recruited for at Shopify.

I don't know what we look for in software engineers. I mean, I can talk about alignment to mission and values and that kind of stuff. But if we're talking skill sets and what the hiring teams over there are looking for, I don't know. And that's the message that I sent back was, I'm not sure, but is there anything else I can help you with? Like I can do resume help for sure. I can look at you in profile and be like, this is what we need to fix. But finding the right person gets you to the right place that much sooner. Because if you, you know, we were talking about being super busy before, some people may get turned off by getting those messages that aren't going to the right person be like, you know what, you didn't take the time to find the right person to chat with.

I don't have time to explain it to you and just leave it there. So finding the right individual does definitely help. And then a really pinpointed message too, is I want to be a data scientist out. Here's what I have in my background that I think is super relevant for Shopify. What are my chances or how does that line up with what you guys look for? That helps, because now I don't have to go review your profile. If you've sent me your resume, look at your resume. But if you've interested me in that, you've sunk that hook with your message. Now I may want to do those things and continue that conversation.

I love that. I love that. What else? So first off, Job Seeker's message, take a time to look at someone's profile before messaging them. If they say they're data science or career, it may not be the best to ask about software stuff. What else do you like to see from candidates and job seekers right now? Yeah, I mean, it's gotta be effort. Right, I wanna see that you're trying. And not just like the minimum of trying of sending a message, but really reaching out to connect. But tell me something about yourself. I have a little line in my summary statement that says something about the lines of, if you wanna connect, ask me how my fiddle lessons are going.

And it's one of those cheeky little things, but if you write means, and I had someone actually write me and say, hey, I'm taking guitar lessons, I wonder how your fiddle lessons are going, maybe we could jam together. Like what a fun way to connect with somebody. And all they did was literally meeting my entire summary statement, right? Yeah, I love that. I love that. So I wanna kind of go to, obviously as we enter into the last few years you mentioned the show and again, time flies when you're having fun with friends. I like to say, what, what are you know, I know people are kind of, uh, listen, nervous right now, right?

Market kind of sucks. Just it is. It's called what it is. Um, what do you see on your end? Um, you know, I have, you know, what, what are your thoughts are again, there's no wrong answers. There's no right answers because it's just two recruiters pontificating of the market. What, what are your thoughts on the market right now? What do you think people should be mindful of and really where do you see it going over the next few months? Yeah, I think feeling afraid and worried, wondering about your job security is completely fair in this market and who hasn't. If you take a look at the fact that most of the layoffs that have happened, it's always TA that goes first for sales to go first.

Literally, one of my buddies who left my team a year ago to go internal just got laid off. And it's scary for everybody across the industry. The market right now, they're still people hiring. It's not a fine, those people, you've got to be intentional in how you reach out. You've got to craft a resume that always addresses the job description that you're applying to. Otherwise, you're just throwing a paper, virtual or not. And it's one of those things, I think any times the market gets scared, what do we do? We turn to hiring more senior folks first. Yeah. So that's kind of what I've known, right?

Even for us here today to sign the markets tough. So we have to look very specifically at folks who are going to help our merchants, whether they're storm, so we're looking for senior folks. So I'm guessing that it's probably the same across the industry as a bias towards more senior folks. However, if you can find startups that are growing and are scaling rapidly, there may be an appetite there for folks who are not seekers to be able to come in. But again, you've got to prove what you bring to the table to help them get to that next time. Yeah. Yeah, and I think the only thing I'm big on, which is why I have guidance counselor 2.0, which is actually my recruiting team at VACO, we started the Discord channel of where we just post our jobs.

It's all we do. just to have another place to get involved with. Because there's a lot of opportunity out there, but you gotta know where to find it, right? And like that's my thing, like creating a discord, getting people kind of in my network is showing like, hey listen, things are still happening. It's okay, right? I do this live show to again, have guests on and be like, hey, it's okay, everything's going great. And I think for job seekers, I think you have to go out and going back to Elaine, what Elaine said, about being intentional, You have to go out and find those places, right?

The amount of Discord channels are crazy. The amount of Slack channels are crazy. I mean, even right now, I'm a part of six Slack channels and three Discords. I ain't got time for all of them, but I will tell you this. I will tell you this, if you find those places and you get networked in, you're gonna have more success than not. That's just how it is. And it's engagement too, right, Taylor? More so than just lurking. I mean, I'm in a lot of those Slack groups as well, those communities, mostly for my craft, which is recruiting in HR. But give back, if you've got questions, ask those questions.

Have people notice you? If you've got a take that's a little bit different than someone else, share it. Yeah. It's one of those things that it's scary at first, and then the more you do it, you'll realize, oh yeah, people aren't going to jump down my throat because I share a view that's completely different than nurse. But that engagement piece that's starting that conversation goes a long way. Absolutely. Sorry, I was swallowing my coffee. So, all right, the last question or second last question I want to ask, we talked to job seekers, we've talked to recruiters, let's talk hiring managers real quick, right? We all have tips for hiring managers.

This can be directed at Shopify or not. What is maybe your biggest tip or two for hiring managers right now in this market? know what you want, right? But it doesn't need to be written in a stone tablet. Sure. I think having an openness of mind, some flexibility about who's coming through those doors, the application doors, if you will, I think that's the best way to go. Because you never know who you're going to find someone who's a career changer, someone who's in a similar discipline that brings a great take that may help you solve problems in a different way. So know who you want, but also having an openness for hearing about what else is out there.

I love that. I love that. All right, last question, man, as we wrap up today, and again, thank you so much for coming on. And for those of you who are having tuned in, I see the comments coming in. Go connect with everybody on the comments. Go connect with Elaine, because he's a great resource. I love him. I think it'll be a great resource for you. So last question, sweet. Guidance counselors, and middle school and high school, and I guess college, but now more than ever, we need them, right? They're called therapists now, which I'm a big fan of, but we don't only have guidance counselors.

Like somebody you can go and just ask for advice about what you should do, where you should go. What's your biggest piece of career advice to your younger self? Yeah, don't be afraid of making mistakes. You know, I'm gonna go up there and say this, Even to this day, there are times where I block myself because I'm worried about how my peers will see me or how we lead will see me. And I can't believe I'm sharing this here. But there it is. That whole belief in yourself, take chances, put yourself out there, which is what I'm doing today, putting myself out there. I love it.

We agree with my views, but if not, we can still be friends. But I think that's the big thing, right? Don't be afraid to fail. Learn, pick yourself up, take a different approach, but that feedback piece, right? If we go full circle on this thing, Taylor, be open to feedback, take it. Use it and grow. I listen, listen, listen. I will tell you what, as we wrap up here, without marriage, partner, even being single in the workplace. What I am realizing is being able to take criticism and not get defensive is a skill that if you can master, you will be incredibly successful in whatever endeavor that you get into.

I will take that much right now. So go out there, be fearless, be kind, be empathetic, you'll be fine. All right, y'all, well, thank you again so much for hanging out with us today. Elaine, stay on real quick. I can say bye to you off air. Hope you all enjoyed this today. Please go connect with Lane. He was fantastic. Hopefully you all enjoyed today. Listen tomorrow morning, last show of the week because I am back to Cincinnati on Wednesday. I have my friend, Ray. He was Ray. Yeah, Ray Morrison. Ray was already on the show a few weeks back. He was fantastic. We're gonna have a follow up episode there.

So you all want to miss it and then I'm off for the rest of the week. So y'all have a great, a good one. Elaine, thank you. And we'll see y'all tomorrow. Bye. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode, and I am very grateful. Cause you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes, and I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others. And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it.

Please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, tailor at vaco.com or at T.S. and on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.