obstacles in the job search w/jacob herrington a sr. engineer

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. So that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco.com is how to get in touch with me old fashioned email social media at t s and t d e s s e y n. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. Let me run them out. Jacob is good to people what they want. Who are you? What do you do? We'll go from there. Yeah, I'm a software engineer. I've had the senior title for a couple of years, so that means that I do some people stuff too.

I've worked a number of startups now. I've yet to really succeed at a startup. I've worked at some doozies. I've learned a lot. The crazy thing about startups is as you get into them, it's like a whole other skill set. That's something that I feel really comfortable in now. So like, I tend to pitch myself as like, I'm a Ruby on Rails engineer from a startup. Like that's me. If you know anybody like that, you probably know somebody kind of like me. I know we're not going down this route yet, but I'm not. Yeah, we can talk about whatever. I don't want to ask, right?

Real quick, Dr. T, it's great to see you also too. If you have not checked out Dr. T's LinkedIn, she does a morning show on Fridays, check her out, she's fantastic. And then that's crazy. So John Michael, I'm glad you're still watching. Such small world. All right. What do you mean a startup has a different skill set? Because I think there's a lot of people on the show. I think startups are attractive, right? Stock, growth, potentially probably more cash because they got to lure people because it's high risk. Why would you say it's a different skill set? So I'll preface this with what I always preface like anything about my career with, which is that I look like a nerd, right?

I look like a software engineer. You and I go with like heavy nerds. Like yeah, if I walk into a room and you're like, hey, which person here like Star Wars a lot growing up? Like I'm in the running, like just by default, which makes me like I look like what people think of when they think of a software engineer, right? So I'll preface with that. And I'll preface also with like I'm a college dropout through and through a public education system. Parents don't have college degrees. Like they did really well for themselves. I was raised middle class, but I'm not institutionally supported very much.

So my way into tech was through startups largely. I did start my like, getting paid for computers. I kind of started doing it in high school, but I had an internship at JB Hunt, which is a Fortune 500 company. I learned a lot about how to run a company like that, and how to work at a company like that for almost two years. And then after that, I never touched a company that size again. So it's not that I actually didn't enjoy that time. I actually thought it was a pretty cool place to work, and I met some really cool people, but I found out that what I was good at was valued a lot startups which is being kind of up for anything and being like ready to learn and like that's what I I think right I don't really know why I get paid what I get paid but I think I get paid for what I get paid because I'm good at like moving the needle which is not rare in engineers but there's a different sort of engineer that is concerned with like the real world ramifications of what they're building and the sort that's more concerned with like the computer science like the intellectual curiosity side.

And I have both the sides as an engineer, but like inside of startups, that's that kind of real world approach to engineering has a lot more value because you can say, hey, that takes me 20 seconds to build honestly. Like we already built half this, the little feature you dog you'd nast me for and it saves you 30 hours a week. Like that doesn't matter that much at a giant corporation, but it can change a startup if I unlock 30 hours a week for someone or 10 hours or five hours a week for someone just automating something. So that's my motivation. It's the impact I can have.

How can someone get better at that? So if they're watching this show now in the future, they're like, wow, sounds great, Jacob. I want to be like that. How do you get that way? I have advice that I hate giving for this, which is that, and actually it's not advice. It's not advice. It's what I did. So I had a couple of high-paying jobs and startups. I know how to get them. I'm comfortable with that now. Like I said, I'm a senior software engineer, but if you pay attention to anything on LinkedIn, right, it's pretty easy to get a job as a senior software engineer.

Yeah. But at the same time, getting started is very hard as a software engineer, especially when without a degree or without like institutional backing, like, and I'm completely self-taught, no bootcamp or anything. Wow. And the way that you get in there, honestly, in my experience, people I've seen do it and the people that are like me that I've met took really bad jobs at first. And they worked really hard. I had like six internships and some of them I don't really talk about because they were stupid. Like I had internships at one point I was working like two or three internships at once because I was just trying to get to prove that like I can do this thing and learn because I didn't know what I didn't know yet.

And that's the only thing I can say has worked because it's the only thing I've done which is to have some crappy jobs, work really hard, move on and do it and make your best out of those crappy jobs. I have worked at, I haven't worked at a bad company since I worked at those internships, in my opinion. They've just been challenging jobs. So you think actually the challenge of working in shitty jobs has made you kind of more aware of the impact that you have. Yeah, and that was specifically, I'm like I said I'm talking about these, like a lot of these internships and weird things I did.

So this is probably advice for people who have just dropped out of college, because again that's what I did. I can't tell you what to do if you're 10 years into a corporate career and one of the startups, I don't know. But if you're someone who, you know, has my path similar to mine, I, like I said, I kind of just went to, I literally went down my LinkedIn. I found everybody who had C in front of their job title within 25 or 50 miles of me. And I asked them to get coffee and a number of those people. And I got, I got really good at going and really good.

I was like, like 19 probably. And I was just going through LinkedIn. If you're a CXO, CEO, CPO, CTO, C-whatever, at a company that had less than 1,000 employees, and I can drive to you. I'm going to send you a message and say, hey, man, can we get coffee or hate whoever? Can we get coffee? You did that. I did do that. I would say I have a 90% rejection rate. And one of my favorite things ever is this guy who has built a couple of, or he raised a lot of venture capital here, wants me to build a couple of companies here, wants me to really well known as a startup CEO here.

I messaged him back then. And he didn't ghost me, but it fell through. And then two years later, like he's the guy, he's the CEO of the company that promoted me to senior. So like I got my job by doing that again to him. It's funny in our LinkedIn message history. It's like he kind of ghosted me a little bit. He was a super rude, we just, he wouldn't have time for this kid. And then the second time, it was like he hired me doing the same thing. So that's how I got those jobs. But those, some of those weren't great. Like I worked for some people that were in startups that like they were there to make money.

They didn't really care a lot about humans or like, you know, some horror stories like where this one founder exits with 20 X million dollars and nobody else gets a cent. Like, stuff like that. I've worked with some of those companies and, like I said, I can't tell people to do that because I don't know that it was worth it. But I also know that that is how I got into this industry and now I'm someone who didn't have access to high-paying jobs because of my background at night do. do. And like, that's powerful. So I do have to be honest about that and say, like, yeah, I kind of struggled for a while.

And then I got a full time job at a company called Collective Bios that I probably shouldn't have gotten and didn't really know how to do. I was just post acquisition and that company needed people. I mean, some people helped me grow there. And then I went to another company where I grew a lot and I got to involve an open source and I like, yeah, really became an engineer there. And from that, like I have just had a crazy amount of opportunities. And that comes, I think from that early hustling of like I just need to get in the room and prove that I'm willing to work hard.

I mean I don't want to I don't want us to gloss over the fact that Jacob's over here starting his career messaging every single C-suite that's drivable distance. I mean I'd like that's that's the type of hunter mentality you have. It's kind of dumb though there's like there's a there you have to there's the caveat I hate giving this advice with the caveat of like this is not good advice like this is just what it is. I don't know. Here's deal here's deal here's deal I think I think it's great advice. You know why? I'm going to New York tomorrow for my wife and I was a six year-weight in the anniversary.

And one of my favorite creators is up there. His name's Tim Chininsky or something like that. I don't know if you've seen him on TikTok. But he does, all he does is stay in the life. That's all he does. He doesn't do anything else. He doesn't do trends. He doesn't even do trending like sounds. All he does, he does the same jazz thing. And he's gained like seven or seven. And I just shot my shot in the comments. I said, hey, I'm gonna be staying in Brooklyn. He lives in Brooklyn. I was like, I love to buy you dinner. Now he hasn't, he hasn't, he probably didn't see it.

And that's okay. Yeah, kind of just got a shoe shot. Well, I heard, and this is like, again, when I was 19, I was reading like Zig Ziglar books and like all the business books of like all the motivational sales books and all the stuff, like trying to figure out what to do with my life. And I heard this kind of idea that now is becoming a little more common, I think, well, like maybe it's less mainstream and just better now. Maybe it was more mainstream than them, I don't know. but reading these old success books and hearing this idea of like in sales, especially of not saying no to yourselves, that's becoming like really big in I think career advice circles right now.

And I really agree with it. Like in this job, I just had where I got a really good job that I'm really excited to do and start. Yeah, you went live when you got the job. Well, yeah, last time. So this time, I actually have a new job, but I was saying that like I applied to some places when I went to this new job, which we can talk about that too. But when I went to this new job, I applied to some companies I didn't really want to work at. And I was just like, wouldn't it be kind of neat if I got that job?

Or like, I'm not that perfect. I'm not going to do that. I played a senior program manager position at Roblox and Microsoft. And I have no qualifications for that. But maybe there's somebody in a team somewhere that somehow related to this job. And that's fine for me to do as a job seeker, because that's what you have to do. Like you put yourself out there. At the same time, like I also had this category of these like safe jobs that I know, I know I can get these, I know I can't be strong for these, I know I will, and I went for those too.

I mean, one of those safe jobs, which is an area of expertise, and I'm really excited to like be an expert at this company, but at the same time, in the same job hunt applied for jobs that had nothing to do with what I've done in the past. Just to see what opportunities, because some, I mean, you're a creator, you're on the other end of this, I've been in conversations where I just like talking to a recruiter who's got a vague proposal that I You know, they're not gonna tell me the company they're hiring for they're not gonna give me information I'll just say okay I would like to make and then put a number in and just see what happens and gauge the response because this recruiters not being super honest with me So like I'm just gonna say fine If you're gonna ask ask me to come work at a job that I know is probably not great because you're not telling me everything That I'm gonna start off with an unrealistic ask and I can gauge your response That's a data point for me as a job seeker.

I do that kind of stuff all the time I know exactly what software engineers with my level experience go for in the market because I know when recruiters stop laughing on phone calls Like I know what number I say with a recruiter doesn't go That's when I know that's the market rate like I just keep coming down I'll start it. Let's start at 300 and keep coming down and see see where you stop making fun of it again Right give you props. You're leveraging recruiters to learn something about the market Which is why I thought about it. That's why this is cool, you know? Yeah, I mean I again I think so many people look at recruits as transactions and I get it because our industry does that right Totally, but I think like I think you should be as much as you Google top five tips on how to write a resume No, no, no ask a recruiter.

Yeah You just go to your website, right? Yeah, your website has a template like that Exactly, but you can you can even if you don't want to be someone who cold calls people like there's no So I just, as an engineer, there's just so much hatred towards recruiters, right? Like, there's so much. People are like, don't even, we don't message me. And I get it. Like, I got a phone call the other day on my personal cell phone. I was like, why are you calling me? Like, I'm not even like open to work right now. But at the same time, a lot of people don't get people knocking on their door offering them really good opportunities.

That's not common. Like, it's a cool thing about this industry. it can be a nuisance, but it doesn't mean you need to be angry at the people who are abusing the system, because it's kind of a cool, it's kind of a perk in a weird way. And at the same time, you don't want to network, you can follow people who are doing this like you or like other recruiters that are saying, hey, here's what we do so that you understand. And then when you go looking for a job, you don't have to just apply to a website, you reach out to people that you know have connections.

All right, a few comments have come in here. Yeah, Jenny comes in earlier as a former shoe string business owner, my two cents, trying to keep up a small slash micro business afloat is great training period. Yeah, I mean, 100%. I think I've grown over the last two years because I've tried to scale team from zero from nothing to something. And I've learned a whole hell of a lot last two years. So that's been huge. Ram is good to see you, Emmet. I mean, Bennett, the worst that happens is they ignore you. Yeah, I mean, Exactly, it just, yeah, you're back to square one. Quick resume question, I love that Emma's taking advantage of this and then we'll go into kind of what we were actually supposed to talk about for the last little bit.

Do I put time frame on my rolls with a short stints? Yes, if you can speak to why they were short stints. There's nothing wrong with having short stints on your resume, right? I mean, Emmett, I know if it's one of the gigs that I think, right? I mean, it'll just call what it is with Govala with Kelly, like they were a startup. They didn't have a lot of funding. You had to be laid off. It was only a three month gig. Like it's not a big deal, right? Like just put down your resume. It shows you were employed. It shows someone took a chance on you from an engineering perspective.

It shows that you were at a company were able to deploy stuff in three months. So yeah, 100%. And also like what we were talking about earlier from like working at a startup. I've been, I've been hiring calls before at startups. Like if you look at someone's resume and like they did something, That's, and it was a startup like I know, like I've worked at startups. Right. I've seen that happen. Yeah. Like I'm not mad at you for, for having worked somewhere for, for 60 days. Did you deliver something valuable with that startup? Well, like the best engineers I know, literally the best engineers I know are contractors who worked for companies for 60 days and, and they help startups go to market and those are the best engineers I know.

So that's not, that's a really, really strong thing you can talk about. Yeah. In my opinion, it's, you contributed something at a startup and that's hard. Yeah. I'm Brian comes in and I'm staying in touch with recruiters that I met a few months ago, I don't want to network just when I need something that I mean, that's literally that. I mean, that's that's it. We can we can end the show on that. Cause that's, that's it. All right. Let's talk about the, actually what you're about to talk about for the last 10 minutes for my daughter gets cranky. She's, she's enjoying classic Christmas cartoons right now, but you were on the job search recently, talk about the obstacles and how you dealt with kind of these roadblocks.

Yeah, totally. The reason I reached out to you in the first place, I was finishing a job search and I had all these companies. I love my life. Thank you for. Yeah, no, I'm all about sharing my knowledge and my experiences. You know, I have had a couple of job searches really frequently, really back to back in the last year or so because I tried stuff that I wasn't comfortable with and like it wasn't wasn't for me. So I'm going back from them comfortable with and that's a part of learning to build a career I think. And I think inside of those job searches, I learned so much about again, like market value for myself, things like that.

But in those interviews, in those processes, a lot of companies, even at this point where we're like kind of struggling to fill some jobs, I mean, there's some layoffs, people have ideas about what the market's going to look like. But still, the asks people were making of me and some of these interviews were so extreme that I was just like, I don't want to work for your company, bad energy. Can you think of like an extreme case or two? Just like, I would say on average, for what I was applying for in like senior Ruby on Rails engineering roles, I was seeing like, like maybe what these companies don't call interviews, but they are like a phone screen.

The company's not gonna call it an interview, but I have to be honest, a job seeker. You could choose not to hire me based on something I say on this call. So it's an interview. So these companies were expecting about eight or nine interviews in reality, counting their phone screens. If we count the phone screens, they want five. They want four interviews. And each one's an hour long and some are technical and some have take homes. So it's just like, all right, I'm actually a consultant right now. I actually bill my rate that I'm very comfortable building is like 100 to 120 an hour. Like I don't want to spend six hours doing a take home project for you.

No, you know? And like some of these companies just, I'm a very honest person, like I'm being right now, you know? So I was on these call with these recruiters and I would just say, hey, here's a link to 500 PRs I have made on GitHub that are tagged with the Ruby programming language. Can I not do your Ruby take home? I have 500 pull requests in the open and that implies that I have a lot more that are not in the open, right? I mean, yeah. And the answer's largely no from the open. Really? And that's why I'm looking at it. I don't want to work for you.

Listen, I am a recruiter, but to me, that just seems asinine, especially somebody like you that is so organized, so document, I don't know some of the things you just said, but I don't know. It's very organized. This is a matter. And as a, hey, a few more minutes, my daughter's done. A few more minutes, all right, I'm talking, we'll do this a second. So basically, it's just ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous. Yeah, and that's thing that for me is just like, it just seems like bad business sense at this point. Like as we're struggling to hire people, it's like maybe we should start structuring our jobs around, what if we made it bad hire?

Rather than trying to structure our process around, let's not make any bad hires. Exactly, that's it. That's the mindset switch that needs to happen in the tech, and we're really in the industry, but mainly tech, especially in engineering space. It's this whole thing of, the mentality needs to be, Hey, I'm interested in you. Let's have a good dialogue to see how you can fit an organization. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But I feel like so many people in the tech industry are, you need to prove to us why you should work here. And it's like, bro, which makes sense. But then for someone like me, like I had a process where I talked to the hiring manager, and I really respect this person.

And it's a big company. So I understand what level of power they have, but their title is head of something. So they have some power. And like, I kind of opened up and just said like, hey man, I didn't go to college for computer science. If you give me a test to see if I can take, you know, what I know is my interns homework from several jobs ago. Like it's a, it's a homework from a data structures from a DSA class, like DSA two or whatever. If you give me a question from that class, I've already told you, I didn't take it. Like, so do you want to hire me as an engineer who's gonna move your business forward?

Or do you want to have someone who has the best computer science education? And like, you can't, and one side, all the recruiters, all the hiring managers are saying, we want someone who will move the business forward. But all of the processes say, we want the person who went to a four year state school, didn't actually learn much more than exactly what they were taught and won't make me look bad for having hired. And in reality, that's a really good recipe for hiring a lot of people who don't move the needle forward. So it's kind of a complicated nuance thing where it's like, even if you're a Machiavellian business executives, you know, even if you're Elon Musk and you're being kind of evil or really evil in that case, I think, but if you're being evil, right?

Even in that sense, if you're anti-social, you should be able to put together. Like, we don't want to hire people that don't pass our filter because when they don't pass our low filter, there's also people who are skipping on us because of our high filter. Like, a low filter is also a high filter. Like, there's a lot of people who don't, like me, where I can help, if you're a Ruby on Rails e-commerce company, I can do that in my sleep. So like, if if I'm applying there and I look at this and I know I'm qualified, I know I'm getting candidate, but you say, we need you to do a live coding thing.

And I've already said, I don't really like doing those because it made me really anxious. Then I can just say, never mind, like I know I'm valuable to your company. I know I'm valued by competition. They're both hiring. And that's that's so from an evil perspective, right? You, these processes need to change. Even if you don't care about that. from that perspective. Yes, from my thought leader. Yeah, thought leader. Yeah, thought leader. Yeah. And I think that's, and so you said something that I stress a lot to people on social media is, have confidence in what you bring to the table, but don't be a jerk.

And I think you said it great. It's like, listen, I know the value I can provide, right? And if you're going to sit here and you're not open and looking at my GitHub, which by the way, managers, I don't know why you don't do that. In the 10 years, 11 years I've been recruiting, I have never, never had a manager ask me for GitHub from somebody. Isn't that crazy? Why do we even have GitHub? What's the point? What's the point? The public facing social media part of GitHub, the whole purpose of that right now is to help recruiters and hiring managers. I actually don't like the feature because it makes people like, I got to have enough green dots instead of worrying about whether or not they're building things that help people.

But that's the point. So if you're a hiring manager or creator, like that's a useful tool. Yeah. And then James is here a few comments down here. Yeah, Emmett comes in here, how to process more to the hacker rank and then a 90 minute, like what? Yeah, and it's a, yeah, if it's a shortage of software engineers up there, then like that's why. Yeah. And then James, sadly those companies don't surprise me at all, usually take those a bozo filter. If they save, no, they're gonna waste my time better off. Yeah, I mean, again, right? And here's the deal. If you're a junior developer and you're watching this conversation on the future, you're like, well, I can't even look you for just the stupid jobs that I took, right?

Like I understand, but also too, if you catch the beginning part of this episode, Jacob talked about how he grinded, how he DM'd every C-sweetness area that he could drive to, offering to go to lunch. Like that's the grind and hustle you need. So I understand that we're sitting here talking, Jacob's more senior in his career, we're talking about him rejecting jobs and being at that place. And I get that, I think that's great. If you're not in that position, then you got to grind, right? you got to grind light, Jacob. Or just be slightly more clever than the system is like a really good thing.

You can learn from people who have done dumb things. I really think that some of the grind they did was not intelligent, right? I think that I made some calls. But I think that some of the grinding that I did was really smart because I picked the right lever to pull on. It's like we talked about creating content. Like I had a podcast, it's not a horribly, like I don't add a lot to that podcast. What I did was I went out and I found some people that really impressed me and I asked them questions that I was a little bit insecure about asking them.

like, hey, do you feel bad about yourself about your job? Do you have imposter syndrome? Like I asked every single person I interviewed that question. And what I learned was yes. Uh, and secondarily what I learned was that knowing these people is a lot more valuable than even the podcast that I made. I just made a lot of friends because I was trying to be authentic and actually make friends, not just use people. Um, and it turns out that's how you get really high paying jobs and how you get network, like that's what networking is like you talked about. Don't, don't just reach out to people that you need something from, just build some friends, you know, and, and at some point, if you're in that space, you're really passionate about it, your friends are in that space.

A mentor I once had to build a beer list, I think, not, not goals you have in your life, but people you would like to want to have a beer with you. So like, I, I want, you know, the creator of this web framework or whatever to want to have a beer with me. What do I need to do? Like, that's a much better approach and healthier than just trying to be like, I gotta get in the room, I gotta grind, which is what I did, and I don't always advise, but I I do know that it works for me, at least to get access to these jobs like we're talking about.

I just had a great podcast idea for anybody listening. I would listen to it every time. I think you ask one question, you call the podcast insecure and you ask the one, you ask every guest one question, what's your biggest insecurity? I would listen that shit like crazy. Hell, I may even do that. Anyways, all right, so as we wrap up here, the dollar is getting restless. Three questions that I'm ending every episode with, a little lightning rounds. Yeah. What technology trends tech thingy that you're really interested in fascinated with using a reading about right now? So this is a boring answer and that's why it's my answer.

I would say Ruby on Rails. You are seeing a huge shift away from JavaScript front. What's going on? I have so many Ruby jobs. Also, I'm mad he didn't hit me up, but I have so many Ruby jobs right now. Yeah. No, it's it's it's it's it's it's coming back because I think People are talking about market forces and all these things and like, you know, all those things are outside of the control of the everyday average engineer or recruiter or person. But adapting to those things makes sense. Businesses are going to do it. It's Ruby on Rails is a pragmatic framework and it has some ideas about how to be really productive again that are new.

The thing that excited people out of Rails in the beginning, I think is going to happen again, especially around JavaScript in the front end. So that's what I would say. I would say look at some of the boring stuff. Laravel too. Leravel, there's some stuff happening there. And of course, if you don't want to go to the old stuff, then go look at Rust. There's new stuff in Rust every single day. And it's probably worth learning. You probably get paid a lot. I love it. That's my answer to that. I love it. Second question. Favorite holiday movie. Oh, favorite holiday movie. Yeah, like, like, like if you're feeling holiday vibes and you're out of candle lit.

And I mean, I think it's crazy. Christmas story is like a lame answer, but it's the one in my house and I really like that. I turned on yesterday. I turned on yesterday. Yeah. Yeah. I would say die hard if I was trying to like be be that person, but I really think that's a great movie. It really is. But I think I think Christmas story is a better Christmas. It sounds about Christmas story. I don't know if it's like how grainy and way it's filmed and just how classic it was like I it's one of my favorites. My wife hates it. I love it.

Yeah. Totally. I get that take too because I've seen it so many times I get hating it. Sometimes in my life I have hated it, but I feel like I feel like It's hard to beat for just general Christmas vibe. I love it. I love it. Last question. I think I asked you this last time. Guidance Councilor 2.0, because we had Guidance Councilor Middle School, high school, college, et cetera. But now we don't really have them. What would be your biggest piece of advice for your younger self, career wise? Oh, it would be what you were talking about earlier. It's figure out your value. Go learn something that moves the needle and then know whether or not you really can do it.

And then understand the value of that thing. I undersold myself for a very long time. And I realized kind of overnight one time, oh, like, one of the ways I've put it before, because I kind of have some, I have kind of, I don't have a horribly high self opinion, you know, I've talked myself down a lot, right? It's a thing that I know about myself. One of the things that I used to say to myself when I would feel really bad is some idiot is getting paid more than me. Like, my brother and I have talked about that. Yeah, it's like some of these people who are, in some of these executive slots that I've met in my life, I'm like, man, I don't know what you're adding a whole lot here.

Nobody I met personally, but I have met people in interviews, honestly, that I've just been like, your background is kind of like Illuminati, and I'm not sure you're helping. And that kind of stuff, I mean, that guy gets paid a lot. Why not me, right? That's something I used to tell myself when I was really, really having trouble understanding my value was like, I mean, let's say my worst fears are true, and I'm terrible at everything, and like, I'm really not valuable. Okay, well, can I be a highly paid person with low value? Like that'd be nice, right? So yeah, that's what I would tell myself is, is go get what you're worth.

And then if you can try to internalize what you're worth. I love it. All right, y'all. Well, thanks again for hanging out with us today. Again, check out render ATL. If you want to go buy some coffee, check that out. Y'all have a great one. Go connect with Jacob. This is my last show for two weeks, because of the holidays. So go connect with Jacob. Siden my DMS if you need anything, Jacob, appreciate you buddy. Stay on as we wrap up so I can say bye. We all have a great one, take it easy. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful, cause you know why?

There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finish an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others and the only way that happens as if you take the time right now and rate and review it. Please, like, right now. Unless you're driving, then don't do it. So, thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, tailor at vaco.com or at T-dastin on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.