advocating for yourself w/ amy from hack your hr

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

What's going on podcast listeners? Thank you, thank you, thank you for tuning in to Guidance Counselor 2.0. The point of this podcast is to allow individuals a resource in their careers when they need it the most. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school, we had Guidance Counselors in high school, but yet now in the real world, we don't have anything or any resource to listen to, to turn to, to learn from others. And so that is what this podcast is for. I interview real people who have had real challenges in their career in hopes that you can take a little bit out of it and to apply within your own career.

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I hope you enjoy the episode. All righty. We're live, but nobody hears us yet because it takes literally a few minutes to get into the ecosystem. But so afternoon everybody, this is a it's a different live really excited to be here. I just caught up with Amy and we have a lot in common. And it was really, really cool. And I found Amy on TikTok. So again, I eat my own dog food, as they say, when it comes to networking and reaching out. I just, I cold email Amy. I said, Hey, Amy, listen, love your stuff. Any chance you want to hang out with me?

And here we are. So, Amy, thanks again for hanging with me. I appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks for creating content that I used before I saw you. Yeah. Yeah. For those of you, for those of you tuning in, And we, a funny story, basically the algorithm, the algorithm pushed, pushed Amy to me first. And that's when I shot her an email. And then basically the next morning after I sent the email, she stitched me. And then it was like, I was like, wait a minute, did you stitch me? You saw me? Or did you stitch me because of the email? She goes, no, no, no, you really just popped up on the page.

So I love it. But anyways, enough of me to run my mouth. So Amy, I want to do a quick intro. Obviously not getting the major specifics, but what do you do at a high level and how long you've been doing it for? Yeah. So as I say on TikTok, I don't share my last name, but my name's Amy and I lead HR to Global Company. And so what does that mean? I lead all of the nuts and bolts of HR. I lead the HR team and then I also support department leaders and our executive team on all things people related. So that looks differently depending on your industry, depending on where you are in the world, but we have offices in Asia and in Europe and we have a presence in a lot of other places but we're based in Los Angeles.

I love that, I love that. So, you know, so again, I don't like scripts. I never have. I'm really big on just kind of shooting the shit to be totally honest with you. And so we logged on literally. I've known Amy now for 12 minutes. And I said, hey, what do you want to talk about? And she said it so beautifully. And I'm really excited because I become more passionate about this. And the topic is advocating for yourself. And this is such an important topic that I've seen with people in their careers. But I mean, I mean, Amy, definitely kick it off. I mean, talk about why advocating for yourself is so important in today's day and age.

Yeah, so first and foremost, you are your best advocate because you have all of the facts. And as a manager, I have a team. And while I, so I can speak from personal experience, as much as I care about my team's growth and every individual that I really lead, It isn't top of mind all the time how I can be their advocate or what I can do for someone's career. But I like to think of myself as a the type of manager that really cares about her people and wants the best. But it does take that personal agency to advocate for yourself, to get on someone's radar.

And so I'm most passionate about people feeling equipped to advocate for themselves. And something that we talked about was think a lot of things that you want in life are on the other side of a hard conversation. So equipping people to have even just the words, like a word change on how you have a tough conversation with your boss or someone that you work with. Yeah, so I talk about all the time. So I say go be fearless. And it says like go for the ask, you know, be confident. You know, I, I, I say this all the time that my dating life in college and high school led me to be a good recruiter because I got told no a lot.

But the thing is, is like, so, so let's kind of dive in and talk about like some specifics on how people can equip themselves because, you know, listen, I'm in counseling, like, I'm a huge mental health, like counseling therapy guy, like I think everyone needs it. And so for me, like people are uncomfortable being uncomfortable. And I think that's pretty self-explanatory, but I mean, I feel like you gotta be that to go further, to go more far further than you are. So yeah, so if you wanna kind of give some keys to obviously having those uncomfortable conversations. Yeah, so the way I like to approach any kind of conversation, I just had a conversation today with someone who said, I'm doing so much more than what my job description says.

I haven't gotten an increase. I don't feel like I'm getting paid fairly. That was Amy. Amy, come back. Oh, no. Amy. We just lost Amy. We get her back. Can we get her back? Amy, come back. Where'd you go? Amy? There you are. There you are. We're back. OK, good. Sorry about that. all back over on that. Okay, sorry. I think that was my why bye. Okay, so as reason is today, I have conversations with people that feel like they're doing a lot more than what they're getting paid to do. So how do you advocate for yourself and say, I don't want to take on more.

And before I even take on more, I need to get paid for what I'm currently doing. And so I like to provide people language to to kind of represent what they're going through in a non-emotional way, right? We're so, and we should be, we can get so emotional around compensation and how I like to steer people in their jobs is to make it not, it personally affects you, it's not personal. What you get paid is not personal, it personally impacts you. So as I kind of coach people how to advocate for themselves, I talk about using what's reasonable and what's realistic. And this is for managers too.

If you're a manager and someone asks you, it might be a reasonable ask, but it might not be realistic. And so, equipping people with the language to frame up, hey, I just wanna acknowledge what's playing as day to me. This is reasonable, right? I'm doing, this is what I feel like I'm getting paid to do. This is everything else I've taken on. I'd like to have a conversation where you and I can align on the fact that I am doing reasonably more than what I'm getting paid to do. And while it might not be realistic to get paid more, I just want to get on the same page.

So really helping people to understand how they emotionally react and understand how that can kind of hinder them. God, there's so much on pack here. And also get we have a few people tuning in. It is in the mid afternoon, but it's going to see Chris and then Sean goes. She gone. Yeah, but she back now. So there we go. Um, so, uh, let's, let's talk about the emotional part, right? Cause I feel, listen, I'm a highly emotional person guy. Like literally if you, um, I'm a three, two on the Enneagram, I don't know, Amy, I don't know if you're an Enneagram family, three, two, um, my wife's a two, three, like literally if you read like our vibe, it's like y'all are a lot of fun to be around, but you wear each other out, right?

Like we're highly emotional people. I also love the Enneagram. I'm an eight, seven and you're an eight. I never do along with AIDS. Oh, really? Yeah. So I'm very pleasant. I'm an eight, seven. I feel like I could go into the three, two space, but I married a three, two. And my number one advice to people is to marry a three, two. And I say, best decision of my life was marrying a three, two. I love it. I love it. That's awesome. I'm on top of my wife, you said that. So basically, but the thing is, is emotional. This, right? And I'm in my entire life have been told I'm too emotional and especially when it comes things you care about because I think a lot of people really do care about the jobs.

And I think they for better for us maybe have a lot of identity wrapped up in their jobs. So sometimes it's really hard to figure out how to take that emotion out of it. What's your best approach to try to take emotion out of it especially if you're advocating for money, a title change or anything like that? Yeah. So I think something that I like to keep in the the back of my head going into any, like you said, being uncomfortable is uncomfortable. When I go into an uncomfortable conversation, I like to think nothing is personal. Everything is out of self protection. So if I go to my boss and ask for a raise and I get pushed back, that's not personal.

It might be my boss out of self protection thinking, I can't get her raised. That's not realistic. So now I need to put out this fire. So if you get a response or a reaction really, I call it like, if you have someone that emotionally reacts rather than thoughtfully responds. Who I like that. How do you deal with that? So just coming in with the mentality and expectation of if I get a response that doesn't sit well with me emotionally, it might not be personal. It might just be whoever I'm talking with protecting themselves and what might come out of this conversation. So I think as much as we can focus on regulating your emotions at work, I'm pretty convinced it's like the number one corporate skill that helps people get ahead in their jobs is sitting back and realizing, okay, my heart rate went up.

Why did it go up? Which takes reflection. I mean, I'm counseling right now to figure that out, right? Be mindful and to be aware of, you know, for me, my chest gets really tight when I get emotional and I get angry or whatever. And it's like knowing where you're at, being able to slow down. I almost talk about it in terms of like the Matrix, right? I've never really seen the full movie, but I get, you know, everybody's kind of like dodging bullets and things, right? The Matrix is my number one favorite. Number two. Number two favorite movie I've probably seen it. What's the matter?

Gladiator. That's fair. That's a song. That's all I know. I never watched I'm not a movie guy. And so I used to just sit through them. It's another problem in them. I can't these days. But when I was young, I I think I watched The Matrix over 50, probably over 60 times. Holy smokes, would you say you've watched The Gladiator 100 times? No, I don't think I've watched The Gladiator as much. Matrix you can put on the background. Gladiator is like, Watch it, watch it. Epic. Yeah. Right. Like you don't wanna wear that movie out. Yeah, exactly. And probably, I've made 15, 20 times. That's impressive.

That's quite a number for The Matrix. And I think like the way I view it is like trying to slow down, right? And I feel like a lot of times people go into these negotiations and they're, you know, you know, their bravado was way higher than it needs to be. And it's just over the top. And then what happens is your manager shuts down, right? Because then it's like they, all they hear is your emotion and they're not actually hearing the words come out of your mouth, which is difficult. I want, so you said one comment that I wanted, I want to drill in on a little bit.

And I think it's so good. And I can't remember exactly just now, but you basically were like, Hey, listen, like, what did you say? You said in the first time, basically, like, I understand that, like, do you basically, was like, I understand if you can't do it, I'm just trying to advocate for myself. Like, basically showing, like, hey, I'm just, I understand that this may not work out, but I'm trying to speak up. And I think that's huge because it could, because if you can go into a negotiated meeting and go, hey, listen, like, I know you probably can't do anything, but I'm just trying to advocate for myself, I just think that frames up the entire conversation completely differently.

I think it does too. And what? So it's reasonable versus realistic. Okay. Love that. So if I go to my boss, you just speaking quotes, Amy, you literally just speaking quotes. It's, uh, it's the TikTok trend. You know, what's your life in life? I am full of bits. All of it. Reasonable versus realistic. I love that. But that, that's a mental framework that I think someone might learn in therapy or someone might learn with an executive coach, which is effectively a large part of my job. But if you go, let's say I'm going to my boss and I say, hey, I know it's not realistic for the company at this time to provide raises.

Like maybe there's a hiring freeze or maybe you go through talent review and they say, our budget is a 2% increase and that's it. No questions asked. Hey, I know it's not realistic to ask for a raise, but I want to make a reasonable ask that you and I are on the same page around what's fair. So even if it isn't realistic for me to get a promotion or a raise, can we align on my reasonableness and the fairness of advocating for what's reasonable and fair, even if the outcome is an ideal. with you as a manager to get on the same page around what's reasonable and fair.

So it's almost like you just want to be validated in feeling underpaid. You want to be validated by your boss that you're doing more than your job descriptions. So even though it's not realistic for me to get a raise, could we align on a job description that's accurate to what I'm being held to count before so that next year in six months, in a few months, create a timeline. We can have another touch base loop in HR and have a conversation about what's realistic, even if it's down the road. I'm going to start this conversation. Yeah, and I love that. And I want to get a shout out to my brother.

My brother recently went through this too. And, you know, I had a chance to work with him on it where basically he was doing more work than what he was tasked to do. And I think that's, I mean, listen, if one thing I've learned from COVID is everybody's overworked, everybody took on more work because you're at home, you're you're not driving yada yada. But like, but like my brother had a had a very intentional conversation and I was very proud of him for doing it because it's uncomfortable and my brother is a lot less emotional than I am. I got all of his emotion. And you know, he was able to be there.

He said this meeting like listen, like I'm doing this, I'm doing X and he was very black and white about it. And they listened to him and they were like, well, you know, we can't get your raise right now, but we'll give you a bonus, right? Or or sum along those lines and it. But again, and I have to give my brother a shout out is because he didn't go in hyper-emotional. He just was very by the facts. Here's what I'm doing. Here's what my job was. And then also too, I'm interested to hear thoughts on this, right? Because this is a slippery slope, because my brother asked me, how do you negotiate and do you bring up outside offers?

Now, my brother did a very good job of saying, listen, not that he got an offer, but hey, I'm getting calls for these type of roles. And I want to give you all the first opportunity. Is that how you would probably frame that up? I'm kind of curious. Yeah, so I'll speak to from the company's perspective. Yeah, please. And then from the person asking. So from the company's perspective, let's say I work in tech and someone's getting an offer that pays higher in another industry. I as the company might think, okay, well, that's not the same industry. But the reality is you're gonna lose a person to a higher paying role, industry doesn't matter.

And what I've seen a lot in my career is people in power are so laser focused on, well, we work in this industry and we're competitive for this industry. And candidates are not loyal anymore to our particular industry or particular competitors, right? We're seeing a lot of people not go from Facebook to meta to Apple, right? They're branching out and so there's no longer this kind of exclusive bubble. So from the employer side, I think it's really helpful to know it doesn't really matter what industry it is. People are leaving for higher pay. So it doesn't like throw out the old playbook. The point is people are getting messages on LinkedIn for higher pay.

So what are we gonna do about it? I mean, I have engineers saying they get five to 10 DMs a day. A day. Yeah, yeah. So something that I have personally done is I have personally advocated for myself in saying, hey, I open up LinkedIn and I have messages with job opportunities and the ranges are 20 to 35% higher than what I'm getting paid now. I'm not in a position to where I want to pursue that. I really like working here for reasons one, two, and three. But I do want to start the conversation of, you you know, I am motivated by pay. What's the path forward for me making as much as I can, considering what I am responsible for?

So I think too, a lot of people say, well, you know, market data and market research, maybe you would agree as a recruiter, that kind of goes over my head. Yeah. You pay thousands of dollars to have national database access where we can not see the market data, we can see the apparel systems and people reporting out exactly what people get paid per level. So it's so interesting. This is why I love podcasting and catching up with amazing people like you. I caught up, I don't know if Daniel from HR has popped up on yours. And from HR. Yeah, Daniel based. So I interviewed Daniel on the show too.

And yeah, yeah, and he actually challenged me on this. And this is why I love speaking more with individuals on the HR side, right? because a lot of people ask me these things and listen, I am only one recruiter. I am one agency recruiter on top of that, right? Like I am just, I am elinovane, it's a piece of the pie, right? And so I always, I understand I have a way in a responsibility. And so I never want to over speak. And one of the things I told Dan from HR, I said, I said, you know, hear my thoughts around negotiation, like we talked about negotiation, I'm kind of going here too as well.

And it's like, you know, you need to talk about like market data and stuff. And I go, and I was like, whoa, I was like, really? And he goes, yeah, he was like, and here's why that he said the same thing. Y'all get market data, you're aware of it. He talked about tying in parts of your career and how it relates to the job and what they're missing. Like the gap, like if they have a gap of these technologies or a gap in leadership or a gap of these skill sets, and you have them to bring that back to negotiate. And then he also talked about how if you're missing out on a bonus at the end of year or you're missing out on options or whatever to also educate HR on that as well.

So I'm going to just hear your thoughts. Yeah, I think something so I work in California and there is a pay equity law, right? If I have two managers, they have to be within a reasonable range of each other if they have similar responsibilities. They don't the state doesn't say what that range needs to be. So I work for a company, we make sure that there's within 5% pay equity. The problem with that kind of regulation is, let's say you've been in marketing for 20 years and I roll in with the same title and I only have seven years, how does it make sense that someone with 20 years with all of the experience walking through all the different headwinds, I'm paying that person more as insurance, right?

I know that they've walked through and they've done well, I can look at all their performance reviews, I'm going to pay them a lot. And this person with seven years may have gone through a few headwinds, but I know for a fact that I'm going to get, you know, the type of response I might need based on whatever comes my way as a CEO, as an HR department, through that person, how can I equip the seven year person and the 20 year person with advice for both of them to advocate for themselves? It's going to be different. But I think what's the same, like the three line for anyone negotiating for themselves is understand your impact, which sounds like generic advice, but truly understand the impact you make for the company.

Seriously. And how much it would cost them if you left. And so instead of market data, I think it's really leading with candor with your boss. And what is that? I love that word candor. What does that mean to you? Okay. So I read the book Radical Candor by Kim Scott and devoured the book. It kind of really helps me frame up my leadership ethos and how I want to show up. I think being candid is talking to someone the way that you would talk to your best friend about the situation in a respectful way. I don't think it's in a professional way because I think that if I say professional, it signals that there's a lane that you have to stay in and it, yeah.

And so I think respectful is a really good word to frame up how you talk in a workplace. So if I feel underpaid and you're my boss, I might lead with candor by saying, I'm not going to say honestly, I'm going to say, hey, I want to be really candid. I just want to like plain speak. I'm frustrated with what I'm getting paid. I understand that I was paid at market two years ago, but I've taken on X, Y, and Z. And so I want to just open up a conversation and ask for your honest and candid thoughts, really just cut the bullshit. What are we actually talking about in a respectful way?

I personally like to add in some swearing, even as a leader of HR, because that's how a lot of best friends talk, right? So let's talk, oh gosh, how long do we have? I could talk to you for hours. So I had an episode last year, I had two live shows with two engineering managers about the power of basically communication and sometimes even nonverbal communication in terms of like emojis, like communicating virtually, right? And like, like sometimes people don't realize that like you may type of sentence in Slack and you may sound like a dick, but you really aren't, but you don't put emojis or exclamation marks or LOL.

So we act, that was the whole episode about LOLs and emotional stuff. But I think you make a really good point. That's one of the reasons why I swear too, because, um, the reason why I swear is because I think the staffing industry is very stiff and hold and not emotional. And so I try to, I try to, you know, change that at some, I sometimes maybe go a little overboard. But all that being said, I think it make a very valid point. I think the more real and open and vulnerable and just you that you can be in these conversations, the more effective they're going to be.

Yeah. Yep. I totally agree. I mean, I have, I have, I have really seen in the leaders that I revere and respect and admire in how in how they lead, leading from a place of, let's get rid of all of the language and let's just talk about what we wanna talk about. Hey, I don't feel like I'm getting paid as much maybe, and then you give the caveats. Maybe it's because I'm getting messages on LinkedIn that I don't wanna respond to, but I'm seeing that I could get paid 20% more and I know we have hybrid and that might not be, like calling out, and this is kind of sales strategy.

If you wanna negotiate, well, you know, take a class on, take a master class on how to be good at sales. But it really is leading with being human. And people say lead with vulnerability, lead with empathy. But if you look at what being vulnerable really means, it's sharing from a place of like you trust a person to accept what you're sharing that might hurt you, right? If I like you, you just shared with me that you're in therapy. Yes. That I would say you're being open, not vulnerable, because if I, because you are safe enough with yourself to say that you're therapy, where someone else might be so scared to admit that they are talking through their life with someone, they might be so afraid of judgment.

That might be something vulnerable to share, but it's so. It seems like at least that you are so comfortable in yourself in that decision, you can speak openly about it. Sure. So I think leading with candor is, is being rooted in my full identity is not my work. My full identity is not in what I produce or in my outcomes. Someone on my team last year made a mistake and it could have cost the company thousands of dollars and she was spinning and spinning and I just paused. I said, Hey, Tim, I just want you to know My heart rate didn't increase. I'm going to forget about this in two weeks.

Yeah. If you're coming in, you're naming the problem, you have a solution. We know why it happened and how it won't happen again. This doesn't impact how I'm going to view you. And so she came to me vulnerably and then I created safety for her. So that's but man managers, if you watch this, that like, that's another part. Yeah. I mean, even if that puts me over budget, right? I could have taken, like I get paid more as a team leader to carry the burden of the team. So if a team member messes up and that impacts what I'm held accountable for, I am paid more to carry that burden.

And it is unhealthy to orient yourself as a leader, to place the burden back on your team. Right? So I think leading with Candor 2 is is just being open but not like bucking the burden onto people that are just not paid to carry the burden. Even if they could. That's the thing you know that really is above what they're held responsible for. So I don't know if you were pushed the Simon Sinec video clip but the headwinds is an interesting term because I'm pretty sure it used the same term on TikTok. I learned that in my current job. Okay, so literally I'm telling you I just saw on TikTok the other day of Simon Seneck talking about headwinds and how People in a company are paid differently even though you think and this kind of goes into a whole another thing that maybe we can Chop it up together another time because I know we're running out of time here, but it's it you know I'll do the kind of the COVID I think I already started to emerge I started to see it in the software engineering space, but But COVID more is like you're starting to see two to three year developers becoming senior, right?

And three to four year developers, even staff. And here's the deal, right? There are some incredibly talented engineers out there. Do not get me wrong. I've worked with them. I've, I know one, we were working with one kid out of college who actually was a savant, you could say, and he was incredible. But for the most part, I love what you said. The reason why you may not get what you think you should get is because the staff you're walking into has more people that have dealt with more headwinds. And sometimes it's just time in the seat and it's not, it's not personal. Like we've talked about, right?

It's not personal. It's the way the hierarchy of the organization is where you're walking into a more senior group who have dealt with more headwinds. And I think Simon's next said it so well. He's like, we're paying those people that money because they've gone through it. We only know what you've gone through with, you know, three years of experience. Yes. You've experienced some headwinds, but have you experienced the 10 year headwinds, the 15 year headwinds, because those are different. And I thought that was so good. You said that. Yeah, I think that's when I first heard the term headwinds, I thought that is a very PR way of saying I grew up sailing.

I love it. Okay, I what I initially heard, you know, there's a global supply chain crisis or, you know, Apple's IOS security update impacted marketing, you know, so incredibly. So when I hear about external headwinds I think, okay, being candid would be, there's a lot of shit that's hitting the fan that's out of our control and now we have to deal with it. Yeah. And instead we say external headwinds, but I love Simon Sinek and that exactly speaks to how do you figure out where you are in pay when the company pays this person more and might pay you less, but it's because of that person's gone through those headwinds.

Exactly. Exactly. All right. So as you wrap up here, last three questions. Okay. Kind of rapid fire here. First thing, since we're kind of, we just finished Valentine's Day, Valentine's Week. I don't know how long people celebrate it for. What's your go to candy? Oh, bacon. Wait, what for real? It's a rapid fire. I'm, yeah, bacon. All right, they, oh my gosh, I'm dying. Second question, what trend or this isn't quite rapid fire? What trend do you, do you, are you, do you see that people should be aware of or just a topic you're kind of fascinated with right now? Ooh, in general. Yeah, just in general, it doesn't have to be.

It's a trend. I mean, it can be industry specific, it could be not. Yeah, I always like to go with the first thing that comes to my hands. I love it, go. Quiet promoting that goes back to self-advocacy, right? Okay. The quiet quitters, but the quiet promoting is, the company says we have a business need, take on more work, take on more work, and then someone's doing work above their level and not getting paid for it, which is exactly when you say, I would love to take on that work and be a team player. Also, can we audit my job description so that I am not distracted by feeling like I might be getting paid less than, because now I'm accountable for more.

I love that. Final thing, a piece of advice for HR slash staffing people right now. Piece of advice for, you know, it is exhausting to search for a job. It is exhausting. There are so many tears that are shed before and after an interview. And I think leading with just saying what needs to be said, Hey, thanks so much for taking the call. Especially if you see that someone doesn't have a job right now, like how are you doing in your job search? Like making that human connection before going right into explaining the job. It's as simple as, I guess the advice is asking, how are you?

Which kind of takes people a back? I love that. It really is. I love that. Let's talk about this rule. First of all, how are you doing the jobs? I love that. Are we exhausted and drained? Are we optimistic? Are you interviewing anyone that you like? So it's really, how can I approach this human like they're my friend that I'm going to meet at dinner tonight, right? Because you very well might. I love that. I love that. Um, sweet. Well, Amy from HR, hack your HR, Amy. Sorry. Uh, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you for being here for me today. Uh, we had some people tune in.

Uh, Chitra, if you're still watching, if not, uh, I will message you because I love you. Um, uh, check out any Graham, I think you just Google any Graham and you can take any of the tests. David, it's great to see you, Shradda. Thanks for tuning in. Alex, it's wonderful to see you and then Chris is affirming the bacon. I love that. So anyways, thank y'all for hanging out with us. Amy, stay on real quick. We'll be long off so I can say bye to you. Thanks everyone. Y'all have a great one. Oh, and follow, hack your HR on TikTok. Okay. All right, see y'all.

Cool. Okay. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful. Cause you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes. And I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the app store. I want this to be discoverable to others. And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, Taylor at Vaco.com or at Tdaston on all social media handles.

and I hope you have a fantastic day.