the power of content w/jason lengstorf

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco, VACO.com is how to get in touch with me old fashioned email social media at T D S and T D E S S E Y N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. All righty, what's going on everybody? Good morning, good morning, happy Monday. This is the, this is guidance counselor 2.0 West Coast edition time, 11 a.m. Central. I've had a lot of people message me and it's a tailor, like so I did a poll and the poll was like 930 a.m.

Central or 11 a.m. Central. And the overwhelming majority said 11 a.m. Central. But literally the thing is, is that I feasibly can't do this all the time because I usually run my purple errands during lunch and we're backing up right to lunch. But I made a special exception for Jason because it's been over, well I haven't seen you since render last year but it's been over I think two years since we caught up live. So I'm really excited to be with you today. I want to get right into it but first I want to give some shout outs to some partners. First and foremost that conference.

So Jason is a huge coffee fan like myself and that conference is actually the actual coffee spots for the show. Clark's sale actually does roast his own beans. It's really, really good. Check it out. I'm drinking sassy syntax right now. Yeah, which is a thing. It's really good. I think he's actually I'm doing more half-calf now and I'm pushing Clark to get a decaf bean. I think he's going to go more decaf. But also I'm keynoting in July. So I'm really, really excited to be there for Wisconsin. So go check that out. Also too, as always, listen, I'm a recruiter, surprise. So if you do need hiring needs, let me know.

My team actually does all things, all things. So accounting, finance, IT, ops, marketing, you name it. So if you need us, Holler, we'd love to help you all out. What else? I think, oh, finally. So David Roberts, I like David Roberts a lot. David Roberts is from across the pond in England. David Roberts was a developer term recruiter. David Roberts has a $99 ebook. I've seen it. I've skimmed through it. I like it. He's one of the few guys that really gets it. So we set up a little affiliate program. I highly recommend it. It's very difficult to make the jump from developers recruiter, not many people do it.

And he's got a really good grasp on it. So go check out his book. You get 10% off the book. So it's like 10 bucks off, 100 bucks, there's 90 bucks. And if you're you're struggling, I actually do recommend it. I really do. I don't recommend shit. I don't like. So check it out. And got to give shout to people. Alison, Mark, Pea, Sophia, Deb, it's great to see you, Michelle. It's great to see you as well. And again, as always, if you are tuned in, please comment, say, Hey, this is the networking platform. Even if you watch this in the future, people still engage.

I've had people message me and they say, you know, they message me saying, I found mentor mentees, I found jobs. I found friends. So again, please comment and engage and also ask questions. All right. So enough of me running my mouth. Hey, look, learn what Jason. There he is. And a dev. I love that. I love, I love the YouTube side of things. I'm trying to grow it anyways. All right, Jason, nothing around my mouth, man. Give the people what they want. Who are you? What do you do now? And what did you do? Okay, so I am Jason Langstorf. I am currently working as the host of Learn With Jason.

I am a freelance developer focused media and marketing consultant. I haven't quite crissed that up yet. We can work it out on this. Yeah, yeah. But prior to that, I was working as the VP of developer experience at Netlify. I've worked in engineering and developer relations for a long time, 20 years now. So I have experienced everywhere from startups like Netlify and Gatsby to Behemoth's IBM to Indiana, an indie agency for about 10 years before I made the jump into high tech. And yeah, very, very happy to be here. It's been a while. Absolutely, man. So you recently went through kind of a shift, like James Quick, where you are what now?

So basically what I realized is that I, when I moved into leadership, I was missing a lot of things. Like it's super rewarding to work with a team and to help people grow and to, you know, open doors that weren't open for other people. And I got the chance to do that at Nellify. And I loved it. wouldn't trade it for the world. And I was really starting to miss the hands-on, like, I made this work because the majority of your output as an executive is to have meetings to clear the way for other people to do work, right? You don't, like, put anything out anymore.

Like, yeah, right? Like, I think, you know, I still had learned with Jason because learn with Jason, And the show was effectively on autopilot in the sense that it's a format that's so tight at this point that all I have to do is book a guest and then arrive at the schedule time. And I have a team around me that helps me do the posting, they do the scheduling, they do all the things that make the show function. But other than that, I wasn't really getting a chance to make stuff. And really the most fun that I have is when I get to make things.

And I did a couple of projects at Notlify toward the end of my tenure there where I worked with bigger video production crews and we were able to really tell good stories. And so we made this video called A Tale of Two Universes. You can find it on YouTube if you look where we showed a kind of Twilight Zone parallel universe thing where we follow the developer through two different days. One day where you have not if I one day where you don't and just kind of went through what's different between the two. Kind of trying to take this very complicated value prop that Netlify has which is like really what Netlify sells is work you don't have to do.

Like it's not a tangible thing. It's sort of like a feeling. And people would always describe to us like, well, I feel like there was a world before Netlify and a world after Netlify. And so how do we show that? Well, we show them both worlds, right? That was the plan. And so we made this and it was it was so much fun to make. It was so much more resonant than a lot of the other type of content marketing. And I got to do things that I've always wanted to do like work on scripts and you know think through costumes and think through storylines.

And I realized I just wanted to do more of that. I really do enjoy telling stories. I really do think that the strength of reaching an audience is not talking about the features of something but helping them understand that there is a world where they live a better life and it's empowered by the tools that we choose. Every time you reach for something, whether it's a towel when you get out of the shower, a cup of coffee, or a tool at work, you're doing something that that makes your life a little bit better. And at some point you had to change from somebody who didn't do that thing to somebody who did that thing.

You have to kind of like make that transition. And it usually happens through a story. Somebody tells you about, oh man, I just found this new coffee shop and it's so good you gotta try it. And now you're a coffee drinker, right? Or I just found this new tool and I love it. It just changed my workflow. And now you are using that tool. And I think companies need to do a better job of embracing that and telling stories instead of explaining features. I love that part. Sorry, go ahead. I was just going to actually answer your question now. So after learning that and realizing that that was what I cared about, that is now what I'm doing full time.

So I'm consulting with companies and helping them tell these better stories usually through the video medium. I love that. I love that. Taya comes in here. As someone looking to create content, I'm interested to hear why it's important now. We'll get to that. Shoxi, it's great to see you, Big Dog. Chris, Noreen, and Garrett. It's great to see you as well. So yeah, let's talk about this, man. I mean, obviously, I've admired you from afar even before you first met just with the shit you put out and how it looks. And I always admire folks for taking the jump into consulting freelance and building up that business.

And talk about why companies, I love what you said there, talking about how companies need to focus. What was it not? I mean, not on the features. Yeah, right. Okay. Like everybody gets really bogged down in the specs, right? And and my best. I think the best example of this right now is if you look at like Apple versus companies, a cell PC gear, if you if you listen to somebody, it talk about their, their GPU. First of all, they're talking about a GPU. They're they're they're not talking about what they're, what's changed for them, right? And they're going to talk about the specific specs, how much power, how many, whatever it has.

And a lot of times those, yeah, those acronyms don't mean anything to me. But then you, you listen to somebody talk about Apple. And what Apple does is they have a million products and they have a million things that they could talk about and their specs are always really impressive. But typically what they do is they pick one story and then they tell that story in a way that like creates a world that people live in. And so one of the recent ones that they did was on privacy insecurity. So they didn't say things like, you know, we have 256 bit encryption on whatever. They were like, stop letting companies touch your stuff.

Right? It was this whole thing. Like you don't want anybody peeking in your phone. So, you know, Apple doesn't let people peek in your phone and everybody was like, oh, and people who did not care about privacy at all had no idea that it was a thing We're completely unaware of the ways that people gather data about us. Suddenly cared a lot and we're making the choice to choose Apple products, even though there's a decent chance that Apple's doing as bad or worse spying on us because they told a better story, right? They explain how your world improves by using their product. They don't explain how many more horsepower the thing has, right?

Like there are metrics that you can say that mean something to people. But typically, you're more telling a story. When you look at a car ad, when you look at the way people basically sell you anything, they're very rarely telling you that, oh, yeah, well, you should try this restaurant because they have 50,000 units of flavor. It's like, absolutely not. I went there and I had this ice cream sandwich that changed my life. You go, oh, I want to try an ice cream sandwich that changed my life. I don't care how many units of flavor it is. you think you arrived backstage, all you did was pour a cup of coffee from the carafe and I go, right, oh, what you drinking?

And you go, I'm drinking this and I have it up my tab and I'm gonna buy it, right? All Jason, Jason didn't go, Hey, bro, this is what I'm drinking. It's so good. It's got all these things. All he did was pour the coffee. I was like, Oh, I want that. Right? Is that so one of your two more comments here, Kevin, it's good to see you buddy. And then Alex comes in in your love, disrespect, the tools and technology can make our life so much easier. I heard once that when you create a tool, you're not just creating the tool itself, but the world in which the tool exists, 100%.

Nick, it's great to see you as well. So let's talk about the importance of content right now. I'm sure, well, from you and I backstage, I don't think you're seeing quite the cuts happening, budget cuts happening, but, which is great. But I wanna ask you, I think now more than ever, companies are probably tight in their marketing spend, tightening their budgets. Why do you think companies probably should double downborn storytelling content with this, I don't know, recession or not, whatever, but answer that for me. I think the thing that I've been seeing with companies is the companies that are doing the best in the market right now are the ones that do a good job of telling people not what the company does, but who the developer will be if they choose to use that tool.

And this can be used for good or for evil, and you can kind of make a call on which companies are doing this well. But if you think about which companies have the most fervent followings, right? It typically isn't about the specifics of the tech. It's usually about being part of that movement, being part of that group. And so- Oh, one, I tweeted this, Versailles. I just think, I feel like everyone's all over the place with Vercelle because of their marketing, and their brain, and their part is not bigger. Yada, Yada. Yeah, and I think, you know, Vercelle is one of the ones that I've kind of found them to be a little on the cult-y vibe, which is, you know, that's a playbook.

You can use that playbook. But I also think that's part of the reason why they're seeing a little bit more fallout now when they do their marketing events. And like, people are mad because it's not just like, Vercelle being a business now. It's for self violating the identity of people that they told they had to be a certain way to be part of their home, right? That's why people are so mad. So it's definitely a double-edged sword. Like if you go out there and say like, we are the way the truth and the light, we're gonna show you how to be the best developer in the world and then you change the rules, people are gonna, like now you're attacking people's identities when you do that, right?

And that's one of those things that can get really dangerous. So instead, I like the idea of telling the stories more from like, there was like old world, new world, but not about like, you know, you have been transcended, you're in the blessed group, but more like, you know, you used to do this thing and it really sucked. And like whenever you have to do it, it makes you sad. And what if you just never had to do that thing again? And everybody's like, oh, please, I'd love to never do that thing again. And then you give them a tool that does it, right? And that to me, those are the types of stories that really, Like I'll give you a great example of the type of content that I think is so genius.

When I watch TikTok and somebody is, they start the video and they're just like, okay, how come nobody told me that the way that you open an avocado is like this and then they push on the back and the pit pops out instead of having to like whack it with a knife to do something super dangerous, right? They're just like, oh, why? Why is nobody ever showing? And now your life is better. Your life has literally improved because somebody shared this little tip with you. Or I saw somebody like, tie the shoelaces of their shoes together and then put them in the dryer door so that when you run the dryer, it doesn't like bounce shoes running.

You were not gonna take the talk out earlier. But these are like the little transformative things that you learn where it takes you from being one type of person to being an after type of person. You become one of today's lucky 10,000 who just learned something that literally changed your life. Right? And to me, those are the types of stories. I don't need to sell you an identity. I just want to give you that one little thing that for the rest of your life, your life will be a tiny bit better because you learned that thing that I told you. And it wouldn't matter if I said, like, I don't know, talking about the these little life tips.

Like, if I told you, what if I can save you a thousand hours for the rest of your life on drying shoes and you'd be like, whatever, I'm moving on to the next ad. Like you just don't care about those metrics, right? But you do care about like, I cannot believe I've, I didn't know this. Like I cannot believe that this was a thing that people have been doing and nobody told me before. And now I like I suffer so much less as a result. And I think that to me that type of storytelling has so much value and so much potential. And companies really need to recognize that like the, all right, this is where I'm gonna get a little bit spicy, But I love it.

Spicy takes on my name. Mortem. But so in tech, in the broader industry where we work on software, there is a sort of deification of engineering. We think that we can code our way out of any problem. And as a result, there's a tendency to over-index on hiring very engineering heavy people. And we don't worry about how well-rounded their skill sets are. We don't care if they're good at talking to people. We don't care if they're good at explaining what their ideas are. We just care about how good they are at code. And when you build a company that's entirely made up of a leadership team that only cares about engineering, they start to lose touch with what's going on in the rest of the community.

And you can see this if you look at companies that have like really tragic falls from grace, it's typically because they were so focused on solving an engineering problem, that they forgot to explain to anybody why that engineering problem mattered, or who it was going to help, or what difference it was going to make. And maybe if they'd asked anybody, they would have realized that there was a much more impactful problem they could have solved that was closer, that didn't require as much engineering. But because we get so focused on like, I'm going to solve a hard coding problem, we don't think about what story is this telling, what information are we conveying.

And so I really do think when we go back to your question about why content is such an important thing, We need to be as companies thinking about not just what are we building, but why are we building it and who is it for and who's going to go out and tell somebody that. And that to me is something that we've under invested in. I keep talking to startups that are, they've got 30 engineers and zero marketing people, one DevRel and that one DevRel is kind of expected to build demos, not to go and communicate with people about what this product is. And then they're saying, saying, well, our adoption is just really low.

And I'm like, yeah, because you're not telling anybody what you do or why it matters. Right. Right. I love that. A few more people jumped in the chat. Jamie, what's up, big dog? It's good to see you. JD, it's great to see you as well. So I want to ask you this, right? I think the biggest thing I hear time and time of getting with content is feelings aren't metrics, right? Like, you know, just because we can tell somebody how they feel, how's that going to convert to sales? And I've talked to a lot of dev advocates on the show about that too, right? How does, how do you develop brand awareness and capture what?

I'm sure you've had that probably too from, from your potential clients. How do you respond in that manner or in that? I mean, honestly, this is a large part of the reason why I've, I've gotten out of like being in the companies is because as any company grows, they need, they need a way for people to individually own things. And so to do that, they break metrics down into smaller, smaller, more meaningless, but individually-ownable pieces so that you can own a metric like blog views. And then that metric doesn't matter. I could go out and write a bunch of BuzzFeed-style articles and drive millions of hits to the site, and we wouldn't get a single sale off of it.

But I hit my metric, so it must be marketing's fault. So it's this whole silly thing where what we really care about, what every company cares about, is are people showing up to the website? So general awareness, top of funnel. Are people signing up for the product? So, you know, actual conversion? Are people sticking around on the product? So activation. And are people paying us money? So the secondary conversion, right? So there's the initial signup and then the conversion to paid. Those are the metrics that everybody cares about. And any other metric is just a little slice of that because somebody needed to own it individually.

And to pretend that we're doing otherwise is how you create silos and factions and people who are working across purposes despite trying to solve these exact same problems. It's very much a, I find it to be really frustrating because it's just, it's where you stop working toward a goal and start trying to make a company and you're so focused on setting up like clear boundaries because you're, you know, what everybody says, and I say this too, is you need clarity, people misinterpret clarity for a very clear decision tree diagram that a robot can solve. If companies could be run by robots, they would be. They can't.

You need the squishiness of humans to make ambiguous decisions and to look at things and make calls together. And that means that a lot of times the metric needs to be, are we moving in the right direction? Like marketing and developer relations and product and engineering should all be responsible for all of these metrics and sales should be responsible for enterprise. And each of those things is affected. If product ships a new feature, that's going to affect the activation, that's going to affect the conversion. If product, marketing does a big launch, that's going to affect top of funnel. If I'm, as a dev rel, making lots of great content that's driving awareness in the, that's going to drive top of funnel, that's going to drive activation, that's going to drive conversion.

So we're all affecting these metrics. And what we should be doing is looking at them together and saying, these are the projects we did. And here's kind of the lift we saw. And we can take proxy metrics of like, OK, we launched all these blog posts and literally nobody looked at them, what's going on. But you shouldn't be saying like the only thing that matters is blog post views. And I think that over focusing on individually onable as opposed to looking at the just stalt of the work that's being done by all the different organizations leads to that sort of siloing and sniping where somebody's saying, well, not my problem.

I don't work on that because we don't own that metric. And I've watched teams completely fall apart, even within organizations, where engineering teams are saying, well, we love to fix that, but we can't, because we don't own that code. We lose sight of what's actually important so quickly when we do the metrics game. 100%. So one thing we were chatting backstage, you throw out Game of Thrones, you throw out some other TV shows. Talk about really, kind of your vision and how companies should even pivot even more, which I've thought about this too. I mean, and I've thought of some ideas on the recruiting side, but unpack that formula a bit.

Yeah. So what I'm kind of seeing in the space and what I was seeing in Netlify and what I'm still seeing is that live events just aren't the same thing as they used to be back in the late 2010s. they used to be like the way that people connected you through a live event, you would get a ton of people there, you would get tons of companies there, and there was really no other way for people to get those connections. So they were a big deal. It was critical to the industry. Post COVID, post the advent of all these collaboration tools that have come out, they're just not that anymore.

And so we're seeing that the cost of events is getting way higher, especially post COVID, where these venues costs more, vendors costs more, the global supply chain is messed up, so the cost of goods is going way up. And so suddenly an event is costing twice as much to throw, and you're selling half the amount of tickets. And even if you do get people to show up, better than half of your tickets were given away. So now the event itself is like this giant loss leader, but at the same time, like companies are, I'm watching the vast majority of people who go are like DevRels.

So we're seeing events where companies are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to send people where their dev rels will go and talk to other companies' dev rels. And the company throwing the event takes $15,000 from all of their partners. And then the partner goes and throws an event and then they trade that $15,000 back. And it's like, what's the actual ROI? Like we're not seeing ticket sales, we're not really seeing leads. The things that conferences used to drive aren't really being driven anymore. So how do we do this again? Like what's the goal? We want people to become aware. We want people to get interested.

We want people to try. That's the whole thing. That's what a conference should be, is trying to raise awareness about what's possible so that people want to go give it a try. And then it turns into a conversion down the road once they've gotten a chance to actually use it for a bit. So post COVID, events aren't working. We should be investing that same money into things that work better. So what really worked well during the pandemic is TV. And what I mean by that is people, like we were all used to like binging series on Netflix. They dropped the whole series in one day and people would watch it and it would just be over.

And that's what a conference is. A conference is a series drop. You take all the talks, you take all the content, you drop it in one day. And so you've got maybe a week a lead up of hype. You've got a day or two of the conference and then you've got like another week or so after the fact where people are maybe watching the conference talks. If you look at the new ones, I never think it's going to happen. Well, and if you look at the conference talks online, like most of them aren't getting that many views. Their views are typically in the hundreds, not the thousands.

So these companies are spending all this money to create all this content that then goes nowhere in the grand scheme of things. But if they spent that same money to make a TV show, because during the pandemic, what we saw was Netflix and all the other companies, they stopped doing the binge drop. They started doing weekly drops again, right? because that was the thing. They realized that if you get an episode on Monday and then you have to wait till next Monday to do the next thing. I'm gonna watch it. First of all, you're gonna watch it. You're invested, you wanna see, and you're gonna talk about it.

You're gonna be wondering with your friends. You're gonna be in the Reddit fan forums. You're gonna be doing all these things to discuss the episodes, to try to predict what's gonna happen next time to guests, to have all these things. You're gonna argue about who got voted off the show in the Great British Bake Off, so on and so forth. And so if companies want to do this same thing, if they want that huge ROI on the investment in these events, make the event episodic content. Don't make it like a live one-off event. Collaboration tools are too good. It is so easy now to get people together in one group that conferences don't have the same value as they did before.

But what it's really hard to do is make something entertaining that people want to watch. And so if companies do that and then drop these, like, let's make the Great British Bake Off for nerds. Let's make a reality show about high, like, excellent devs going in and rescuing companies that had to go online during COVID. And they didn't have any money, so their websites suck, and they're getting their lunch eaten by Amazon. Let's show those stories. Let's go make an Anthony Bourdain parts unknown style show about the tech community outside of Silicon Valley, all these people who build the web, who've never been to San Francisco.

There's so many good stories to tell. And if we drop those week over week, it's something to talk about. It's something to think about to look forward to. And these companies can be part of telling those stories in a way that actually keeps people interested in coming back and engaged. And we can find ways to make it interactive too. You do the Great British Bake Off for nerds. Well, guess what? Between shows, you can launch the same code challenges and do giveaways for people who want to do that, right? There's so many fun ways to do cross-promotion, to do community interaction, to make these interactive and playful and it's going to make such a huge difference in the way that people respond to this media.

And we know this works. We just saw the React documentary come out. It owned the internet for a week and a half. What if it was a docu-series? And that's the thing. You can sustain these things by being strategic and by being clever about it. And it's cheaper than a conference. I think I ran Jamstack Conf. I ran it. I was the person who was ultimately going to get fired if Jams.conf went poorly while a bunch of other people ran it. Yeah. And I've also priced out what it would cost to do like the Great British Bake Off for nerds. And it's how much is it?

How much would be the Great British Baking Show for nerds? Like if a company wanted to run that, you could do it for like 400 to $500,000. So you could offset that money, but put it in comparison. It's eight episodes, right? It's eight episodes and you can offset all of that with sponsors. Like find, we go out, we get Cypress to be the official testing partner. Now everybody who builds something has to write a couple of Cypress tests to prove that it works. You work with StackBlitz to be the official dev partner so that everybody uses StackBlitz as the container that you build it in, right?

There's so many ways that you can do this. And now that $50,000 you were spending for a platinum sponsorship at a conference that nobody went to is instead going to be $50,000 to give you eight weeks of airtime where people are actively building with your tool in an entertaining story. There's just so much more leverage in this. I have so much more leverage. Oh gosh, it's already time. Where the hell is this? What about what you did? Jason, I mean, so what, so in your experiences, why do you think companies can't wrap, we'll end here. Why do you think companies just can't wrap their minds about this?

I think it's new. I think it's one of those things where once we get somebody to do it, everyone will realize that it's possible. And then we'll see a little bit of a gold rush for it. So whoever wants to do this first, call me. You'll get a first mover advantage. Like there are some really big opportunities here. And I'm just shamelessly pitching at this point. But even if you don't call me, just do it. Like this is where we're going. This is where we're going to end up. There are so many creative people in this industry. We can see people making incredible content around the industry on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, et cetera.

We know that this is what's going to happen. It's just a matter of recognizing that these people who are like web video native folks, they're going to do it for somebody. So it might as well be you. And if you do it first, then you can be the company that broke the story as opposed to the company that got on a bandwagon. Yeah, yeah, and I've talked to Jason. There's been a lot of comments. I mean, again, I mean, we have, yeah, let's see here, Ozarks for devs would love to see a great British, you know, bake off. I tell Jason backstage, I would love to get five recruiters from five different agencies into a house, because the shit that we have to deal with every single day is ridiculous.

And it would be fascinating for a normal human being to see the day in the life of a recruiter real time, like real, real time. I will tell you, it's probably gonna be more drama filled than the Kardashians to be totally honest. Yeah. But, well, Jason, so last question I always ask people, Last question, I always ask people because we had guidance counselors in middle school, high school, and college, but now as adults don't really have them per se. What would be the greatest piece of career advice to your younger self? Be a generalist. Try everything and learn what fits because there are so, so many ways to get by in the world.

And if you don't try them, you'll never realize that it was the right thing for you. So don't worry about wasting time. Don't worry about needing to specialize. Take the time to try things. And if you need any science to back that up, there's a book called Range by David Epstein that is a bunch of research about why being a generalist is actually better for your career in the long run. I love that. Awesome. Well, Jason, thanks for coming on. Stay on real quick backstage so I can say bye to you. But everybody go connect with Jason on Twitter. We are fellow Korgi fans, fellow coffee fans.

I do love a good Smashburg every once in a while again the power of branding every time I think of Jason I think Content cursor go go connect with Jason's a great follow Jason. Thanks again for coming on man. I appreciate you're having me and tomorrow I'm not 30 a.m. Central. We're back to normal time. I actually have Todd worth. He's a CEO co-founder of infinite red so Gantt James, all those guys, I finally have the third strike on the show with Todd. So we're going to talk about building good engineering culture tomorrow at 930-9. So you all have a good one, appreciate y'all. See you all tomorrow, peace.

Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finish an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the app store. I want this to be discoverable to others. And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, Taylor at vaco.com or at T.

Dessen on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.