navigating change w/ frank bach, frmr principal designer of headspace

full transcript

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. So that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me social media at tdesntes E S S E Y N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. All righty. So everybody, good morning. Well, good afternoon. Good afternoon for me. It's still morning. out for Frank. But also to no one's here yet. I always like jump in starting to have like a chat with like me myself and I also talked to myself a ton too. So it's really easy.

But I'm excited to have Frank on the pod today on the pod show. I never know what to call it. You know, people like what podcast was like, it's not really a podcast because it's like a morning show. But then I put it on podcast for them. So it's really a morning show. So Frank, it's good to have you. and thanks for having me. It's good to see you this morning. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Frank, I got to ask before and also, by the way, for those of you tuning in, say, hey, I would love to hear from you also just want to make sure like this is working because sometimes it can be finicky with LinkedIn.

I'm actually going to go to my LinkedIn real quick. Frank, while I'm checking everything out. Yeah, sure. What's first off, do you like coffee? I have to ask this because people are like going away from coffee. I feel like, are you a coffee guy? Yeah, I like coffee. I have one of those little mocha Moca things, you know the little steel one. Yeah, I'm not like I'm not a coffee snob, but I definitely enjoy a couple cups a day and There's a place nearby called go away. I've never been to LA. So what's your father? I really like there's a place with terrible names called go get them tiger.

I like them They make some good coffee. I've subscribed to their bean bean subscription, you know, okay copy every every month Okay There is a spot out of Venice people speak really highly of common notties and That's been on my list of places to go, but I have not been but I'll bet you I hear about it so much I'll bet you all love it if I try okay awesome awesome Well, I definitely need to need to check that out whenever I'm at in LA. Now I'm a friend in LA, so I'll hit up Frank if I'm ever in LA. Um, so Robert, it's good to see you Mitchell's good to see you as well.

So again, for those of you tuning in, you're probably like, Taylor, you usually go 930 AM on central on Fridays. I do Frank is West because this is my special edition West Coast time. It's basically 930 or noon, noon is for my West Coast friends. Frank's got kids. We were talking about kids before we went live and you have one or two. Just one. One. Just one. Okay, so preschool drop off was today, which I can appreciate it and then I had a doctor's appointment So it was completely unhinged on my end. So yeah, 12 o'clock So you all say hey the reason for this show is this is two two-sided thing This is a networking platform and this is a morning show So this is a place for you to comment to engage with folks.

I've had people on the show I'm not saying this because Frank's on the show I'm saying this is true people have found jobs on the show through like through networking with people in the comments people have found mentorship that people have found apprenticeships, people have found just a ton of friends. So comment, let us know what you're tuning in from. Even if you're watching this in the future, I would still do that. A lot of people are just kind of like go through and like network with people, right? So do that. Also ask Frank questions. I eat my own dog food, as I say. Frank posted some like absolute fire content on Twitter back in September, and I just slid into his DMs.

And I said, Frank, I don't know you, but I would love to interview you. And he goes, absolutely. So we're here because of it. So ask Frank questions. He doesn't bill you for it in this case. So please ask any questions. And then again, but again, tell me where you're tuning from because I love to hear where people are tuning in from because we are typically international on the show. Second thing is, I wanna give a shout out to we're talking about coffee. That conference is a coffee sponsor of the show. That conference, engineering conference in Austin and also Wisconsin. I'll be speaking in the Austin conference in January.

They also have been this only coffee that I know of. So only conference code conference that has coffee beans and I'm drinking it right now So shout that conference also thanks to gun for hiring me and putting up with my shit as I say so Mitchell's good to see you Nick Alex is great see y'all as well Frank, let's go ahead and dive in man. Let's get the people what they want. Who are you? What do you do? And we'll go from there sure Sure, yeah, my name's Frank I have been a designer of some type for I don't know almost 20 years started got my start in the world of graphic design and a brand marketing and then eventually transition to like more digital roles and now I'm working as a product designer and you know, that's that's kind of a the how I make a living part of my life the other side is Who I make a living for?

I'm married my wife Terry and a daughter named comb who's we were saying I dropped her off at preschool this morning But yeah, that's that's was it was it the first was it the first drop was it the first drop? No, no, it's a few weeks. Okay. It's been a few weeks. I just want to make sure we didn't need to process your feelings, dropping your kid off first day. I was like, oh boy, that's heavy. That first day is rough. Yeah, no, we're a few weeks in, so we're in a good spot. Friday is Arts and Crafts Day, so she's happy to be there.

I love that. Well, my wife, Super Creative, also went to SCAD, by the way. And my daughter is taking up after her. She loves drawing, but I am the least artistic person there is. Scott, it's good to see a man from Being Town of Love at Christina. Yes, brand marketing is my favorite as well. So Frank, man, so you tweeted some amazing content. So I want to read, I'm going to read what you said. You said, are you struggling to navigate change in your role as a designer? How can you stay engaged and motivated when there's a lot of complexity and certainty? A few things I've done to overcome this challenge.

Overcoming fears, number one, talk about imposter syndrome, create time and space to be visible within your organization and build visibility and credibility. And then the next person was me asking you to come on the show. So let's go ahead and start out, man. Talk about why you put that tweet out. I mean, one of the things that I tend to use LinkedIn or Twitter for have been to talk about design leadership and how we, as designers, we can better show up in the workplace and be impactful. And I don't like what people talk about having a seat at the table, but you know what I'm saying?

How do you be seen for more than just a designer? Because I think, especially in the world, that I'm in, in the world of product design, we're expected to be cross-functional collaborators, have our hands in a little bit of product engineering design. So we sort of need to be the glue that kind of holds it all together. And yeah, also just when I sense myself going through some motions in my day to day, and I've got something that's top of mind, Twitter tends to be that sort of release where I don't have a content calendar or any strategy behind it. just sort of the things that I like to put out into the world and they're helpful to people and so far it seems Some of it has resonated.

Yeah, and that's that's awesome to hear So let's talk about imposter syndrome It's you said imposter syndrome is number one put some tools into place to support you to learn and grow rather than retreat Talk about that man. Yeah Well, I think there's a lot of pressure on designers to kind of be good at everything, you know, like not necessarily like having a couple a couple things that you're good at I think is totally fine you don't have to be the best graphic designer, product designer, motion designer, prototyper, you know pick a couple things and get good at those and you know the imposterry feeling I don't know if it's because a lot of us came from I don't know can we come from art school and then we end up in this like technical field and these kind of things.

And it can sometimes feel like we don't belong in that space, or at least I've felt that way. And yeah, the imposter syndrome feeling can kind of kick in and especially in the world of tech. I mean, I remember my first day at my last job at Headspace, all these product managers around me all came from Ivy League schools, they're all Harvard grads, you know, all these, all these great American institutions that I, I was not familiar with. I grew up in Canada, went to a tiny community college that was basically a mining school with an art wing. To this? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, being in these new environments, I felt so out of place.

And I, I do a lot of workshops and I see that this is a common problem for folks in the design field is that imposter-y feeling. And probably not just designers, probably just a normal human thing to go through. How have you overcome imposter syndrome? I know there's actually been a few engineering leaders that I've actually posted recently about imposter syndrome. I feel like it comes in waves on the seasons or something. I feel like everybody kind of feels it. How have you been able to overcome imposter syndrome? Or maybe you're still dealing with it? Yeah. For sure, yeah. I think he said it comes in waves.

Something I like to do is I keep a folder on my desktop of screenshots of anything good or nice that has happened throughout the day, sometimes specifically in the workplace. And so if somebody gave me a shout out on Slack and said, Hey Frank, thanks for that. That was great. Or even this conversation we're having today, I'll go ahead and screenshot this and save it in a folder. And when I'm feeling the dip, when you feel the dip, just pop open that good vibe folder on your desktop and just kind of remind yourself that, you know, you've got what it takes, you can overcome challenges and you're worthy of the, you know, the job, the position, the salary, et cetera, that you're in.

I love that, I love that. So let's kind of move into, cause I wanna, I have so many questions for you. Let's talk about the next thing. Create time and space to be visible within your organization and contribute to more meaningful projects, especially important in a remote environment. You know, I think this, I think this bullet point, the next bullet point are just huge bullet points. Talk about specifically the creating time and space to be visible within your organization. It's like no one talks about this. No one talks about this. No. You know, yeah, some people call it politics, strategy, whatever. I think especially in a remote environment or a hybrid environment, it's very easy to sort of hide out, right?

Like you can be camera off. You can probably do that 80% of the time unless your workplace has some strict camera on policies. But if your camera off 80% of the time and no one sees you, no one knows you, no one sees your impact, when it comes time for, you know, promotion time, who are you? Nobody knows you. Yeah, reviews. Who's Frank? I don't know, I never seen a Frank. What does he look like? What does he, you know, what's his personality like? There's, that's definitely tempting. And I think it's okay, some people can do that, but you got to recognize that it has an impact on your visibility and your ability to influence in a company when you are actually being seen.

Yep, yep, absolutely. If people feel like it's politicky. I think that's a word, we're gonna make it a word this Friday. If people have that feeling, what would you encourage them to approach this strategy without feeling woo. I guess, except that it is, politics. We're all just humans trying to work our way up the corporate ladder, so to speak. Everyone wants what's best for their teams themselves, their families, and we're all kind of working and doing the best we can with the tools we have. I would try to look at it a little bit more as a game than a politics thing, sort of gamified in your mind.

and what do I need to do to get to that next level? What are the things I can put into place to navigate my path forward and upward or whatnot, whatever direction you wanna go in? No, that makes sense. That would be my way, yeah. I love it. Alex comes in here maybe a different framing to being visible as being helpful. I love that. Find out what people around you're struggling with and try to find, I love that so much. Love that. Yeah, that's cool. Prince as well. We are worldwide today. We are in Nigeria. I love that so much. So and Frank, I want to talk about a little bit more about contributing to more meaningful projects.

How does somebody do that maybe if they're not on a meaningful project? Yeah, I have a conversation with your manager. Do really well in the project that's maybe less meaningful so that you can try to get a a more meaningful one later. Sometimes it's a conversation with your manager where, okay, I'll do this, maybe sort of less impactful project or two, but you got to throw me a carrot at the end of this thick kind of thing where I'm going to need a little something more so that I can better display my impact, my abilities. I think that's a good sign of a good manager is somebody who can acknowledge that with you and help guide you towards, you know, okay, so, you know, what are you working towards?

We're working on promotion. And very rarely are you going to be working on that promotion by yourself. It's usually going to be a conversation with your manager and with a good manager, they're supporting you through that. And finding opportunities to be seen, to be visible, like I said, to be helpful. And you just want to make sure you're you're being helpful and you're not like the tree that fell in the forest that nobody saw or heard. You know, you're being helpful and it's being recognized, which is totally okay. Absolutely. What do you think? So I've been interested in this and I have a problem with this too.

What do you think about putting like client feedback, praising something you've done, but it's obviously the company, you know, how do you navigate that? Have you done that? Like thrown like, you know, somebody, maybe a client or stakeholder goes, Hey, Frank, what you've done was incredible. Have you thrown that into the Slack channel? Because it because it shows obviously what you've done for the company, the product, but then obviously you were attached to that. I'm kind of curious your thoughts. Right. Yeah, there's a level of like how comfortable you are with sort sort of boasting, you know, sort of bragging about it. I would usually reserve that kind of stuff for like one-on-one manager conversations rather than big public displays of how awesome I am.

But if those moments are happening enough, then people are probably seeing it. It's probably in the Zoom chat or the Teams chat or whatnot or on Slack. So yeah, I would still save it, you know, for when it comes time to pushing for that promotion you're looking for. It's helpful to look back on the quarters or the year gone by and bring that stuff up at the end of the year whenever your promo cycle is. But yeah. Yeah. I love that. So the next thing, build visibility and credibility to influence stakeholders. It's not about being the loudest voice in the room, what a meanful and confident one.

That's good. I mean, that's straight heat right there. Thanks. Yeah, I'd say to add to that, I think people can often think, you know, leadership means being, you know, standing at the front of the room and being the person who's making all the decisions who's got the loudest voice. I think it's okay for you not to. that you can find ways to support your team. You can find ways to engage others so that they're bringing out their best selves and that it's not just sort of the Frank show. We're all a team trying to make things happen. And in a position of leadership, it's kind of your job to elevate others to not just yourself.

Because it's really about the team and your customers and the business and not necessarily about you. I think the good things that sort of happen to you, whether that be recognition, promo, whatnot, those are all like side effects of doing a good job at the other stuff, right? Yep, absolutely. So I kind of want to move into that to the last half of this interview. It's flying by, which I knew what would happen. So obviously you were at a company for a long time, seven years. Yeah, seven years. Seven years, yeah. Seven years. You and I were chatting backstage. I was at my previous company for 12 years.

I think there's a lot of people moving around right now in this market who have been at a company for a long time. What's your advice to them, man? I'm sure you had a lot of feelings parting ways. And the point of this podcast is to show like, hey, everybody's human, right? Whether you've been in a company for two years or 12 years or seven years, everyone's going to have the same feelings. Can you talk about processing that? because that's obviously probably a big chapter that came to a close. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Being part of a 200-person layoff is not a fun thing to go.

It's a good thing to go. Please. Do you want to be able to, yeah. Or, maybe, maybe 180. But it's good to remind yourself that these things happen. This is just accept that this is a part of work, especially in the US, things like that, will employment. Sort of mentally prepare yourself for the possibility of that happening. And I think it, you can give yourself a little bit of time to kind of process that. If something like that is to happen to you, I would encourage people to not sort of jump into action mode right away. Interesting. If you can. Okay. You know, like take a, take a beat and just sort of consider what's happened because I think in that moment, you're probably not super clear headed.

You're a little, you're maybe a bit emotional, frustrated and that's okay. But yeah, I think reaching out to your network, you know, people you've connected with over the years, that's kind of, I think, a good go-to move after you've kind of gone through the processing part of it. And I think you'd be surprised how, you know, how quickly people are to kind of show up for you in those moments. So, and again, I love having senior folks on the show like yourself because I think a lot of times, especially in the engineering space, people are like, oh, well, they're untouchable. They're seniors. They're safe, right?

And so, and they don't feel the same way we do. I mean, we just naturally do that. If you see somebody like they don't do, they don't deal. Can you talk about how you navigated the job search recently and like kind of what was is your tactics around that. And real quick, actually, JK, there's a question I want to get to real fast, so we can answer that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Frank, what part of your work feels most meaningful to you? I really enjoy collaborating with others and that moment where you're working through an idea and it sounds like it's not quite there yet. You're not sure if it's gonna pan out and then you hit that sort of aha moment and you're like, oh yeah, this is actually gonna be pretty awesome.

I'm really happy with how this is going. And then this flip side to that is when you actually build it and ship it to customers and you get the feedback from the people who are actually using it that they're finding it helpful or useful. Love that part. I love that. I love that. Yeah, Scott comes in the idea of pausing when agitated or doubtful is incredibly powerful. 100%. I'm working on that in counseling. So yeah, pausing is huge. Very hard to make sound decisions, Nick, in the heat of the moment. Totally. Eugene, yeah, layoff sucked. Definitely take a pause. I lost my nine to five the second time.

It was a good time to reflect. And then shout out Eugene. He just launched his business and has been killing it. So Eugene, congrats, man. So yeah, so what was your kind of strategy, man? I mean, especially living in a city like LA, I mean, I'm sure you're probably relatively networked into the design community out there. So just kind of give some tips and tricks. For sure. Well, the landscape has changed so much because now we're in this post pandemic sort of world where the last time I was on the job hunt, I was pretty much limited to places within, I don't know, 10, 15 miles of where I was living, basically, unless I'm willing to relocate.

So now we're in this era where you might have an edge on somebody, if you're local, to where that headquarters is, but you could also lose an opportunity to somebody who lives in a different city, state, even country. So it was unique in the way that I had to go really far wide and kind of be open to any possibilities really. And there's so many different ways you can do this. Like I'm hearing more and more people going freelance these days. There were some opportunities that came up that were with startups that would have been more like 20 hour weeks instead of before we are we weird.

Those leads come from I'm curious like where like are you a part of a slack a discord where where those came from? Like where did those part-time leads come from? Twitter and LinkedIn, I think just being public with the layoffs, that was probably a moment of like, I feel like I shouldn't say anything because I've had so many people message me that. So many people. Yeah, yeah. And I just had to get over the fear of it and like, I know it's not personal, I know it's not me. Any team would be lucky to have me and I just got caught in a weird situation.

And yeah, that's where we go from here. And if you have a little bit of a network and a little bit of reach, you gotta let people know how do you expect anyone to know that you're available? And so many opportunities came from that. I was in interviews, conversations, coffee chats, things that led to nowhere, things that led to full loop interviews, like anyway, you slice it. I was chatting with startups, VCs, agencies, tech companies, companies like just looking, you know, haven't been on the job hunt in seven years. So I need to see what's out there. Yeah. What what are the new, you know, seven years a long time of what would you say?

Lots of inflation, you know, when it comes to do those things and being able to see, okay, seven years later, at my level, what is what does compensation look like? You know, not a not a not a convo at the head in seven years. I've changed a lot in seven years. Totally. I would say two years. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Big time. No, I was just open, open, open to it all. Yeah, talking to anyone and everyone and carving out some time to do that and then sort of figuring out where you want to go from there. So, so, so, So you have, you have a family daughter.

You said daughter. Yep, yep. So what, trying to balance like the job search and fan, I mean, I get it right. I just went through it myself. Did you hold yourself to any sort of like metrics or like, hey, I need to at least be doing this a day? Cause I think as a people who are watching right now, I think I love to give them some sort of tangible thing for that. Nothing super strict. I think I was pretty open to the flow of life and conversations. I mean, I knew I had a sort of a date on when I'd like to land something and also a date on when my severance would run out.

And that's the pressure part, for sure. I was lucky to grab a couple of contract jobs that were able to elongate the interview process. So I didn't have to rush into anything I didn't want to. But yeah, I think as long as you're kind of putting one foot forward every day, you know, take the weekends off, if you can. Monday through Friday, try to make a couple meaningful updates, changes, whether that's, you know, a conversation, an update to your portfolio, applying to a dozen jobs, whatever that might be, just every day chip away a little bit. And eventually they start, you know, the snowball starts kind of rolling.

It does. It does. You know, just, you know, all of a sudden you'll find yourself in like, you know, hopefully a few interview loops with a few companies that you're, you know, you're interested in. One of the things that, and this kind of tie a bow in the last part I want to talk to you about. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I had space and obviously with being mindful and it's something that I'm becoming very passionate about. Right. How are you able to talk about the mental whiplash that job search gives you? How did you overcome that? Because like, like, I joke with friends. They're like, you get so excited off the stupidest business ideas.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. A mobile app for cat litter? Yeah. I'm hype about cat litter. And it's just like, because you just want the next job. Talk about how you dealt with kind of emotional back and forth and then we get into the more mindfulness to wrap it up. Well, I'll say I felt so lucky to work on the Headspace app for as long as I did. You know, that was that hardly felt like work. It felt like a mission I was on with a few hundred people and we were trying to make something happen. And we did and super proud of that. And I think just recognizing that any life situation, whether job relationship, probably not going to last forever.

And just wrapping your mind around that. And yeah, being sort of being able to step away and be happy with kind of how it went, I think was big. And just giving giving a little bit of space between the last job and the next job, I think that, you know, it's kind of like mindfulness in the nutshell is giving space between thoughts and feelings. And in any, I'm a big believer that in any possible job, there are going to be parts that you can align with, and then maybe some parts that you don't align with as much. Yeah. Those might be mission oriented. Those might be technical challenges.

They might be, maybe you really want to work on a mobile app and not a web app, or maybe this team designs dashboards and you don't really like doing those things. There's gonna be, there's gonna be parts you like and parts you don't like, and hopefully the things you like outweigh the things that you don't like. But I think a lot of times people are out there searching for the perfect job. And sometimes you find it, sometimes you don't, but even when you do, sometimes that company needs to make decisions to switch things up. And yeah, I just think, try to find that nugget in each job description or opportunity that you feel you can really get behind, you know?

Yeah, 100%. As we wrap up here, I want to give you a chance to kind of plug anything that you have going on or that you want people to check out. I mean, obviously, I saw from your LinkedIn, you're doing some consulting for a streetwear brand. I'm going to look them up. but I'm just kind of curious on what you got going on. You want to share for people. Yeah, I run, I run a, an apparel brand called Sunshine Shop and I work with a lot of artists and creators to basically help them monetize their online following. Nice. And I will say that, you know, that sort of side project was pretty helpful in me landing the next job.

There you go. to the side project to network. I love it. Yeah, totally. To network and to show that genuine interest in that thing. And yeah, big believer inside projects. I know a lot of us have families, kids, other responsibilities. But if you can find something that you can chip away at on your own time, that's maybe not super deadline driven, I think that can be helpful. But yeah, that that thinks to plug. Not sure, I mean, it's tough out there. If you're on the job hunt right now, just be, you know, recognize it's not as easy as maybe it was a couple years ago.

I think we all got, we went through the heat of the pandemic when hiring was just crazy. Like everyone thought the sky was falling, but companies ended up really over hiring, I think, for many departments, many teams. And a lot of companies had really good years through that, especially in the tech world. And now we're in the correction moment of it, you know, where we're recovering. It's kind of like the hangover after the party situation. It really is. We're dealing with it. It's like, we all take a PD a light right now. All companies are taking PD a light. And I think when you go, the more you go through that, you know, the older you get in the more experience you get in your career, the more you can start to sort of see the cycles of it and expect, sort of expect it a little bit more.

And so for me, that's been a big lesson. And like, the roller coaster doesn't go up forever. It will go up and eventually it has to drop. So just be prepared for those moments. And you'll be hopefully less stressed and be able to take your time finding the next thing and find something that's really lined up with your values. 100%. All right, rapid fire, last three questions. Ready? first question. What do you do outside of work that brings you joy? Skateboarding. I love it. How long has skateboarding for? Oh, my whole life since I was like 12 or 13. Nice. I tried to get it on it.

I can never get it on it. Second question. Tools, design tools, technologies, trends, software that you're tinkering with or reading about or any of that stuff, just anything fun, kind of in your ecosystem that you're interested in. Great question. I don't know, pretty much just a hardcore Figma user, try to dabble and check out the plugins, the community, see what's out there. Yeah, I'm also, I'm no expert in it. I think I'm pretty good at it, but I definitely love checking out the tutorials and stuff that people have to offer just so I can better improve. Yeah, I know no specific other other tool. I've been I've been kind of chilling for the for the last the last little while while I'm Looking for the next job.

I love it last question There's shows called guidance counselor 2.0 because we had guidance counselors at middle school high school in college But now as adults we don't really have a guidance counselor. So what would be your biggest piece of advice to young Frank? Try to worry less about perfectionism, you know, just kind of get through it, you know, better done than perfect 90, you know, 95% is okay or 80% is okay. Just, just, yeah, get it, get it done, move on. It's better. It's better to do that than to, I don't know, miss deadlines or let people down that kind of thing because you're striving too hard for perfectionism.

I love it. I love it. All right, y'all. Well, thanks again for hanging out with us today. That's it. Hope you have a good weekend. Frank Stay on real quick. So I can say about you backstage. But again, yoga, check out Frank. Follow him on Twitter. What's what's your ad on Twitter? Ad on Twitter is Zen Daddy with 3D zzendaddy. I love it. I love it. Well, y'all have a good one. Thanks again for hanging out with us today. I appreciate it. Y'all have a good one. We'll see y'all back on Monday. Peace. So yeah. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful because you know why?

There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finish an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others and the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it. Please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again if you need to reach out to me at Tdastin on all social media handles and I hope you have a fantastic day.