capturing attention on the job search w/tom redman, head of dev dx

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Let's give the people what they want. Man, real quick high level. What do you do? And we'll go from there. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for inviting me on. This is one of those times where it's like, I don't know. I found saying yes to either scary or crazy opportunities to be only beneficial. And so your last, yeah, I was in those comments. You're like, yeah, you should be on the show. Sure. Who are you? But yeah, it was great. So anyway, I'm Tom. I'm right now I'm ahead of developer experience at convex. And what is convex? Yeah, so yeah. So convex is a new and very interesting way to for product developers and front end developers and application developers to build their full stack app.

It effectively, the way that I think about it is that it's like kind of like a next generation database and backend building platform. Oh, nice. And so the tech, it's why I ended up trying to work here and ultimately lucky enough to land the role here was because I came across the technology and it hit me like a ton of bricks. And I was like, oh my god. This is what I've been looking for my whole life. And I know now I work there and it's like one thing. But that is why I dug into the company and they were hiring for ahead of DX.

And I put my name in the hat because I was like, I need more of this. I need to share this. I need to help. Yeah, I love that. I love that. So let's dive in, man. I mean, obviously lots of cover today. And like I said backstage, you know, I got a bounce a little early or just right on time, rather. And so man, you posted on my live with Aaron, how you found, I guess I'm assuming this most recent job. Can you talk about your job search journey? Because again, I mean, I'm sure it resonates with a lot of people right now. Yeah, absolutely.

And so I prior to this role, I was director of product at a marketing tech company focused in real estate. And prior to that, I was director of product at Buffer, which is a social media management company. I was at Buffer for eight years. And I joined as a mobile engineer that has sort of became like de facto mobile product. That became like official product. And then it went to like head of growth and then eventually director product. So I had this kind of arc from engineering into product. And then I moved to another company where it was product as well. And I wasn't actually like actively seeking out a change.

But I'm always kind of like keenly aware of special opportunities. And those opportunities that you'd be remiss not to try. It's really speaking to you in a bit of a different way. And so again, very fortunate to have been in that position. But I'm also a builder in my soul. All I do with my extra capacity is build things. I like to design and I like to program. And I like to make software. And so I'm always kind of spinning up new projects here and there. And a couple of months, this is probably four months ago now. I was creating a new project. I do not remember what it was.

And I wanted to use some auth. So I found Clirk auth, which is a really great product. And during their onboarding, they let you choose what kind of database that you want to use with auth and like in their docs. And one was Firebase and one was Superbase and one was convex. And I hadn't heard of convex. And so thus, my interest was peaked. And I clicked into it. And I started reading on the website. And I signed up. And I went through the auth onboarding process with Clirk and convex. And like I said, the convex product hit me like a ton of bricks in terms of the things that keep me from building the actual novel ideas and innovative things that are in my mind.

Every time I spin up a project, I'm googling what database do I use today? Is Postgres still a thing? Or am I going to get blasted on Hacker News? Every time. And then I'm going through this cycle every time of scaffolding the back end. And honestly, those first moments of building something are your most intense motivation. And it can be robbed when you end up spending 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 hours scaffolding out the perfect application infrastructure. So anyway, this problem spoke to me. And I signed up for convex. And it was all done. It was done. There was the database. There's functions. The thing that really struck me was that it was this reactive database.

So if anybody here is a coder, has familiarity with React, convex lets you take all of your use state functions and just get rid of them altogether. And instead of use state, you're basically like this isn't the exact syntax, but it's like use convex state. And that's kind of it. But what that does is actually stores your state in the database. And you can just say, give me a list of products. Use state style. And when that list of products updates, everything on your UI updates. If something in the convex database changes, like a product changes, you get that update for free as if it were changed somewhere locally on your client.

So this was like magic. It's a pub sub feature without any of the headache. And so anyway, this is why I was like captivated. And because of that, I was like, well, this really feels like something special. And worth it. And you weren't there yet, right? No, I mean, we're talking about your job search. OK, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I was not. I was not. You just randomly found this. Yeah. OK. Yeah, I found it. And I was like this, oh my god. It puts the joy back in coding for me. When I only have, I do this for fun, like on the weekends. And so I got finite time and energy.

Like I really want to be doing it. Like I had this picture in my brain and this thing I want to build, I want to get to that part. And context, let me do that. And so I dove in the product and the website. And as I do, I'm like, I'm super nerdy about kind of getting the background of companies and like, who, what was the impetus of this? You started this, who are they? And I came across the, you know, they're about page and they're founders, Jamie, James, and Sujay. And I saw that they were, I knew that they were hiring ahead of DX and I was like, huh, this is a, like that rule, the way it was described, almost sounded like I had written it as my ideal world.

It was like it involves like media production and like video creation and like a podcast recording and programming, like literally built like my hobby, but like record it and walk through it and talk over it and create video. I was like, this is, this can't be real. So I was like, that's really cool. And I saw that James, who is the CTO, he had done his, his master's and his PhD at MIT in 2012. And so again, being like kind of nerdy, I, I, Google his thesis, his PhD thesis, which was something about a coordinated transaction system. He's like a database research expert. Yeah. And the founders are the core team that they were all at Dropbox for like eight years.

They were the core team that scaled out Dropbox. So there was like some chops there. And so I looked up his, his thesis and I read it, I kind of skimmed it, I read it over, but I was like, I think, I think I know what this is saying, like what he's putting out there. Yeah. And then I read it again. I was like, yeah, I think so. And I think I knew enough to try to put it together. So he was just describing a system. It didn't have an implementation. So I, I decided to honestly mostly out of like my own curiosity and fascination, like could I do this?

Am I understanding what this thing is saying? And I spent four or five hours building out this system that he had described in Python. And after that time, I actually got, I got something running. It's not something you would ever know. Were you interviewing during this time or is this just a side project that you are doing? Okay. Total side project. Yeah. Yeah. No, no interviews with with and know their companies. I hadn't even reached out to anybody on the team. But when I had something that was working and there was this, I was like, I'm pretty sure this is doing what it's described. I recorded this video demo of it, of it working and like demonstrating how it's doing all these things all at the same time and everything's like working.

And I emailed it to James. And I said, yo, I came across contacts. It looks really cool. Here's a weird thing. I implemented your thesis from 2012. Anyway, this was fun. Have a look. And he got back to me and was like, that's what? But like, who does that? Like that's crazy. But what it does clearly, and this, this wasn't the total objective, but it works. It dovetails nicely into the fact that if I chose to seriously pursue the head of DX role, I at least had direct contact now with the CTO. And that I think ended up being critical. For if I had gone through the regular application process.

Yeah. In this case, it would have, I would not have got the job. And that's because they were in the final final final stages with a couple other very, oh, no way. So you just like jump the entire process. Yeah. By doing this one project. Yeah. Yeah. And there's like, there's part of me that doesn't feel great about that, to be honest. Like, I mean, like, like you did your thing. I mean, shout out to you. I mean, yeah. I did it. And I do, I do have, I'm really passionate about like getting this product in front of more people. And I think that that came through in my second email when I did decide to actually like put my hat in the ring.

So I had, I said, hey, James, like I saw that you are hiring ahead of DX. Here's what I think I see convex as. Here's what the opportunities are as I see them. Here's like a couple of bullet points on my background. But more importantly, here's how I'm thinking about like what you've put forth as the DX role. Like ideas are just trying to communicate as concisely as I could that I understood what they were trying to accomplish with this role. Yeah. And that, and that resonated and that, that work is bullet points. This was probably, it was like, hey, James, like maybe a short intro paragraph and then 15 bullet points.

And then it was like, hey, if you want to chat like, let's chat. Yeah. And James reached out. He's like, this is, okay, like this is crazy. We're, you know, okay, let's, let's try to move really quickly here. Like in all transparency, there's some candidates like that are super, super final. And it was like the next day I had a call with Brian, our amazing recruiter. And he, and so we chatted with him and that went well. and that was on like Wednesday. And then Friday I talked with Jamie, our CEO. And Brian got back in touch with me was like, hey, can we fly you out on Tuesday to San Francisco to like meet the team.

And so I flew out on Tuesday had six interviews, like in-person interviews that day with a bunch of folks on the team came home on Wednesday had a chat with Jamie on Thursday and had an offer on Friday. So like what would be your advice to folks searching man right now in this market? I mean, is it feasible to do that with every company you submit to me? What are your, what's kind of your overall strategy or two cents for folks? Yeah. Like honestly, I know like this particular implementation of this strategy is not necessarily accessible to everybody or or right for every role. But the approach I guarantee is is is up for grabs by anybody who wants to do it.

And it's really the idea of you can it's quality over quantity. And as it as far as my experience goes, quality of quantity and for what specifically in terms of your desire to have that job at that company with those people. Yes. It's having been on the hiring end. It's clear as day when somebody has put an Iota of effort into understanding the company and the role, the history, its culture versus somebody who is blasting out generic application. Now they could be good cover letters and good resumes. But they're not tailored and they certainly don't show a specific excitement about this specific company for whatever, for whatever reason.

And now look at this like with enough candidates, you will almost always have some that have put in the work. They will always blow out those who haven't. And so it's almost like it's why even bother if you're not going to put forth the effort to describe what it is about this company and this role that really resonates with you. And why you think you're excited about it and why you be good at it. And so like this, like what I've done here was effectively like find something I got really excited about. I did, I dove as deep as I could into the history of the company, the history of the founders.

Yeah. I understood that I watched videos to kind of get their like vibe. How do they talk about things? How do they think about things? Because this strategy is like, in my opinion, against everything what most people do. Most people like spray and prey and you're over here like researching strategy and where the company's been and going. I mean, I feel like it's a complete fundamental shift. It's what's worked for me. And I've had a lot of luck with this type of strategy in terms of getting in touch with just about anybody I want to get in touch with. And that's the key. Like at that point, it's still yours to, I mean, it's yours to lose at that point.

What you want or what I seek is usually some kind of entry point that let's me stand out a little bit, it's differentiates me a little bit. And the way to do that by somebody who's hiring is to show a genuine excitement about the role that they're trying to fill. They're trying to accomplish something in their company. And they have a certain worldview and the founders have certain like values and perspectives. And if you can internalize those and you align with those, you can then just put yourself forward directly as a very authentic person who's interested about this, who's put in the work to understand the background of the company.

And as a founder or as a hiring manager, that gets you really like pumped up about that person. Now you might not get through the interviews. You might not even get an interview like that. That happens too because they're like, this is fantastic. We love this. Like there are literally though like we have 15 other people in the hop right now. Right. And yeah, exactly. And so like and like keep trying or the people in the hop are like truly exceptional. Like you know, I'm not not to say that I'm necessarily a better candidate than anybody else. But I think you showed you're being different.

Right. I would argue the other candidates probably submitted the resume like normal semideral LinkedIn profile. And then it was kind of a gradual conversation. And I feel like right now in this market, you have to do something different to really stand out. But like you said, you can do something different and may not work. But in this market, everyone's just blasting. And I feel like if you can slow down and be more specific, I think you're really going to knock down more doors than not. Yeah. I think if I if I distill it, it's really about identifying the right person at the company from whom you want attention.

It's then about doing the leg work to understand what would potentially resonate with that person and then to send them a message about that. And what you're looking for is a response and a positive response. Yeah. Absolutely. And from there, that is your new entry point. Yeah. And whether that's like maybe they're not hiring right now. Maybe maybe they are. But that would be your your your way to get in and at least at the very minimum, I suppose what I'm trying to do is guarantee that my application gets a very good human look. Yeah. I guess that's it. And it's like, if I can guarantee that, then I've done my best.

And if I've put towards what I think is a really strong, good application, and it doesn't get accepted. And that's happened for sure. I'm totally at peace with that. Mm hmm. I'm like, great. In fact, I if I put together that application and it was in it was wrong and they hired me just because of like the the hustle or whatever, that wouldn't be good because what I'm putting in the application is my actual authentic thoughts about like my ability to contribute in that capacity. And so if I put together my honest to God, best effort, authentic self application, and I can guarantee that the right person has looked at that.

That that's all that's all you can do. 100%. Real quick, since we've already already times already flown by news, what happened? We're going to have to get you in for part two for sure. Talk about taking on a role that's new to you and kind of imposter syndrome and how you've overcome it so far. Yeah, that's happened a couple times in in my career. The first time, well, the first time was when I got I was a QA tester and I got our our our we no longer had our application developers and my boss asked me if I could develop the application. And I said, yeah, so imposter syndrome number one.

The second time it happened was when I applied to buffer as an iOS engineer and got offered a role as an Android engineer, that scared the bejesus out of me. I said, I said yes to that too. Everything that's really scary, I found you got to say yes to imposter syndrome number two with that. Then going from an engineer to a PM big time big time, because that role is that role is so ambiguous and gnarly. So huge imposter syndrome there. And then now going from product into into DX, it's the same thing. And so the imposter syndrome is is very real, but it's surmountable.

And the way that I try to tackle that challenge is that as long as I am feeling uncomfortable or have outstanding questions about some of the fundamentals of this role, I will just continually research seek out new information. And I will I will I realize I have to put in additional effort to learn by whatever means necessary. And again, this goes back to figuring out how to reach out to people. The most valuable thing that I've ever done for that by far and in every rule was to reach out to people who I admired in that space who looked like they were doing well, who I kind of wanted to emulate and ask for their help.

Okay. And the way that you ask for their help depends on the person. Yeah. It's some people like get a million of these a day. Some people you'll have to research a lot so that your email stands out. Some people are just happy to help everybody who emails them. But that was the way and so many people were willing to talk to me. It was crazy. When I first became a PM, I emailed I was terrified of this role. I felt like I had the soul for it, but like did not have the skills. Yeah. And and I emailed a dozen product leaders that I thought like we're doing a really great job.

And about half of them got back to me. And one of them was Kevin Wheel who was head of Instagram, head of product at Instagram called like who am I? He called me on the phone. You serious. I emailed him and he didn't email me back. He called me on the phone because he was in the car and I would really be like we had a chat. And I couldn't believe my luck. And I also I also realized how helpful so many people who are great at their jobs want to be for others who also want to be great at their jobs. Yes. So you can lean into that.

And I did and that's how I overcome it. And so I know with DX, I've reached out to Lee Robert Vercell, remaining at open AI. I am just trying to be a sponge, but I got to put myself in that position. And and I got to seek out that help. I love it. That's awesome. That's awesome. That's so cool. Yeah. Well, we'll get you on part two, man, for sure. Last question, if you may. And just any last words of wisdom advice for folks on the job search right now. Yeah, I feel like people are I feel like the biggest challenge people face that they might not even realize is that most people are highly self limiting.

And what I mean is what I mean is that if you if you're if your dad was a doctor, you know that the path to becoming a doctor, you're not limited. Like that that's within your scope of possibilities. Right. You you can see that if you grew up in a ghetto or very poor. And like that is there that that is there is no possibility of becoming a doctor. That's you wouldn't know the first thing to do. Right. From a from a child onward. And so I think people are self limiting. And I think if you put yourself out there, you'll realize that that limit that you have is actually fixed above your head and the higher you go, the higher it goes, which ultimately means like there is there is no limit to there is no limit to what you want or what you're able to do and the value you're able to provide.

If that's what you want to do, you'd be very surprised that your own ability to rise to the occasion. I love that. That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, Tom, thank you my friend. I appreciate for those of you tuned in. I'm glad you did. I hope you enjoyed it today. Go connect with Tom and Tom. Thank you my friend. I appreciate it. You all you all have a great one. We'll see you all tomorrow morning. 9 30 am central with unicorn finders. Have a great Wednesday. Peace. Thanks all. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful because you know why.

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