why everyone in tech is burnt out w/ eng leader, ryan burgess

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auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

different one it's it's been in the CH this one's actually all in the chest it's not nothing in the head it's actually all in the chest it's been a very weird we've had it for like three weeks newborn life chest cold yeah yeah it's it's BR man that's that's rough it just it makes everything harder yeah it makes everything harder good morning or yeah good morning still we're getting close to lunchtime this is a special West Coast Edition thank for all my West Coast friends they're always like hey uh that's too early can we please do later I said absolutely this is a special West

Coast Edition excited to hang out it's been a minute it's been about I think I think it's been a year since we CAU I think it was render last year the last time we podcasted together oh man is it no I hope that's not but you might be right on that and that's if anything we've only podcasted once since then that's it so this this was due this was due yeah um please say hey we'd love to hear from you LinkedIn crapped out on me yesterday on the live so um I want to make sure we're getting the comments on LinkedIn I haven't got notification

that we're on live yet with YouTube so let me um all right I got the I got the notification we're live on YouTube now let me check LinkedIn real quick before we start yapping it up all right I got the notification we're live but I want to see if comments are coming in it's gonna suck if comments are out again because I had to transition everybody over to YouTube yesterday um please say hey if you are tuning in from LinkedIn say hey would love to hear from you oh I forgot to send out my text message I'm so excited to talk to Ryan this morning

I'm just forgetting how to do everything this morning man it's not morning you just said like you're like ah it's not morning yeah it's not yeah yeah yeah it's a little out of my routine I feel a little weird I've already had breakfast I usually do these things fasting and I've had breakfast I'm like I want take a nap now um all right so we're gonna go live we're just we'll just get after good morning uh welcome to guidance counselor 2.0 if you're tuning in you're like what the heck is guidance counselor 2.0 this is a networking platform right probably like well why is there

a speaker here Taylor um so I I say this I've started to say this now I don't mean this at all to the speakers and speaker I bring in understands it the speaker is secondary to what this thing is right this is a place where what I realize all right cool we got comments this morning on link then what what up Trey um what I've realized is that is that when it comes to networking one it's hard two it not many not many people facilitate a place to network uh and three you usually kind of just need an excuse to network with somebody right like

like you know Ryan you know I don't forgot how you and I recently got connected but it was something and I just shot you a DM and it was like a mutual connection right so what so what I want to be what I want this show to be is just a networking platform where you can message somebody like hey you know you Ricardo can message Trey and be like yo Trey saw you on guidance CER 2.0 this morning good morning hope you had a great you know hope you enjoyed the episode right because what I want is is is I've been doing this for four

years now four years of doing this live show and if you network with every single guest like Sho Sho Ryan a DM um if you if you network with every single guest every single attendee that's that's tuned in uh you'll be very happy happy um with where you're at from a networking perspective and so that's what I want to do I want to provide a vehicle for you to network off the back of me so um few things where we dive in uh want to give first shout out to gaio obviously if you need talent let us know shoot me DM would love to help

especially in this time right now listen if more than anything else we'll just save you a bunch of time sifting through rumes let's just be honest there's a ton of rums being submitted out there um endorsed AI I'm doing a little work for them on the side um endorsed AI so when you submit your resume on the job search there's no way for a recruiter or a hiring manager to sort other than timestamps either first in or or last in right what endorsed AI does is indorsed AI you use it you integrate it with your ATS and it sorts the profiles based off a criteria

you plug in before you open the job up and it uses AI to scan the resumes and Bubbles up the most applicable ones to the very top so check them out if you're in a hiring C or a Tac highly check out endorse AI tell them tell them I sent you um want to give a shout out uh to for two more updates uh one Kelly Von and I are launching something called the friend zone.

LOL uh it is a community for job Seekers every time Kelly and I speak at conferences it goes up really well so we said why don't we just build a community around it so it's going to be great um and then also too this applies to Ryan I I started a tech dad's group first first virtual Meetup is September 6th go join I don't know what I'm doing all I know is talking to guys like Ryan we all we all deal with the same [ __ ] so I want to talk about it in a group and see how we can help each other I've

LIF each other so we have 185 dads already signed up uh for the newsletter and I have 65 dads rsvped for the first meet up in about three four weeks uh so please go uh go sign up and finally if you do want to get live updates when I go live with guests shoot me a text shoot live to 615 23556 this is actually my number it's my second number so feel free to shoot me a text we love to help you and again a few more people tune in Ricardo Brian Chris Nick it's great to see y'all this morning all right so so great

I'm excited about this so Ryan tweeted something out last week Christine it's good to see you Ryan tweeted out something last week and was like Ryan what was what was the Tweet what was the Tweet oh man you're putting me on a spot to remember my own tweets um I think I I can kind of remember the gist of it too it was you know is it just me or is everyone burning out in Tech something like that yes and I have seen that talking to a lot of people so of course I slid into Ryan's D said yo we should talk about now we're

here so there we go so before we dive into this topic about talking about burnout Ryan give a quick background about who you are what you do uh for the people uh who may not follow front and happy hour uh or fan of Netflix yeah uh so I'm Ryan Burgess uh I've been a software engineer for many many years moved into management for the past I guess I think it's been over 10 years uh but I was last at Netflix for eight and a half years leading various engineering teams uh mostly frontend UI oriented but some backend teams as well uh and yeah that's what

I've been doing uh I run the frontend Happy Hour podcast which does a lot of talking about front end and Tech and careers Taylor's been on there a few times which has been awesome uh and yeah so just that podcast has been going on for years and right now I'm actually currently on a break I've taken some time off I just you know after being at Netflix for eight and a half years I was like you know what I could use a break and so I've spent some time just kind of hanging out with my kids doing stuff around outside all all just all fun

stuff it's been really good and just you know kind of goes nicely with this podcast episode uh on burnout so I'm I'm excited for this conversation as well me too man me too all right so talk about the origin of your Tweet what have you been seeing why did you tweet that was it one particular person was it a group was it a bunch of conversations you've been having I'm kind of curious what prompted that yeah good question I think it's always interesting to kind of understand like what stems from those things and I think it's just been this like constant vibe that I have

not seen burnout has been prevalent all the time you know people EB and flow through burnout but I feel like in the past year two three I don't know pandemic really screwed up things in general seriously seriously I I I talked to a lot of people obviously uh in Tech worked with a lot of people at Netflix um but just all various companies mostly in the Bay Area but outside of that as well talking with different people and people just aren't enjoying their jobs like they're very tired they're not like liking a lot of aspects whether it be their manager their work they're doing they

don't feel there's impact just I'm hearing a lot of these things more than ever right like this just wasn't like a normal thing and it feels like people are just suffering through it right now and not to me was a signal um even a lot of the responses I was getting was you know pretty heavily like yep feeling it and here's why or all these types of things there was very few people who were like no man it's just you there was a couple of those um but it seemed to be the same type of person saying that so maybe there's you know maybe they're

just thriving and they're trolling they're trolling probably just trolling which is fine I'm like I hope you aren't burning out I know good that' be great that'd be great I hope that for you you know I I think man there's so many different directions we could take this what was some cons do you remember any consistent themes or answers um what people were saying I think it makes a ton of sense the biggest one I think is running lean um I think that's becoming a big thing uh with companies right now is we're seeing all these layoffs in Tech and so companies are not slowing

down they're they're cutting a lot of people but they're not slowing down in areas and so that puts more workload on the people that are still there it's like congrats you get to keep your job uh and here's more work or you know it just kind of falls on you and you may not even realize sometimes too it's not like well here's you know 80% more work it just starts to incrementally compile so there's that I think um a balance of not having work life balance is coming into play too uh I think the pandemic did this for a lot of folks too was just

about to bring this up yeah go ahead go ahead I I think there's a few factors a lot of companies were remote before the pandemic don't get me wrong but a lot of companies have started to do this like hybrid or or fully remote or all these different things which there's a lot of benefits to that but what a lot of people are finding is they're not shutting off as much and I think the problem is is even if you try and set those boundaries and say like I'm done at 5 o' uh you know that's my cut off time there'll be one or two

meetings that pop up well yeah know it's just the one meeting or you know oh someone's messaging you on slack it's just the one message and these things keep piling up and piling up and piling up and people are getting exhausted they're just not getting the breaks they need and I'm not saying you need to you know do what I did just quit and you know go completely not working but you need breaks you need micro breaks you need these disconnects you can you know people are having troubles they're working in their home I mean some people I work with were like working in their

bedroom right and and so you're literally like not leaving your room it's crazy know I know yeah kie so I I do agree with that so so yeah let's talk about the pandemic real quick what what I think would happen and I'm just talking about for me right let's talk about just with me as a recruiter is as a traditional agency recruiter in the office every day for nine years at that point in my yeah nine years at that point of my career basically I went home and what I realized is I had I when I went to go work from home I realized I

had three essentially three hours to make up hour that I wasn't driving to work an hour I wasn't driving home from work and an hour that I would traditionally take for lunch right so if you think about it right and and this is this is what's crazy I always say like I don't know how I got anything done in the office because I would I would get into the office around 8 8:30 after driving an hour sometimes an hour and a half dependent on traffic in Nashville by the way not San Francisco in Nashville then what I would do is I would get to it

would be 11 and essentially at 11 I would leave for lunch which would be a total of two hours right so I'd be in the office for three hours then i' leave at 11: I'd be gone for two hours right drive time and then obviously eating then back in the office then I would leave around like 4:35 so it's like but all that was gone and so I had all this time so then what did I do I I I made myself busy right I made myself busy with all that time and I think what happened is is we all did that and we haven't

separated ourselves like out of that yet it has been a vicious Vortex interesting he your thoughts on that well and even I mean okay right I love the where you headed with that too is like because I had very similar things um the commute you know going back and forth I actually loved my commute uh I was in San Francisco going to locato which people would be like that's why why would you love your commute well we had a shuttle too that would take us and what I really loved about it was it started and ended my day and and it truly truly did so

this is pre pandemic where I would take the shuttle and you know work a bit on my laptop get you know some fire off some emails uh answer respond whatever and same thing going home I would be doing that but the nice thing as well is it was a common uh just a culture thing built into Netflix is that the shuttles all kind of left around four o'clock and so people couldn't really fill that time with meetings like you're like oh well so and so won't be here and so it just kind of became this Norm that like 4: 4:30 there wasn't going to be

that was kind of the cut off for meetings and I think that was just really cool because it kind of sets that tone for everybody so so let's go back to the like Taylor's now working three extra hours well thanks Taylor you just sent me extra messages you sent me you know some document to read you set up time on my calendar so even if I try and keep that boundary you're filling it with more and it's you know it might just be a single slack message that you send me but that compiles when you have everybody doing that and I I honestly think that

those little things have been building up where people that break is not happening um and I think that there's common misconceptions about burnout too that it's all just like too many work hours like I I don't think that's fully it but in this case that might be it you're just trying to do too much it's interesting Katie just Dr dropped in here um uh going from working to suddenly not working after 15 years in the office on top of being a mother I went through an identity crisis of who I am without work is the first time I've slowed down and had time to evaluate

my priorities Katie I'm glad you brought this up Ryan talk about this as a guy who's worked at Fang the the you know for eight or nine years and then finally has a break I mean yeah you know I would say you've probably identified being a Netflix employee for the last I I I am I am Netflix right maybe not but like no that was who you I mean you're I mean dude you're all over this you're all over place all over social like you're Ryan Burgess you're the engineering leader from Netflix and then now you don't have that yeah it it it does does

feel weird because it it does unfortunately I think it is an unfortunate thing where it gets caught up in your identity a bit um and I don't think it's bad I think there's benefits to that too and you're right Taylor like being there for you know almost nine years that i' I'd done a lot while I was there and you know spent a lot of time in the community and doing that and so people yeah recognize that or having things like fun and happy hour the amount of times Taylor like you know you talk about ATS the amount of times that front and happy hour

was referenced for why people wanted to go work at Netflix was super awesome to hear that I love that um but that was happening where people like or they people would drop my name and like recruiters would laugh at this like they thought it was kind of funny they're like if they didn't know me they're like who is this like in internally um and so it does get kind of caught up in your identity and so yeah taking that break where you're like I'm not working and you know I've worked for as an software engineer I was I don't know 10 15 years then went

into management so I've been doing this a really long time and so when you just kind of put the brakes on and it could just be for a second um it does feel like what do I do now and then everyone asks to what what's what are you doing next I mean I asked you backstage I was like bro what are you doing exactly and it's it's like it's interesting because it's it's a great question um you know I've had job offers which is cool too and I'm like nope taking a break like you know Ser trying to hold myself accountable to this of actually

just giving myself some space to kind of explore different things but yeah I agree with that comment about the identity it is tough and so I think that one thing I would love to see is becoming a little more normalized where you can just literally say like oh yeah I'm G to take like a year off or I'm G to take some a few months or whatever it may be yeah just just to be like and enjoy that yeah I think there's again so many thoughts I keep saying that because this is just such a important topic right now you know like I you know

I I'll give a shout out to Ken wheeler right like I mean like Ken's content is like you know kind of crazy family content right like I don't know Ken from his software stuff online I know stuff from his family stuff right and it's I just think it's an interesting thing because I feel like just with the way us is structured and I don't want to go too down this rabbit hole but it's like it's always work right and I feel that I feel that the family side it's actually more important and we put work on a pedestal more than being a family man or

a family woman or having a healthy family right right so I think that's kind of interesting where I also think too where do you where do you think this is all gonna go right because like if you think about it because I you know I think I think we're going to come to a really interesting point slash head in the next five 10 years because what I'm seeing is the idea of a full-time salary job is not safe anymore like I think the last two years have completely when I started recruiting back in 2011 everyone was like I'm never taking contract it's not safe now

everyone's like I love I I'll take a contract job so there's like a huge mentality shift with that everybody's burn out you know you have these memes that I'm sure you've seen like the 20-year Microsoft exec goes to be a goose farmer right on LinkedIn those me you know and stuff like that you know everybody in Tech talks about owning a farm or working on a farm where do you I I don't know I just feel like in the next five 10 years I think I I think we could be I think Cubbies could be for an interesting Awakening in the next five 10 years

you know I part of me is like agrees and then part of me is like it may not change like you know what I mean true you're always going to find I mean you're you're always hiring people right like in helping I hired a ton of people there's always really great people out there who are wanting to do the job and if it's unfortunate like companies don't really care too much like you are replaceable everyone's replaceable and and that's not bad but it's I don't know they'll just find someone else right you know and I think that I don't like saying that but I think

that's the case I think what you will see is there will be those people who've been like I've been in tech for 20 years I'm going to go be a goose farmer and they go they've kind of like I want something different you know I just want some change I want something uniquely different or hey I I love painting and I'm gonna go just paint right like it's it's kind of like you want to just have some sort of different Outlet or whatever and that's awesome like that to me is really cool to see but yeah I don't I I agree with you I think

companies should actually put more value or stock in this and it's I think part of it is probably really hard to measure but I actually think that the performance of their employees is going to be so much stronger like when people actually have those breaks and yeah we all have vacation and stuff like that but it's I don't know it doesn't seem to be the same like I think that there are these longer breaks where yeah like where they could say like you have two months three months off I don't know but like go go just kind of think and be and to me one

thing I've noticed quickly too within the first like few months of me being off like I remember feeling like wow I can go back to my job and probably be 10x more not like do more but like be just more thoughtful and yeah to me that that's like really powerful like just to have that but how do you measure that right well and and it's and it's interesting interesting you talked about brain space because I definitely want to get to this us talking backstage about this you know one thing one thing I've really tried to do through counseling therapy whatever you want to call it

is you know I I've told my counselor I said I feel like I feel like I've had my foot to the gas for 13 years and there's nothing wrong with that but but I want to try to have some balance right I want to try to have some balance um especially now having two kids I think going from one to two is a lot harder than going from 0 to one just for the record yes um no no one talks about that at least nobody did that I followed one to two is a lot harder um for me it's trying to work in it's trying

to not busy every single 15 minute block in my calendar right and to try to give my brain space because what because you said backstage and I really resonate with is and and and again it's one of the things I want to talk to the dad's group about is when you get to the end of the day I feel like I have no patience for my family at the end of the day yep and I feel like the days that I pull back with work I do so it's this kind of this like really crazy game where it's like you don't want to pull too

far back at work where you're unproductive and like you get fired I'm not saying that but it's this like game where it's like I have to have the mental capacity to be present with my family from five to eight I mean even I mean listen I mean I'm not being honest my my wife said the other she goes she goes I don't get it she goes you get so frustrated at the end of the day and she was like you're at work from 8 to five like you're not even around in the house and it's like for me I I just my brain just gets

exhausted y by the end of the day and creating that space is so important so I'm wondering if a you've dealt with that and B how you've kind of balanced that in your career oh man that resonates so much um for me like there was times working I don't know if I realized it but I realize it more now too is that like yeah it would just get short like I mean kids kids are hard right like yeah kids are all parents you make mistakes or whatever like but like I would snap at my kids or just be that's enough kind of thing and oh

yeah to me was like I had such a short fuse on that where and it was just because you're you're just tired right like you're constant tired and you're like I don't want to deal with one more thing and you know by the end of that day so I kind of see that for sure um and now I feel like I show up so much better like it's just like I have obviously not working but it's like I think when you just I even find that now where I've spent a lot of time with my kids like this summer like they were you know obviously

not in school and you know obviously some things like camps and stuff like that but I spent more time with them and I re realized that even just taking like 20 minutes to myself an hour whatever it looked like just to get a breather from everybody was so powerful like you're not you know and so I think that you don't need to quit your job to have this space like there are ways like you said Taylor don't fill that 15 minutes it's so easy to do um but like go sit outside go for a walk and like it's so easy to say and I'm I

honestly hard to do it's hard to do my wife even yesterday I was like you want to go take a walk I go no and she kind of looked at me I go okay yes I I love that she that was so good though is that accountability like you almost need it's like going to work out right like a lot of people be like I need a workout buddy because like that I mean it's nobody's like you know what's awesome I you know I got all these things to do but I should go work out you're gonna feel better for doing it but it's hard

to do it and actually do that and I'm sure going for that walk you probably felt better after oh yeah 100% 100% um so there there there is there is a tip slash trick that I want to share that I recently just did is like and I posted it to Twitter it got some attention of like my crazy calendar I don't know if you saw that tweet for mine it was like all these colors it was like my entire week and people like what is that so there so there's a Creator I follow his name is JT Barnett he's out of La he's he's a

he's a fantastic like lifestyle Creator but he also runs his own Tik Tock uh agency where like if you need to find creatives he'll help you find them right so he actually what he did I thought was brilliant is he said so everybody has like their personal calendar their work calendar he goes and I create a third calendar and the third calendar lists everything that I do in a day that I want to do in a day my ideal day and he goes then what I do is I overlay it with my other calendars and I time block my day and I was like man

that's brilliant because I was leaving my calendar really open I was like I'm doing all this stuff I need to like make sure but I also feel like I'm missing stuff so I did it and I will tell you this like I mean like it's as granular as like literally if if you didn't see the it's like 5:30 Taylor wake up feed baby bottle 6: to 6:30 shower get ready for work 6:30 to 7 pack AR's lunch make sure you take your vitamins 7 to 7:30 get get Ari out the door edit your Vlog drop Ari off to school post schedule content like I mean

it is by every 30 minute block and what that's done for me is I also schedule open blocks and so what it's done is either if I do have stuff I need to do I can fill it in the open blocks or I can just keep an open blocks open blocks for me to maybe breathe for a second and so if you are struggling with giving yourself I would recommend this calendar hack it's really helped me a ton but uh but Ryan I didn't know if you had anything else just from a from a hack perspective to give people that mental space yeah I mean

I agree like I started doing that too even while I was at Netflix was just starting to throw like time blocks like unfortunately I don't know that I was doing it for you know taking a walk or something and and you should like that exactly I also think companies are benefiting from it too is like you going out and because like you're you're still thinking about work right but it's like you're taking a step away you're not getting well turn off your notifications on your phone while you're walking too but you're not getting you know slack messages that are interrupting that thought and I think

it's really healthy to have that but I would block time for me to actually do work right I was a leader I was in constant meetings and so if I left that block open on my calendar it would get filled and and you would go and so it was nice to have it even I'd block off an hour or two where I was like maybe I was hiring so I needed to look through you know candidates that I needed to hire or whatever it's like I needed space that was not in meetings and so I started doing that but it was still work right and

I think that what I needed to do better on was probably holding boundaries of like no no no that lunch break on my calendar is literally so I can eat lunch and have a break yeah and I think that you know getting back to that like pandemic piece of it too is that yeah everyone was kind of filling stuff more another thing that I think is interesting too is you you mentioned something kind of like you you're worried about missing something or missing out kind of thing that's a that's a thing obviously and meetings everyone's like oh well I should I be there and it's

like you know you know you don't need to be there kind of thing but if you were in office not virtual you were limited by the space of the room right like you had to be a little more thoughtful on that always room four is only open we only get four people so we can't bring the whole team in there exactly and and that was okay like I'll update the team after not a big deal kind of thing but now think about that oh yeah you you can everyone can say let's hit record we and then we'll send out the you know like 100 people

can join this meeting for that four-person room and then you know what we can share the whole like the video the recording so that anyone who missed it they can go watch that and stuff too and it's like so those things start adding up as well yep yep absolutely absolutely a few comments come in here Trey goes I do believe everyone's just exhausted of their life being sent around work I do agree I mean I think again I think Co all you really had was work yeah that's true that was it right um you know I had a kid during covid so it's like working

kid that that's all we did and and sanitize our groceries that was it yeah it was work kids sanitize groceries um uh definitely burn out of this job market I just don't know if I want to bother with this industry anymore the money's too good though to abandon it yeah I mean I you know I do I agree with that the econom is expensive that's a whole another conversation Trey I started journaling again after not doing it for a while it's a great way to get a lot of things I would agree with this I journaled for a bit the start of this year and

it allows you to realize that you're maybe not as stressed as you think you are right if you start journaling and writing down what why you think you're stressed and then you have two things you're like wait a minute I'm actually not that stressed it really bit yeah I like the journaling one I think that like that's something I wish I I've never really done that um but another thing that uh I want to call attention to that I thought was really cool for that is you might also notice like when things are not good right like yeah if you're unhappy for so long something

needs to change um the actually a few episodes ago on front end happy hour uh there was a few of us talking about like normalizing taking a break and so some of these things came up and the one woman who had taken I think had taken a year off Jennifer she had taken a year off and then is now back in the workforce so it was a really interesting perspective for me being on a break and then seeing her take the break and go back to work um but one thing she talked about was journaling and that was something that she practiced and she saw

the unhappiness like through her journal interesting whoa that's pretty cool too because being able to you know reflect on those things and yeah the money is it's a good call out and yes we can go down r on that but that's hard and is it is money the most important thing for your own happiness you need to kind of reflect on that I don't know that's a yeah I mean mean full transparency I mean I I've said this publicly this isn't this isn't you know anything new I mean I you know I'm 40% down with where I was at the height of the pandem or

height of the market right I mean you know I kind of stuck my flag in the software engineering space and I would say the hiring of the software engineers and over the last two years outside of recruiters software Engineers have been cut the worst and so you know it's it's definitely been an interesting time for for me and my wife and we've talked about priorities and what's important and you know you know why do we take the fancy trips who's watching is it really for us is it more conducive now to just go down the road and get a lak house for a weekend with

the family instead of going to Cabo like we used to right like what does that look like and so uh yeah I mean I do and I've talked to a lot of people about this about prior and it sounds like you've reprioritized a lot I mean I mean you even talked about eating like eating like can you talk about we talked about backstage about you ordering out and just kind of that grind of all the money you were spending while to just make money which we've talked my wife and I talked about that yeah absolutely yeah so what Taylor and I are talking about was

um you know obviously taking time off from work and not having a job is absolutely a privilege like it's something I've worked hard like to to do be able to afford and do that but one thing too is like I was saying to Taylor that I've reduced costs in many ways too like not not that I'm like oh I need to like you know live on the ramen diet and you know that but it's uh it's more in the fact that like my wife and I are both working in Tech and you know have just just busy like like what we've talked about the bandwidth

you're just tired at the end of the day and so I was Finding like you know we were just order food all the time Uber Eats caviar I guess caviar doesn't even exist anymore door Dash like it didn't matter it was just like let's order order food like just the thing is though is usually like I would enjoy eating out at certain restaurants and things like that this was more just like it got to like kind of a SLO where like oh what do we feel like eating I don't know just order it it's fine and so that was like I'm like cooking more I'm

like eating healthier foods like all those things which guess what helps with your mental health it's like shitty because it's harder and uh it it sucks but it does end up helping um and probably you know maybe prevent some of that burnout too but it's like or else it could add to it too because you have to like do that cooking and stuff but I think being able to cut things out of your life that you're like why am I even paying for that or do I does it actually bring me joy like if I go buy a you know brand new Porsche like is

is that bringing me joy it might but is it and you know things like that yeah I think and Todd comes in here I've had to you the same thing make more stuff at home not order out yeah yeah 100% 100% I think another thing too my wife and I were recently talking about this with child care with now having our second and and getting a nanny and like what does that look like and it's like Jackie literally was like if if I want because you know she she does commercial for photography and she was like if I wanted to double down on commercial photography

she goes I would literally spend she goes so where I'm at now she goes if I were to double down and get twice the amount of business where I'm at now she goes basically almost twice the amount of business would literally just the that other extra bout in the business would have just go towards being having a full-time Nanny yep so she was like I would literally be working more just to get just to pay for Nanny she was like that makes no sense so again like we've had a lot of these conversations like like like where's the har like we're trying to find Harmony

right now I think that's the best way to say it like work Harmony life Harmony you know you know when to take off and and and you and I were talking about this backstage like I think that if you can't schedule a an hour lunch you can't schedule even trying to go to the bathroom and or trying try to at least get a 30 minute workout in during the day then you're too busy I and that may be a hot take I understand there's parts of the business where you got to Sprint and there I I get that but as a whole if you can't

take a little bit of time for yourself during a eight to five day like that I think you're too busy yeah I I don't disagree and I think getting back to like maybe on some of the burnout things that kind of cause that too is we've talked a lot about time you know and like they you're like just doing more in that Essence but like I like what you said about the lunch too and you know you mentioned like almost like a two-hour lunch because you had to like go go somewhere and yeah when I was working I would literally have to take two hour

lunches it would be 30- minute drive there an hour with the candidate and 30 minutes back we didn't we didn't question that no and and I think that those were natural breaks that you got too that you maybe didn't even realize was really a Break um but also like I missed some of those interactions too like where you're like oh I'm grabbing lunch with my team and we're like hanging out not I'm grabbing some food to run to a meeting or I'm sitting you know quickly trying to eat something and I I think those things bring joy into the work like balance too where it's

like just bonding in with your team or or the candidate that you're working with those things are meaningful and if you start to kind of get rid of that that sucks too and I think that a lot lot of these things add up to like what burnout is it's not so much just about always working it's like are you enjoying it are you like making an impact like are you know it's like is the work you're doing are you passionate about it is there impact those things if there's not then what's the point right yep 100% man as we wrap up Ryan anything uh anything

else I'm trying to think if there's any other topics on the burnout thing somebody goes I'd also recommend if you have an iPhone Crea a focus mode yeah yeah soft do not disturb yep 100% um totally agree with that and how do you how do you tackle being burnout feeling undervaluing position but still maintain the positive ad to show up for the job search oh that's a tough one too because like we didn't even talk about that Taylor but like you know if you're in this world right now you hate your job or it's just like you're needing that change it's like the there's not

a lot of roles out there that the market is a little bit weird still um so it's harder to find the roles and there's a lot of competition for them but I always think like interviewing or finding a job is a full-time job right so you're like I'm burnt out I know and I'm exhausted all these things and I gotta go find another job I gotta interview I got to show up my best like how I mean I I I will tell you this I I think if if if if you have the funds I would I would probably try to get out because I

think you're going to do yourself more harm showing up to interviews right now in this market like it's already competitive as hell Market to interview and if you're not even show up to your best self you're gonna have no chance now if you go Taylor I don't have the funds to be able to do that then I think you need to be time blocking and and for walks and lunch like get give yourself that mental space right that we were talking about because if you can't even give yourself mental space at work then like it's like it's going to be a problem so it's almost

like you're suggesting like you need to almost like kind of fix some of that like right now got to fix the right now burnout like like time block 30 minutes for a walk time block an hour for lunch time block so like you can't get meetings give start giving yourself and and and and and I will tell you this under in a position I totally understand that burn out in the position I would argue almost do you have these breaks in place on your calendar to where you can breathe because try that first right give yourself an hour hour and a half for lunch give

yourself a workout from like four o'clock on right give yourself those and let's see how you're feeling after 30 days a after 30 days if you still feel burned out and you still feel under undervalued again is a whole another thing then move on but if you're feeling burned out and you haven't put parameters in place to protect yourself I think start there first I like that I think that and I think starting small is probably a good piece of advice I mean I hear all these things and I'm like I would have discounted I'm like oh yeah whatever I can do that fine um

you know or my my Apple watch telling me I need to stand I'm like yeah shut like leave me alone but it's like those things are powerful like you just need to they really are the more I'm at this man the longer I'm in kind of this like sales recruiting Tech content I mean whatever like taking a break is huge I think you I think you end up doing better work too like it's it's so weird it's like those little like that hour break for lunch you might yes you're not productive at that time but it's like you are you're GNA show up better I

think I heard red somewhere so obviously it's true that like really people only need about four hours of like Focus deep work to be productive I I actually believe that and I think when you say it to focus it's like you're not getting messages on slack you're not on you're not on Twitter scrolling you're not on Tik Tok zoning out you're not watching a YouTube video you're not going to get a coffee I'm talking about four hours at the desk dialed the [ __ ] in do do people even get that say what do people even get that I don't think so I don't I

don't think so I I don't think so I tweeted this out a while back I said hey devs on average what percentage you hands on the keys if you're an IC what percentage that's so funny my my whoop just went off I'm so animated right now it says I've been walking during this podcast just FYI um uh but like basically it said I so I said what percentage are you hands on the keys you know what the average percentage was 25% I I believe it so out of an eight hour day that's two hours right right so you could arguably say you only have two

hours of productivity and you know this is a good call up for leaders too who manage these maybe I'm talking to myself but manage the you know engineering teams it's like how do you find space for the team like they will be better they don't need to be in meetings all the time they will get more [ __ ] done more quality just more meaningful work if they're actually able to do their job and for me I went into software engineering because I love building things well if I'm not getting to build things all the time and I'm stuck in meetings all you know all

day as a leader that's different but like as an IC it's like now I'm losing that passion I'm not doing this is not what I signed up for and it's like things like that that yeah how can you enjoy work if if it's not getting the passion if you're only getting 25% of what you love to do and 75% I don't know what the other 75% is but like maybe they do enjoy it but it it's just something to think about and I think we you and I can't tell people what to do like we're giving like little I don't know tidbits of like try

this that yeah it's it's so individual but I think individual the self-reflection the journaling the like taking stock talking with your spouse like you are tailor of like what's meaningful to me what are the important things and doing that is so different from anyone like someone might be like I want tons of money I don't care I want to make so much money think you know that's a they're going to have a different route and that's okay y 100% 100% yeah I put my phone in the other room I like that I like that a lot um cool this was great this was great um

anything else Ryan anything else have we have we I mean obviously we can talk about this forever but like is there anything else any pressing stuff right now feels like it's going to be you know going down another Rabbit Hole um I love the comments on like you know leaving leaving your phone room shutting off like uh or being do not disturb things like that I shut off notifications on everything um I don't think I have notifications on my phone maybe from like text message from my wife or phone call from the school that those types of things might pop up but yeah I I

I I turn off all push outside of text and email and email man oh yeah I turn that one up too of email now because all because my entire work is on social media so all the DMs I turn off there's no way there's no way just even if it's important you'll get to it eventually and it's but I think that constant Interruption is is a problem um yeah what else I think like you know we talked about working from home I mentioned seen people that they have to work in their bedrooms but like if you can somehow like have a space that is your

work space that's huge yeah um I've separated that you know early in the pandemic had like a space where I was like I don't visit that space unless I'm at work and and that felt really good well it's funny too I used to be pre- pandemic I used to be all about meetings give me all the meetings now I'm like give me no meetings it's funny how I've have how I've changed um you know I would say be mindful of meetings you know I would say there's nothing wrong with asking the manager like do I need to be here right like is there is there

specific importance for me to be here um Nick comes in here this is interesting I guess mainly for r or there points where you ever actually tell your team members to take a break I know I have when I was managing people yes um absolutely there's been many times that I'm like hey you should just take take the day or days plural when was the last time you took vacation I think it's very important I feel like I did a better job for others than I did myself that yeah right you know it's like I care about my team and what they're doing but even

like what is it you want to work on this Pro Project's wrapping up what's what's interesting to you on the next like also trying to find meaningful work for them right like obviously you can't do everything you know it's still a business of like what you need to do but like how do you Orient people's interests with the work and all that I think staying in tune with your team as a leader can absolutely help um and yes there's been times where I'm like how about you just take the day yeah oh same clear your calendar take that day like just enjoy the day like

it's sometimes you have to force people almost like where it's like get off need it need permission right I mean people really do need permission I mean I'll never forget render this last year where I hosted I had somebody come up to me like man I'm so glad you you um you get PE you suggest people to connect with each other to left or right of you because he goes I've wanted to do it but I feel we are doing it right and he goes you gave me permission to do it I was like I mean I love that but you don't need permission I

I love and honestly you know for the leaders out there setting an example is huge um right like if you're the one working all the time even if you say it I don't expect this of everybody else it doesn't matter it it's like you're you're you're sliding messages left right and Center you're but you're just setting that example and that like in order to strive to be there it's like oh I should work all the time too um and it's like it's it sucks it's what happens yeah y absolutely all right Ryan as we wrap up here uh a few kind of random questions I

haven't had you on the Pod for a bit so I forgot these so let's just go ahead and hit them again actually I have a new question I created and again for those of you tuned in thank you so much if you like this episode please share it um if you know some people in your network who need to hear it um obviously share it we'd love that go connect with Ryan he's fantastic obviously um so Ryan um my my first new question to wrap it up is uh what did you want to be when you grow up when you grew up in grade school

and do now H that's a good question I think there I you know I probably went through the variety of things um definitely wanted to be an artist and arti yeah and then I feel like my parents like that doesn't make any sense like you can't make money uh so it was like oh I'll be an architect cuz like that that's what you did uh yeah and so would I be good at that probably not I feel like especially an architect it's like I like more freedom and you know especially artwise it's like I don't want to have to follow strict I love architecture I

love all those things but I don't think I'd want to do it yeah that makes sense that makes sense I love it um so obviously uh I took this from your book right now uh from from the front end happy hour uh what's a fun piece of content you've watched or read recently oh man um it's a good question I watch a lot of like TV shows and things like that um I've been enjoying Apple TV recently there's been some really good shows on there and I'm blanking on the one it's it's a bit older it's a TV show um with Jake gyllenhal I think

it's a bit like older he he was like he's on trial like for murdering uh his like girlfriend that he's cheating on his wife with and everything like that and it's it's a really good story um I forget what the thing's called though I'm like blanking on it I should probably just look it up but it's is it presumed innocence yes thank you pres inocent yeah okay cool it was a really it just came out 2024 okay so maybe I'm thinking of something else that was older but this one's good this one's definitely good okay I didn't check that out I didn't check that out

cool um what's next for you ma'am this is a question I get lots Taylor I know that's why I want to ask you live what's next for you ma'am what's next um right now I'm enjoying the time and and I'm using that time to kind of think of what's next but present right now it's like I'm trying to do more things creative um and so I'm just kind of running with things that like I want to do on the side I've seen you do a lot more video work it looks good good yeah thanks man I'm I'm like things like that I'm enjoying because it's

like I've always loved photography so I'm taking a lot more photos it brings me joy um but video is something too that I've loved and just like spending more time like owning that like it just getting better and like sometimes putting it out there in public is awesome too because it's like you kind of just ship it and like try you're like oh I don't like that and you know get better at it and so I've that's something I've always done even the podcast it's like I it irks me if anyone goes and listens to the first episode but it was like I had no

idea what we were doing it was like let's start a podcast and right and figuring that out I love those types of things and so I'm using this time to just do that is like I'm like all right I'm gonna do a little more video and I'm trying different things and it's been fun yeah let me ask you this let me ask you this let me ask you a hard hard pressing question are you going to be back at work before the end of the year I don't think so no that's awesome um well partly actually it's probably a hard no um the reason why

I say that is because it was the was the end or start of December is when I officially was like I'm on my break um you know done last year and I was like I said I'm gonna give myself a year so I think that like in all reality nobody I'm not going to go find a job uh the middle of December I mean you can but I'm not to Sure cool I love that ma'am I love that well yall thank you again for tuning in we appreciate it um I'm off tomorrow I'll be back with just me myself and I Friday morning talk about

tactical practical things about the job search so see you Friday morning Ryan thank you my friend your gem stay on Sox can say you backstage yall have a great one we'll see youall Friday thanks important I feel like I did a better job for others than I did myself that yeah right you know it's like I care about my team and what they're doing but even like what is it you want to work on this Pro Project's wrapping up what's what's interesting to you on the next like also trying to find meaningful work for them right like obviously you can't do everything you know it's

still a business of like what you need to do but like how do you Orient people's interests with the work and all that I think staying in tune with your team as a leader can absolutely help um and yes there's been times where I'm like how about you just take the day yeah oh same clear your calendar take that day like just enjoy the day like it's sometimes you have to force people almost like where it's like get off need it need permission right I mean people really do need permission I mean I'll never forget render this last year where I hosted I had somebody

come up to me like man I'm so glad you you um you get PE you suggest people to connect with each other to left or right of you because he goes I've wanted to do it but I feel we are doing it right and he goes you gave me permission to do it I was like I mean I love that but you don't need permission I I love and honestly you know for the leaders out there setting an example is huge um right like if you're the one working all the time even if you say it I don't expect this of everybody else it doesn't

matter it it's like you're you're you're sliding messages left right and Center you're but you're just setting that example and that like in order to strive to be there it's like oh I should work all the time too um and it's like it's it sucks it's what happens yeah y absolutely all right Ryan as we wrap up here uh a few kind of random questions I haven't had you on the Pod for a bit so I forgot these so let's just go ahead and hit them again actually I have a new question I created and again for those of you tuned in thank you so

much if you like this episode please share it um if you know some people in your network who need to hear it um obviously share it we'd love that go connect with Ryan he's fantastic obviously um so Ryan um my my first new question to wrap it up is uh what did you want to be when you grow up when you grew up in grade school and do now H that's a good question I think there I you know I probably went through the variety of things um definitely wanted to be an artist and arti yeah and then I feel like my parents like that

doesn't make any sense like you can't make money uh so it was like oh I'll be an architect cuz like that that's what you did uh yeah and so would I be good at that probably not I feel like especially an architect it's like I like more freedom and you know especially artwise it's like I don't want to have to follow strict I love architecture I love all those things but I don't think I'd want to do it yeah that makes sense that makes sense I love it um so obviously uh I took this from your book right now uh from from the front end

happy hour uh what's a fun piece of content you've watched or read recently oh man um it's a good question I watch a lot of like TV shows and things like that um I've been enjoying Apple TV recently there's been some really good shows on there and I'm blanking on the one it's it's a bit older it's a TV show um with Jake gyllenhal I think it's a bit like older he he was like he's on trial like for murdering uh his like girlfriend that he's cheating on his wife with and everything like that and it's it's a really good story um I forget what

the thing's called though I'm like blanking on it I should probably just look it up but it's is it presumed innocence yes thank you pres inocent yeah okay cool it was a really it just came out 2024 okay so maybe I'm thinking of something else that was older but this one's good this one's definitely good okay I didn't check that out I didn't check that out cool um what's next for you ma'am this is a question I get lots Taylor I know that's why I want to ask you live what's next for you ma'am what's next um right now I'm enjoying the time and and

I'm using that time to kind of think of what's next but present right now it's like I'm trying to do more things creative um and so I'm just kind of running with things that like I want to do on the side I've seen you do a lot more video work it looks good good yeah thanks man I'm I'm like things like that I'm enjoying because it's like I've always loved photography so I'm taking a lot more photos it brings me joy um but video is something too that I've loved and just like spending more time like owning that like it just getting better and like

sometimes putting it out there in public is awesome too because it's like you kind of just ship it and like try you're like oh I don't like that and you know get better at it and so I've that's something I've always done even the podcast it's like I it irks me if anyone goes and listens to the first episode but it was like I had no idea what we were doing it was like let's start a podcast and right and figuring that out I love those types of things and so I'm using this time to just do that is like I'm like all right I'm

gonna do a little more video and I'm trying different things and it's been fun yeah let me ask you this let me ask you this let me ask you a hard hard pressing question are you going to be back at work before the end of the year I don't think so no that's awesome um well partly actually it's probably a hard no um the reason why I say that is because it was the was the end or start of December is when I officially was like I'm on my break um you know done last year and I was like I said I'm gonna give myself

a year so I think that like in all reality nobody I'm not going to go find a job uh the middle of December I mean you can but I'm not to Sure cool I love that ma'am I love that well yall thank you again for tuning in we appreciate it um I'm off tomorrow I'll be back with just me myself and I Friday morning talk about tactical practical things about the job search so see you Friday morning Ryan thank you my friend your gem stay on Sox can say you backstage yall have a great one we'll see youall Friday thanks