how to hire properly w/ brian holt, staff pm @ neon.tech

full transcript

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So let's get started Brian. Let's get the people where they want. Who are you? What do you do? Where have you been to? Because you're a little bit of a journey, man. And then we'll dive in. Yeah, yeah. God, where to start? So hi. I'm Brian. Very happy to be here. I was just telling that I just enjoy the vibes that he puts out on the internet. I'm usually kind of anti-social media, which is hilarious given the two of the two that they've worked at are social media companies. But I enjoy what is putting out here. So I was pretty excited when I got asked to come on.

I am a staff product manager at Neon.Tech, which is a serverless post-best company. I think it's pretty cool if you're looking for post-best stuff. I work on AI. I work on back-end developer services. I work on workflows, for sell, GitHub integrations, all that kind of fun stuff at Neon these days. My resume is long. Yeah. So we're talking about hiring. So let's set the stage. What have you done in the hiring space in your career? Because I said, I know you have an expansive career. Yeah. Well, I'm a college dropout. You go into Epic Web Conf, that's in Utah. I went to college in Utah as well.

And then I ended up kind of accidentally dropping out of college when I got my first job. So, man hiring back then was a strange time. Basically, if you had a pulse and you could identify a semicolon that could get you. And it's crazy if you could spell react, you get a job. Yeah, oh man, this was jQuery. You had to get the capitalization, right? But other than that, it's about the same thing. Yeah, you're good. Yeah. So, when people after like, how do you get your first step? I was like, I don't know, man. They just gave it to me because like I walked in and said hi, right?

So, don't, don't, like, carry much weight with my opinion here. So I did that. I went to another startup called Needle for a little bit. Yeah, college dropouts tonight. Jordan, absolutely. And then when I got to Reddit, that's when I kind of like, Reddit was such a small team. I was in point number 29 at Reddit. That's crazy. Yeah. No, like it's, it's an exercise in like firefighting. If really, but I was, I was a kid man. I was like 26 or something like that. And they're like, hey, you need to hire a bunch of people. And I don't know how to hire myself, let alone how to hire a bunch of other people.

And so I kind of just learned really quickly a lot of stuff about hiring. One of them I was observing in the earlier, which is just like making costing mistakes is way more like, and this is probably hard to hear from people online, but like it's way worse to hire someone that's like not a good fit than it is to like miss out on someone that's good, right? You'd rather actually go slower and be more cautious to make sure you get the right person. And so, like I learned a ton of these lessons. Like another lesson I learned really quickly was that it's really hard to get negative signal.

And when I say signal, these like positive signal, like this person would be really good fit here. And the negative signal is like, I'm a positive signal. It's just vibes, let's go where it's not. Vibes, okay, I like that. Like we're on the vibe era these days. So the negative vibes, the negative vibes are hard to catch because a lot of times it's just people being nervous. It's just people like, not like you didn't set up a good climate for them to come into. And like, there's lots of people that come in like are nervous and sheepish and then come in just like brush a job.

Yeah. So I really try and set it up so like, people have like this like garden to show off, like to to to emit all of their positive vibes. Like one good strategy I found for this over time is like, you give people several prompts instead of saying, like, hey, I want you to come in and do this thing. It's like, all right, here's three different things. Pick the one that's like on your level. So that helped me quite a bit to pick the right people, right? And like, and give people the best opportunity to shine. And like, certainly, I don't know if I can admit this one on stream, but I'm just going to.

So no one turned me in for this one. One of the best things that we did is like, right after we were done with our interview at Reddit, was like, hey, there's a bar downstairs. We're going to grab a beer. You are welcome to come. I will buy you a beer. I got lots and the negative vibes came out in the bar, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, Marie. I can see her as well. Yeah. So people would start admitting misogyny or even casual racism a little bit when we were just down having a beer. I got told by HR very soon after that. like you cannot take our candidates to bars.

You can't do that. Unfortunately, I had to stop. Okay. So I'm going to interrupt you because I think this is a whole another tangent here. But I do feel like it's so hard to judge a person during the interview process the way it is right now. Well, just just in general, not the way it is right now, just in general. Absolutely. Like you, like I said, you're looking for this positive signal that these people are like trying to admit out to you. Yeah. And, um, particularly like with all this like remote interviewing that you do now. And like, believe me, as you can see, I very much enjoy working from home.

I get to go like walk out and go see my son. But like, there's, there's something about like a handshake and looking somewhere in the eyes that like, it really does help that process, right? Like it's just that like, inherent judgment that you have. Yeah, that that I don't know. How do you okay, there's so many questions and you did some stuff in Netflix. So can you talk about you in Netflix too? So I got I got derailed. No dude, you're good. No, this is my love. I don't prep. There's no questions. It's just two dudes are guiding me out every morning. That's it. That's five.

So I was at Reddit for about two years. They moved me to San Francisco. Reddit, that's when like, like we've had three CEOs in like six months, like it was a wild time at Reddit. I got reached out to buy Netflix. I was like, yeah sure, I've heard of them. So that's when I joined Netflix. And kind of great time, really enjoyed the people I worked with. But the one thing I didn't really like the interview process was very much what you think of with like a fang interview process of like here is it's not like how many marbles can you fit in a stadium kind of bad.

I think that's the worst kind because it's just irrelevant. But it was very much like, here's a very difficult computer science question. Can you write a path-vagging algorithm in 45 minutes or something like that? Right. Which I didn't like, right? Like I did it okay in the interview because like I prepped for it. But at the end I was like, I don't think this chooses good engineers, right? Or maybe incidentally it chooses good engineers. One of the things that they asked me to do, they asked me to code in a Google Doc. And I was like, this makes no sense. No one codes in a Google Doc.

why was this any sort of signal for anybody? So I pushed pretty hard, at least from my section of the team, five large marbles. At least from my section of the team, we rewrote a good part of the interview process to a lot of these learnings that I got at Reddit, like let's give them multiple prompts. Let's let them use a goddamn code editor, Geez. Yeah, seriously. Let's let them Google things, Because everyone, every engineer does, so like half of engineering is just googling things correctly. Correct. And we do it now at neon, like half of like a lot of what good engineers do now is use AI and what they can use it really well.

Yeah. I mean, why wouldn't we let them in their interview process? It's crazy. Right. Yeah. So, and then we kind of refine the questions to be less like these trick questions and more towards like, hey, you have to do like a drop down that governs just two other drop downs. How do you make this like efficient and not jake? And like, cool. Because we actually need implement things like that in the front end, right? So there's so many things to unpack here. I don't have to only have time for you for like, again, like 22 minutes, which I feel like all of these things could probably be unpacked for hours at a time.

Let's start at the job seeker level right now. A lot of guys are like trying to find jobs. You've obviously hired a ton. What are just some signals, some vibes, people can do from the get go that you think really makes people stand down. At least that what you've seen and what you like to see. Yeah. It's big red flag. Talk about like some negative, uh, state bill that I get. If you walk in, you know, nothing about the company that you're, you're not crazy with, and they're crazy. Like I can't keep my interview in a lot, but damn. Um, you need to come in there.

You need to have some opinions about the product. Like, man, I should show this one that I did for cloud player forever. I don't know if I'm going to. Do you want opinions? Like you want people to push back maybe. Absolutely. I was like, I want you to tell me that this is bad. That means that you evaluated this and you said, like I have a better idea about this. I love that stuff. I absolutely love it. When I walked into my cloudflare interview, I walked in with a Google Doc that was probably like 10 pages long. That's like, here's everything that I found that I just don't like about your product.

Just docs to fix. Here I have some poll requests on your repos. And like honestly, it didn't take me long. I probably, I don't know, 45 minutes of just sitting there and playing with the product that they had me interviewing for. Yeah. Which is just like due diligence on my side, right? Make sure I wanna work on what they're doing, right? Yeah. But just like write a friction line. A friction line is literally just like writing down things that you think while you, like it's just stream of consciousness. Don't edit it and you just hand it to them. They loved, right? They absolutely loved that I did that for them.

Do you so I had a buddy my staff engineer at the job church right now. He messes me He goes dude look at this He goes I got an interview for a company because all I did was I demoed the product I think he did like a quick loom video and like it was like a What was it it was like a live streaming service a time into is like kids softball or baseball or something? It was like hey like this product blah blah blah. Do you like to see that like it kind of goes on I'm like using the product before you interview Man, if you ship me something, it's okay.

I built this with like one of Neons like niche features. Like I'm just going to triple myself to make sure that you get in the door to get to you. Yep. You heard of here. You heard of here. How do you, what are some other things maybe that you're seeing right now outside of not knowing the company? What are some other things you're seeing right now that people just really miss the mark that I think are pretty, pretty easy layups to you? Um, I mean, like the good and bad news of all this, of interviewing, process is what the opinions of the person is that's interviewing you when they walk out that door.

Like this is a very squishy imperfect process and you can come in and have like a really good interview but if the person doesn't like you, like I wish this wasn't true and I wish I could say like, well I'm above this but like I'll be real I'm just not right I have to interview too many people. Sure. So making it a conversation rather than just like this person lectures for five minutes this dispersion lectures for five minutes, that this just comes off really cold. Like a lot of this, what we're also evaluating is like, I have to spend a lot of time with you.

A lot more time than with my wife. Yeah, exactly. I would just call a spade a spade. I gotta spend more time with you than my wife. Exactly, right? And I don't necessarily need to be your bestie. In fact, I'm not even trying to hire my besties, but I do need to like, I guess is like the minimum bar there. So if you don't come in there and like, I don't know, have a little, you know, energy, basic small, yeah, energy small talk, like all the above, just like mentioned like, hey, we need to get like on the same wavelength together. We need to get on the same vibe together and have a chat, right?

So like, I try to make sure that the interviewer is doing a good amount of talking, talking about themselves, asking like, what's it going like? what are you working on? What are you like working on? What's your team? Like how are you doing with all this kind of stuff? Cause people love to talk about themselves, right? And they give them my own present company included. Yeah, absolutely. I got a question in here from Devon. In your opinion, when should front end developers start applying for jobs? I would say let's just take out front end, let's just do all developers. And Devon, if you want to expound this a little bit, just cause I'd love to know where you're coming from.

I have thoughts on this. But before I get Brian to answer this, expound this a little bit more and kind of where your thoughts are on that. And then we will come back to that. So if you have some questions on that. So Brian, let me ask you this. How have you cultivated in an interview? Because this is kind of going to the higher major side, right? Because again, I told you backstage, a lot of higher majors watch this is behind the scenes. What are your best recommendations for higher majors to develop a really kind of a safe place to really get the actual person out of the interview?

I mean, when they come into my actual interview, I just, I kind of give them like the same, like kind of three-minute feel of like, look, I'm looking for process. I'm not looking for answers, right? Ooh, I love that. So I want to hear how you're thinking about this, how you're breaking it down, what resources you're looking for, who you're talking to, because like that's the stuff's about. Like I'm not in, like, if I'm asking you too easy of questions, then like this doesn't make any sense, right? like what's, what they ask you it's stripe. You're the Google Maps PM and you want more small business owner engagement.

Yes. What's your process, right? That's a very PM-y type question for an interview process. Yeah. And like, I don't expect you at the end of this, like, cool. You've devised this perfect product spec that then allows Google Maps to go do this. Like, what I care about is like, your entire breakdown process, like putting this in a smaller milestones, like all those like PM kind of course skills, like what your product sense is of like, how am I trading off this versus the other thing? That's the stuff that tells me like, look, I don't know what you can do in 45 minutes. I care what you can do in like a quarter.

So it certainly helps to be a good idea, right? Like some of the total shit idea might have some questions, but it's not even that, right? Like if you come up with the shit idea, but with great process, I'll probably still hire you, to be honest with you. There you go. Yeah, I mean, listen, if you can break down, but if you have a bad idea and you can break down why it's a bad idea, I probably think that's even better because you have more thought process around it and can go to bat for it. Which is you. I try and tell people that it's okay to pause and think.

Yes, yes. Yes. Silence is a good thing, not a bad thing. That's usually pretty helpful. The other one is, I had to tuck my mind in for just a second. It'll come back to me. You're good. Yeah, I feel like a lot of people walk in interviews and they're like, I gotta have it all figured. I gotta just recite off everything, off the cuff. And you're saying, hey, listen, if you need a moment, scratch some ideas down on paper or whatever, you're cool with that. Yeah, Google it. Again, we're open internet open AI, like if you're reading it from chat should be T, I can tell.

Because I read a lot of chat. Please don't do that. Please don't do that. Yeah, sorry. The other thing is that like it's okay to contradict yourself, right? Like you can get down from the dentist pathway and realize like, oh, actually I have a better idea. By all means, let's let's drop the bad idea and follow the good idea. Like that's part of the process here. One of the things I'm curious to how do you So you've done a lot of hiring in Netflix. Obviously, you've very two hot companies. You've probably dealt with a ton of individuals, a ton of resumes. How can people separate themselves even just in the application phase?

Do you like people? Cause like I've had Kelly Vaughn on the show, she and I are dear friends. Like we've, she does a ton of hiring. We've kind of broken that down. And I'm always curious, especially guys and gals like yourself, how can somebody reach out to you How can somebody get to the top of the resume pile with outside of just a submission of a resume? Yeah, that's a good question. One, listen to Kelly over me. My first piece of the pie. Oh, it's great. Yeah, it's great. She's very smart. So if I get like a cold resume, it's hard. I actually don't know if I have really good advice for you.

I guess my best advice for just straight up resumes It's like, I need to be able to like tell Ata Glance in like four seconds. The most important things about you. Mark, say that, say that one more time. So I didn't be able to tell Ata Glance and like four seconds. The most, not just me saying that folks, people get so mad on social media. When I put it on that, it takes like six seconds. And everyone's like, that's not fair. You're being lazy. And it's like, no, I'm not. The resumes to get through. I only have like four seconds. If I spent any more than that, it would be my entire job.

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Actually, I maybe stated differently. Most of my candidates that I end up putting into the interview process aren't from res minutes. Where are they coming from? A lot of it we do from outreach in terms of just like we see you contributing to our repos, we see you contributing to our docs, we see you posting cool stuff on dev.2 on Twitter, We see you at conferences, we see you getting talked. If you're working neon into your stuff or my previous companies, we're going to reach out. But we've done a decent amount of hiring just that way. I also asked Kelly this too, because we talked about having a portfolio versus putting stuff out online.

I hate saying building publics, people think like, I've got to have a blog and all this stuff. No. you're speaking versus the portfolio and Kelly was like, I'm much rather look at because she was like I'm hiring an engineer that's like heavy API work. And she goes, I got to your LinkedIn and on your feature section on your LinkedIn, you have an API blog or an API post. She goes, I'm gonna go read that. So you're saying too, right there, kind of that social validation, the online building, the online posting is something that you really look at. Yeah, absolutely. Again, yeah, if I were hiring API people right now, so this is actually very upper post.

If you have like a, I don't know, a library for logging for Fastify JS, or if you have a long blog post about trade-offs of doing a GRPC versus something else, right? Like I'm into it. Like I'm gonna go read it. I'm very interested in kind of content like that. I am not looking to hire deaf famous people. Like that is a trap that some fire, hiring them to smile, I was like, oh, how many Twitter followers do you have? It's not a good metric for like there's plenty of developers that don't have any online presence that are amazing. And there's plenty of people have lots of followers that wouldn't be good fits your company.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. So here's one question I'm talking about. Heard if you meet 50% of the requirements for position then apply. What are your thoughts on this? I mean, I try and vague a five. There's probably a better term for that, but it is not before me. Yes. I guess perfect. Mike requirements so that it's like, doesn't seem like, you know, 10 rules. It's like, hey, here's like, someone that's gonna do well here would fit these like into these boxes, other boxes or something like that. So I do not like, if you go look at like a Microsoft post, it's like, they require two years of this and three years of this experience in five years of chat GPT.

So I generally kind of ignore requirements because for the most part you can get in there and they're like, oh, you, you know, this was for a staff position, but like we could definitely hire you at senior, so cool. Yeah, let's get you to the interview process. I kind of ignore requirements for the most part. Yeah, yeah. And you're not the first engineering leader I've spoken to us as that too. I think again, I think if you're, if you're in the ballpark, Davon, If you want a specific number, sure, 50%. Sure. Yeah, sounds good. It's a little bit of a sidebar, but I think it's a good highlight.

What's your story behind your journey into teaching front end masters? What inspired that path? I feel like Elliot's already kind of getting in. I feel like he's interviewing with you. I feel he's done some research. Hell yeah. I like that, right? And we were just talking about that. Let's keep this succinct. I met Mark at FluentConf 2012. Again, conference. Thank you, Dean. Yeah, at a conference. It was my first workshop at a conference. I walked out and gave it. I had no idea how I did. I did three frameworks that have Ember, Angular, and Backbone in 90 minutes. Like an entire workshop and all three of those, which is a terrible idea.

That's what I did. I met Mark, the CEO of Freedom Master's backstage. He's like, this is cool. I'm hiring other people around, like I'm getting other people on the platform come do this, do you want to come try? So that's and then now Mark is like one of my lifelong friends, I was really texting him yesterday. That's awesome. Oh, yeah, I get out there, right? Talk maybe about that. The importance of just getting out there right now. Obviously, we're all remote, most of us are remote. It's all about the importance of that handshake and just really getting out there. I mean, almost all of my relationships have come out of this like speaker circuit.

I don't know, it's not scalable for everyone to go try and do that. Like, I really enjoy public speaking, I enjoy teaching. But I think all of you are going to enjoy something. You can enjoy really, let's take open source contributor. I haven't contributed to open source over the years, but I talked to other developers, one that we just hired. And his entire career has come from just contributing to open source. And it could be really interesting that he loved. Yeah. Wow. Well, he's a core contributor, like a major framework now, which gives him a lot of cache. So that's true. I don't have, right?

Sure. So finding your overlap of what you're interested in, what you're driven to do, for me, that was public speaking and teaching. I would be a teacher if it paid better. That's how I love teaching. Finding that overlap between what can you excited about the industry and it keeps you working on stuff when you could be watching Netflix? gets you out there meeting people and encountering people in positive lights like you will you'll find your tribe essentially that way and like that network will then drive the rest of your career which is exactly what's happened to me like I got a job at Microsoft because Sarah Drieser reached out to me she's like you would be a good fit for this you should come you should come here there you go yeah I mean again I mean you and I were to check out React Miami backstage again shop, Gabe and Michelle and the crew.

I'm actually hanging out with Patrick Siever, GTI guy tomorrow for breakfast. He's in Nashville, but like Hank Taylor, prime example, who heads up marketing at Laravel now. He and I met five years ago and he and I've stayed in touch, brought him on to the show, find anything. I could hit up Hank. I email him all the time about his podcast. And I think just engaging with people, a lot of people put out a lot of content. And so even if you don't want to put anything out, literally I try to email, I pull actually a lot of my followers aren't even in tech, they're like in the D2C space, follow all these amazing marketers.

And if they ask on their email newsletter, hey, we'd love to hear your thoughts about this or hey, we'd love to hear your thoughts about the newsletter, I always email back. Because I think people generally want to build connections in today's world. Thoughts on that? Yeah, absolutely. Um, met like if there's some tech, like again, I'll talk about me on just cause format, but like if you love neon and you're interested in like, and if you're interested in work there, like hopped in the discord, right? Like hop in the discord, start chatting and start asking other people's questions. Yes. I watched that stuff like a hot like everybody.

Yeah. Yeah. Like you are, you're useful even before you even like knock on the door. Like it's, it's so easy for me to just say like, yeah, okay, this person's going to do well here. Yeah, so I mean, again, I bring it up all the time. I hired Jason Torres. I hired Jason Torres because he threw a two day virtual conference to raise a few thousand dollars for a buddy's friend, buddy's wife who got cancer unexpectedly. Like, yeah, like, I haven't done that, right? And he didn't have a job yet. But I saw him and I was like, once I got the budget to high, I was like, I'm hiring Jason.

Another example, Brianna Holmes, she runs marketing for render. I'm one of the render MC host, I've worked with Brianna for three, four years now. But I had the budget to go out higher, basically a right hand person. I needed somebody who complimented my skill sets. I'm a little weak in kind of traditional marketing activities, but I know what it's supposed to look like. So when hired Brianna, why? Because I was engaged with her, right? I worked with her. So again, like everybody I've hired, I've not had a resume. Humana on my team in Mexico, our master kind of community evangelist in Mexico. I met her at a conference, JSConf MX in Guadalajara.

I literally met her. I was hiring in Mexico. I hit up a few other conferences, I knew Mexico, so who do you know? Everybody pointed back to Humana. I had a 15-minute conversation with her, hired her. That's awesome. It's not hard. You just gotta get engaged. You just gotta get engaged. Those former referrals are everything. Everything. Brian, we're at time already. I knew this would happen. Any final words of wisdom for job seekers right now? I mean, this is, it's a really discouraging process. And like, I wish it was different, but it's a game of perseverance. I tell this to online, new job seekers, your performance and what they had for breakfast can be almost the same weight in a dream.

That's a whole other conversation. I totally agree that I think sometimes the more out of technical stuff you'll get the better. It's just, it's not a fair process and recognizing that you can walk out of interview, you could crush it and the person just didn't feel good that day and so that weight on their opinion of whether or not they're gonna hire you. Like you need to like learn during this process but not get discouraged. Like, and it's really, really hard there but just like keep your head up and in persevere. It's a numbers game. You gotta get out there. You gotta talk to a lot of people.

You gotta be smiling on every single call, right? And you'll get there. It's hard, but you'll get there. Absolutely, absolutely. All right, Brian, I have a bunch of kind of rapid fire when asked real quick. first off, if I were telling you tomorrow morning, you could not wake up and do anything in tech. What is the one hobby you would pursue for your job? I mean, I alluded to it earlier. I think I'd be a teacher. I really enjoy seeing the light bulb moment in people's eyes. And I like breaking down knowledge that I have into terms that someone that doesn't have the same knowledge can use to build the pieces and get to where I am.

I really love it. Absolutely. Second question. Is there anybody in the community want to give us some flowers to shout out to right now that you respect and Meyer? Oh man, we have another 30 minutes for this. I don't seriously. That's a good question. Fair last year. Yeah, let's keep going. I'm going to all come back to this one. Next question. Is there any tools, technologies, frameworks, your tinkering with, your team's tinkering with, and you're like, oh, this is pretty cool. I want to give a shout out to. So, you know, the one that I am focused on, you know, Frank, this might be my dual shout out plus technology I'm interested in.

So it's Tanner Lindsley from TANstack. Okay. It's this really amazing piece of technology. Like if you're building like next JS apps or remix apps, like TanSack's kind of the third option in those kind of space. Okay. And I'll give Tanner some flourishes from like the guy is hyper focused on building like really cool experiences and like not on just like making a ton of money, right? Like and I respect the hell out of that. Like I'm sure he could have sold out by now if he wanted to and he just never has. So TanSack, that's my shadow right now. I love it. Last question, the shows called guidance counselor 2.0, because we had guidance counselors in middle school, high school and college, but now as adults, we don't really have a guidance counselor turned to and asked for good general career advice.

That's why the shows call is what it is. What would be your biggest piece, if you go back in time and tell young Brian something, best piece of career advice you would tell him more to be? I learned this in business school, and I think I kind of intuitively got it, but when I went to business school, really like concretely understood this is I always thought like I need to have like this like five year like well later I'm gonna do this and then I'm gonna do this and I think that line of thinking is helpful as well so I think you do need to do that line of thinking but the way that they stated in my business school was always be on the first year of your five year plan and like that made a ton of sense to me of like rather than trying like because if you're hyper focused like I'm definitely gonna get there you'll miss a bunch of opportunities in the way because you'll get really cool opportunities in front of you that take you off in totally different directions, right?

Like I had no plans to be a PM ever, right? And in fact, I didn't like lots of my PMs, maybe hopefully they're not listening. But like I ended up in this space where I like I ended up in DevRel and then I ended up becoming a PM on BS Code. Like I could have never seen that coming, but like the fact that I was like, all right, well, this is the new place that we're pivoting, that that would have like de-stressed me, Levix, I was like, I need to be a VP of engineering. Like that's my goal as a youngster. Right. And now that I have all the gray hair, I'm much happier when I am, but I could have never predicted how I was gonna get here.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Any other people popped in your brain? Man, it's just really tempting for me to shout out my neon team, but I guess I'm gonna do it. Yeah, yeah. So David Gomes, he'll be a React Miami. So if you hit him, please hit him up. Pedro, Pedro's struggling singing last name, Figurado. Yaikub, I'm not going to translate. He's one of my Polish and I will not translate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I could just go on Luis Tavares. Yeah, like all of them, Gustavo, Salomo. That's awesome. Awesome. All right, y'all. Well, we're at time. Brian, thank you, my friends. Stay on real quick, sexy body backstage, but y'all have a great one.

Go check out Brian. Send him an up. Say, hey, I was good to see you on guidance counselor 2.0 again. If you need a job search community, highly recommend joining our Discord. We have a lot of events going. We have streams going every day. We have a bunch of one pages on how to interview better. We'll literally take this interview. We'll turn it into a blog post. We'll do a one-page with this on how to separate yourself in the interview process. So again, if you want to be a part of it, join us. Talk.communities to site and check everything we've got going on. We've got ambassador program.

The application is still open to the end of the month. If you want to be ambassador for the tour program, we'd love to have you. But again, Brian, thank you, my friends. I appreciate it. This was a great chat. We all have a great one. And see you all next week. Thanks, everyone. Please. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode, and I am very grateful. Because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes. And I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the app store.

I want this to be discoverable to others. And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again. You need to reach out to me at T. Dastin on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.