starting over w/ clark sell

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Alrighty. Good morning. I am back in Nashville, Tennessee. Um I'm not in an exotic country. Uh but I tell you what, Barcelona was great. That was a great that that was that that was great. Um you know, it was interesting. I I went I went to dinner with a guy that I met on another community. I'm in next Play community. Um, and uh, we had dinner and it was interesting cuz he was saying like he was like Barcelona is like he he was saying so he's big into like socopolitical stuff which that's way above my head. But he was like Barcelona is like the only place where you can get like the beach next to a huge metropolitan city.

He was like Miami doesn't count because like Miami is like there's Miami and there's like Miami Beach. And he was like, and he goes, "You kind of have LA, but he was like, you know, this, you know, and then the cost of living." I tell you, I tell you this much. Now, granted, it's it's all relative because I actually Googled um well, I chat GPT, let's be honest. But I I chat GPT like salaries uh see like developer salaries in Barcelona incredibly low, right? So, everything's relative, right? But like uh you know we uh I we were talking to this random couple beside us like at at lunch uh one day and they're like yeah like I live right I live like a block away and uh and I pay €900 for an apartment.

And I was like if you lived a block away from the beach in any place in the US you're not paying n only €900. So again it's all relative but Barcelona was great. Barcelona was great. Uh, good morning y'all. I mean, but also it depends on what beach, you know, there are lots of lakes that That's fair. Lakes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That you don't want to be in, but 900 bucks. Also, I ate funny story. I ate they so one of the best croissants I had was in the Barcelona airport, which was crazying. And literally I ate so many croissants. Literally the waitress was like, "Hey, like we can't do that.

We you you can't have another one. Time time to leave my American. I had like I had like seven croissants. Uh but anyways, that's neither here nor there. But anyways, Ricardo, it's good to see you. Ross, it's good to see you. Stepping in for a meeting. I love it. It's good to see you, brother. Jeff, it's good to see you. Michael Colin, it's good to see you, man. Um welcome uh to the show again. Y'all please comment. Say, "Hey, we'd love to hear from you." Uh like I always say, this is a networking event. Um, and so we don't know if you're watching unless you comment.

Um, and uh, I tell people I want this to be a networking opportunity. So slide into somebody in the DMs that's in the comments. Say, "Hey, it was great to see you on guidance counselor 2.0." Network with Clark. He's he's a wealth of information. But I always tell people, listen, if if you have consistently shown up to my show for five years and you haveworked with just the guest alone, you would have had a pretty expansive network. So again, uh, please network. say, "Hey, we'd love to hear from you." Um, we got some more people tuning in. Chris, Devon, Braden, it's good to see you.

Sebastian, it's good to see you. Jordan, it's great to see you as well. Um, first off, I want to say Shot Appite. I'm part of the Heroes program. Probably the only non-technical person on a technical heroes program. Uh, I I don't use their product, but I heard it's great. So, you should check them out. That is that that is I love the honesty. That is my punch line. I've heard it's great. You should check it out. Also, they've like released some new stuff, too. I should probably know this a little bit more, but I think like it's part of the shtick. They released a bunch of new stuff, so you should go check them out.

Uh, it looks exciting. If I was a developer, it looks exciting. Uh, Taylor's like, "Use this. Use this face cream. I promise you'll look younger." I have not used it. Yeah, exactly. Um, and then Torque. Uh, obviously we have a ton going on every single week. Um, between me and Jason Torres and Jimea and Brianna. I mean, we are just going. Um, and so if you want to check out everything we got going on, check out torque. Community. Also too, listen, if you want to be just kept up to date when I go live with guests like Clark, shoot me a text. This is me.

It's not some AI chatbot. It's actually me. Um, so text live 2615235-5650. Would love to loop you in on that. Um, all right. So, and then Mark, it's good to see you this morning. All right, Clark. Uh, let's give the people what they want, man. Who are you? What do you do now? And, uh, and then we'll go from there. You know, I don't really even know how to answer that question. And it feels weird. Like, who are you? Oh, you need to I don't know. You need to like recovering uh event. Yeah. Planner. Seriously. 50year-old, 49year-old uh software engineer, entrepreneur. Yeah. I don't know.

It's it's it what's funny is I went on this like 4-day retreat by myself at a at a cabin up in the woods where uh it was pretty remote and I right back here there's all these uh there's a box full of like giant ass yellow stickies. Yeah. And the only question I wanted to answer was who am I? Like why would you how how am I how am I the guy that calls Clark? Like when you go, "Hey, I got a guy." Yeah. And I'm your guy. Like what does what does that mean? Yeah. And um man, that's a hard question because I feel like I've lost all of who I was over the past 20 years.

Well, that's a great segue uh to obviously this conversation, right? I mean, you know, I the the the title this is starting over. Um, you know, I think Clark, if you want to give uh the folks who may not know and obviously who listen to this in the future kind of a little bit of context uh about that comment. Yeah. You know, I I started in my career as a corporate uh engineer. Sure. I don't know if that's a proper term, but that's what I'm going to call it. Worked my ranks, you know. Um spent eight, nine years at All State. Spent, you know, through the do boom.

spent sure uh 10 years almost 10 years at Microsoft at a startup after that uh and then you know for the last well last 15 years we've had that conference and then uh nine of that eight of that we've had a company called Unspecified and the specified kind of been the quiet day job where we've been doing freelancing work and that conference has been the big behemoth um of of time so essentially for For the last 15 plus years, I've been working, you know, two full-time jobs. So, and that leads me to today, you know. Yeah. Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about the conference, right?

I mean, talk about, I guess, where you grew that to and and just, you know, to obviously continue to give people some context. Yeah, that conference was born out of my desire to get community in the upper Midwest. Um, if you location-wise, if you think about it, we have uh Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison, Green Bay, the Twin Cities, uh, plenty of De Moines. Sure. Yeah. De Mo, the busting city of De Moines. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, the thing about it is they got a pretty big hot tech scene. Yeah. And it's only it's only a few hours away, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so if you just like take that onion and you go like what's happening here and uh where where are people getting together?

I think one of the things we suffer from is like the Java, the Ruby, the database guys, the this that the other. And so everybody's got their little factions. And so I just wanted everybody to get together um and like you would go to camp, right? you bond by the bonfire and food and um kind of cross those cross those boundaries and build the community here in the upper Midwest because a lot of [ __ ] was happening that doesn't get any doesn't get any fanfare, right? The coasts get all the love, right? Oh, these guys are the startups and this and that, but it's like, you know, Jim over there uh wrote the software that's running the, you know, the medical machine at grandma's using.

Yeah. Right. Right. Like Yeah. real [ __ ] happens here, too. And and so I wanted to just highlight that and that and that grew over time and you know before the pandemic we had almost 2,000 people and after the pandemic Yeah. It shifted. Yeah. So So and then So how long were you running that conference for? Since 2010. Since 2010. Okay. So we did 16 I think it was 16 15 16 events in two different cities. So, y majority Wisconsin and then we did three in Texas. Yep. And and and I will say this and and I'm not saying this cuz you're my friend.

I'm saying this cuz I truly mean it. Probably one of the best like stage setups I've I've ever seen. Clark went all out. I mean, that thing looked like a dang camp vibe, which was great. Um and so, uh again, I I still have not really seen a stage setup, uh like that conference. So, um again, shout out to you for that. Well, you know, success for me was sort of twofold. Uh, our our goal was to build a community of people who wanted to hang with one another. Sure. You wanted to know people deeply, um, our goal was to not have you feel like you were in some stuffy ass convention center, right?

The experience meant a lot to me. And, uh, because of that, I felt like it would drive behaviors that were better. Yeah. So, we weren't a party. We weren't, you know, we were sort of not great. You were really I mean I I'm going to speak I'm going to speak for you. I mean you really cultivated I mean I've said this even I mean I've said this from the get-go like your events had a different vibe to them. It was very family friendly. you had I mean because you you specifically kind of did the whole thing around you know uh what what the Kalahari or whatever like it was kind of geared towards families and everybody brought their a lot of people brought their kids and I mean it it was it was a definitely a camp vibe I it was a very like fun uh everybody there kind of had the same vibe just really wanted to talk I don't know it was just a very special and I know it maybe kind of sucks me even saying that because obviously that's not happening anymore But but you did a fantastic I know compliments don't pay the bills.

If they did, you'd be rich, but uh you really built something special. I mean, again, I give him your flowers publicly. I I appreciate that. And and I see Richard and Roxy and Jason. I mean, a lot of people here who have been there and Ross who's been there for a long time. The thing about it was nobody like nobody knew it until they could until they've been there. And you can't sell that. Yeah. Right. Like everybody would compare it to another conference and think that it was the same thing when it wasn't. You know, at its core it was, but it but it wasn't.

Like so you would come sort of in blind faith and go, "Oh, that was great." And then the second time you'd really know how to take advantage and the third time you'd be, you know, a pro. Yeah. But I had to get you there the first time and after the pandemic that became super hard. Yeah. Yeah. Sebastian in the chat goes when when's the next one? Well, well, so let's talk about Right. So, all right. So, you built this thing, right? You had it was it was I mean I I would say I would say just in this in the scheme of keeping conferences and meetups going.

I mean, it's hard enough to keep a virtual dads in tech thing going every month, let alone an in-person conference for 12 years, you know. And then obviously you had to sunset that because like we all know like it it's just the the the environment just isn't what it is. And but talk I mean talk about where you're at now, man. Like reinventing yourself, you know? I I think I mean I'm seeing you kind of in public reinventing yourself. I mean, talk talk about, you know, I mean, we could talk talk about the mental toll, but I I I really want to talk about, you know, the the thought of reinventing yourself and and giving permission to tell people like, hey, it's it's okay to start over.

Yeah. I mean, look, I'm 49 years old. I've been around this uh game for a long time, and that feels really old to say. And life took a turn that we didn't expect. Sure. you know when the pandemic came I anybody who's sort of in the position that we are or were with the conference you know a lot of people saw me as an event planner didn't had zero clue that I've been slinging code for 25 years had zero clue that we built the entire platform that ran the thing sure um we you know we found ourselves in a financial position that just sort of continued to get worse Sure.

And that is inflation. That is the rising costs of uh corporate, you know, crap that was going on. Um ticket sales down, companies not wanting to sponsor, right? Like the writing is sort of all over the wall and we really tried to pull it out. But when you're dealing with venues and multi-year contracts and all that kind of stuff, you know, I'm left sort of standing on stage trying to act as if everything is fine and for the people that uh were there like it was great for them, but you know, inside like I don't know how I'm going to pay bills. Um, and that's um, obviously that left us in a place where I had to I ended up going into Aphib and going to the ER during during the event you you were at, right?

Yep. Yep. And, um, that, you know, that led to a lot of health issues and like, you know, there's not a team of 50. there was a team of two three who were spending all day every day you know planning the thing. So, uh, you know, we get to a place where financially it like we're underwater, massive amounts of money, and just you can't you can't do it anymore. And then you're left with like, what the [ __ ] Like, what am I who am I now? Like, we burned unspecified money to be a sponsor. The plan didn't work. Confidence is is tanking. Health isn't good.

Kids going to college. and you're like, I don't I don't I for what? Like what's going on? Like who's who's the person checking in on me, right? Not that that's anybody's job, but Sure. Sure. You're like, what am I like what's going on? Yeah. [Music] And look, I you know, there's a bit of uh hustle mode. So, since last uh well, I mean, we've just been sort of dealing with the death of it and uh the financial commitments that need to be done and legal crap. Meanwhile, trying to figure out, well, where are we going to take Unspecified? How are we going to do it?

It's been sort of the bastard child that hasn't really gotten the attention that it's want. So, it's just like eb and float. What the what does a 49year-old guy do? Like what what am I now? Like I've got this vast array of experience of like event planning, community, uh entrepreneurship, engineering, whatever, whatever. Yeah. And you're sort of left holding this, you know, bag going, I I what what are we doing? Where where am I? and shattered confidence. Like, sure, how do I know that the next thing is going to be the right thing? And can we weather? Like, I got a kid going to college.

I got one in high school. I got bills to pay. Like, family to feed. Like, it's [ __ ] real. And I just lost hundreds of thousands of dollars that where does that come from? Well, you know, retirement investments. Like, you don't there's no like magical like people going to get paid. Yeah. So, so, so let me ask you this. like what would be your advice for folks right because I know I know I've seen a lot of folks even to during this time like step away from tech right you know who got into tech in 2021 2022 who just haven't been able to you have gotten laid off and can't find a job again and having to restart themselves and I mean what what what would be your biggest piece of advice or biggest words of encouragement to those who maybe just may just feel like maybe they're hitting a dead end over and over again you know looking back I look at my career and I Oh, I said I didn't want to be an engineer.

Yeah. Uh when I my very first interview, uh it was months later I found myself programming. Loved it. Y I got into it. I've changed languages, platforms more times than need need to fromnet to open source to this that and the other. I was deep in security at one point and then backed out. I became an event planner. I became an entrepreneur. I was in testing. I was in architecture. I was a product manager. Yeah. I think the thing that you kind of think is like your career sort of just kind of goes up and to the right. Yeah. And the reality is it sort of eb and flows 100%.

And where I didn't really have a good kind of eye on things was really taking that um autopsy of me and saying what do I do that I'm I really enjoy and what do I do that I I don't like and working on my personal brand. Like I let everything go to focus on everybody else at TC. Yeah. Yeah. And the community and all that to like no website to no like I let it all go. Yeah. And then I left with nothing. Yeah. And and that nothing is me not understanding who I was, me not doing the work of where I should go. And so, you know, knowing that your your like career is going to eb and flow, knowing what you want to do and doing the work on you and just um being intentional about what it is you want to do.

Like, you want to make a million dollars, great. Then learn about like why you want to make a million dollars and yeah, what things you're going to do to get there and why you're going to why you're going to do it and what's your why and um put the work in. I and I think the thing that bothers me the most about the whole like developer community at at large is that everybody broadstrokes people are expecting their managers to pay for their [ __ ] instead of them investing in themselves. Like it's like my company should do rather than I should do. And I'm not saying that your company shouldn't participate in that, but I am saying that if you if that's what you expect to like propel you forward, then you're playing their game, not yours.

And um and we work for a long time, right? And so now I find myself in sitting here um you know, doing the work and we have we sort of have nothing at the moment, right? and we're building building a new company and I'm on YouTube and like all of that feels awkward. Sure. But also correct. And you're sitting here in a time where tech is changing and you can like it or not like it. AI is going to completely disrupt everything that everybody knows about the [ __ ] that's going on. how you work, who you work with, the speed of which you work, how the workplace looks, how you write code, how you market, how whatever.

It's not bad. Like the internet changed the game, too. Cars changed the game. We went from horses to cars. Yeah. Yeah. In 13 years, that was it. 13 years, it went from like a luxury item to millions mainstream on the road. Yeah. That ain't a like That's not a long time. Yep. So, so in so in hindsight, what you're saying is is to really be more of your own advocate, right? I mean, that's I mean, that's that's really what I'm hearing you say. I mean, I right now I'm doing some coaching uh for folks or mentoring. Sure. And you know, it it's it's surprising how many people are resistant to getting outside help.

Like nobody's beating down my door to get mentored. Now I'm not saying like, "Hey, look at me." Like everybody should come, but Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the same reason people aren't going to conferences and meetups because they feel like they don't have to or they can get it from this. And you and I have been on the thing of like get involved in community, show up, do the thing, blah blah blah blah. How many [ __ ] people are doing it? Not enough. So you So for everybody who's here, like I like like that's a big deal. Yeah, about the disproportionate amount of people who aren't and then you go, look, I'm like you and I've said it before, showing up is like it's threearters of the battle to show up.

Yeah. I mean, it really is. And people don't get it. And I mean, like just physic I mean here virtual, right? Yeah. But like for our company, I'm like, "Hey, can I meet you at your office?" And people are like, "What?" Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think I I and I think that's huge. I And I I want to I want to highlight, you know, kind of asking for help or or just or just going for the ask and whatever it is. I saw a tweet the other day. It was it was some VC or founders, I don't know, something. It basically was like, I can't tell you the amount of times that I I ask that people reach out, ask for help, and I give them specific follow-up things and follow up with me afterwards, and nobody does.

Oh, yeah. Totally. A and like for me I think like and this is this is what I spoke in with with a lot of my talks lately and it's what I said in Barcelona like I think people right now in this market in this day and age generally want to help others but the fact of the matter is is you you just you got to go for the ask and and you got to stay persistent. I literally just asked a billionaire to coach me and he's been talking to me every other day. Really? Yeah. I mean I mean prime example the the the the vlog I just dropped from Stir Track the this morning.

Um I I literally have it in the vlog. There's there's this uh DTOC founder. He's in he's like he it's like hydration salt electrolytes and whatever. And I've been following he's got a vlog. He's great. His name is Ross McKay. And I he tweeted and he was like hey recommend somebody. I recommended my CrossFit coach. her and her husband are like they they own like a allnatural bakery and they run the CrossFit and like she she has a brain tumor now. While it is it comes back, it's crazy. She's got to get removed. It's not like it's it's benign but still. So I like I I recommended I was like, "Hey, listen.

Like my coaches are doing some crazy stuff. Like they're they're on it." I just shot my shot. He was in my DMs. Goes send me the address of your coach. I would love to send them a free month worth. And it's like if I would have never just gone for the ask, dude. I would tell 200 speakers every year that I would help coach them, help them with their presentations, what whatever they needed to be the most badass version of themselves. Do you know how many people said they would Do you know how many people took me up? Handful every year out of a hundred.

And then I would say I would gladly give you feedback like so those who submitted and didn't get it I would say well look and so we would send out 600 rejects and I would say you here's a scheduling link I will gladly work through with you how to make your presentation better or your abstract better so that you can go to whatever and every single time I had one just one hurdle which was you had to reply to get the link to do it and I would get maybe 30 people who would reply and then I'd give them the link and I would get maybe five to 10 who would click the link and I would literally spend hours on that person's [ __ ] Yeah.

And out of 600 you five 10 Yeah. Yeah. Like like come on. You got like somebody said in the chat like just show up, right? Like Yeah. Like it. Yeah. I don't know. It's crazy. So, all right. So, we're already coming up on time, which is funny how this works. I do have a hard stop at 10 because I gota I got to call. You got to make these longer, my man. I know. I know. I know. Uh the whole thing was these bite-sized ones, right? Uh yeah, but you can't get into the meat, man. You're like, "Hey, tell me why you reinvented your life and I got to go.

Here's my new face cream. Use my discount code Taylor for Yeah. Yeah. 2% off." Yeah. Exactly. Talk. I mean, so I as we wrap up here, I mean, what what's next for Clark? I mean, how h how have you kind of, you know, reinvented yourself over the last what year or nine months or however long it's been? Yeah. I mean, since January, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. So, we didn't know in December if we weren't going to do TC. So, we didn't January. Uh, let's see. What is Clark doing? Clark is on YouTube talking about uh the journey of building a new company called Unspecified. Yeah. Um, so you all want to go you all want to go see that like just crossed 25 videos.

So, that's been a whirlwind. That's huge. huge 49y old person like hitting hitting record. Uh that's uh that's led to you know what are we doing with unspecified which is trying to be um trying to have a voice or our plan is to have a voice in how AI and tech can sort of revolutionize the workplace. Yeah. How can we how do we take advantage of it so that humans can do what humans do really well? Yeah. And it's not really a um you know for developers or business owners or tailor like this isn't like AI is replacing you. It's how is AI going to enable you to do the things that make you special and that's sort of why we did the conference just in a different format.

So yeah, kind of playing these two two roles like figuring it out like I mean literally talking about like I just got you know we got our first customer and like what does that mean? Yeah. How are we getting more? That's that's the whole point of the YouTube channel while rebuilding the personal brand and the company brand and just the whole nine [ __ ] yards. Talk it better it better happen fast because baby's got bills to pay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, 100%. Let me let me ask you this. Uh I I am curious uh what what are some uh you know during your coaching and whatnot.

Are there any other things that you've seen from others that you can share uh you know at a high level of of people who are struggling or or or maybe just some things that you're consistently seeing to encourage others like just some consistent themes of those conversations. Uh yeah I mean we could spend another hour on that but I will say I will say this. So I do have a coaching program or mentoring program. don't really know what some people call it the church of clerk. The church of something that's something you're interested in, you know, hit me up. But um here here's what I'll see.

Here's what I'll say. One, every single one of these starts with the first principle, which is health. It is without question the superpower of what you're going to do mentally and physically. Most people underestimate. And look, I I'm not in I'm not in the best shape. We were talking before we got on. I've lost Well, I mean I mean you're down 30 pounds, you said, right? right? Or something like that or 20 pound 35 in the last three months. That's huge, man. Huge. And and so it starts there. Um right, you're not going to you're not going to perform well if you can't take care of yourself.

It also it's also how you show up to others. Y um and then we get into, you know, um hobbies, who you are, what you want in your career, uh what do you want your personal brand to be, and really just sort of doing the work and figuring it out because people haven't done the work, right? You're going to work and sort of expecting or you're you're you're doing things but without a vision or you don't know how to say no or you are stuck in your own loop of like I don't feel like I'm good enough, right? So, there's a bit of like no, like let's get through why you feel that way.

Um, hence the sort of Church of Clark because honestly sometimes you just need somebody to call your [ __ ] and go, "Yeah, just stop being a pansy and like go get after it." like, yeah, you're going to have to you're going to have to fail to move forward, but you don't understand why it's important until you've gone through that failure. Yeah. Right. Yep. So I can look back at TC and go I could tell you the good things and I could tell you where we failed and I you know you made a random comment I don't long time ago like community centers around shared pain.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well it turns out all things businesses communities like they are all shared pain. Like a business solves a shared pain for a constituent that has a thing. You off they offer to give you money so that you can solve it faster, right? We go to the grocery store because the shared pain. We all don't want to become farmers, right? I just want my [ __ ] packaged in a cart so that I can go make it. I don't want to go kill the cattle so that I can get a brisket. So, I mean, it just exists everywhere. And um but you gota you got to do the work.

And my my thing with coaching mentoring is that somebody else can sort of help you get there faster. Yeah. And help help um help you get unstuck and y help you uncover what you don't know. So and I think you need multiples of them whether it's therapy or coaching or Yeah. Yeah, just like you'd be in multiple communities, right? You're not going to be in one. You're going to be in all sorts of them. So, I love that. I love that. Any last words of encouragement? It's so funny. The the the title was starting over, but I feel like we talked about just going for the ask and and and obviously kind of like being your own advocate.

I don't need to edit the title of this episode, but a any last words of encouragement for people who are feeling stuck in their career? it. I would say if you feel like it, then you probably are. And I live by this this mantra of action creates momentum. I love that. And so you have to you have to take action and do to to move the ball or push the cursor forward. Yeah. And you got to consume a little bit less and do a little more and just keep doing. And that energy, the good energy will uh will attract other good energy. And so that law of attraction will happen.

You show up. You do the thing. Be humble. It's cool if you don't know. Like too many people are so stuck on there like I can't, I can't, I can't. Instead of you get to, you get to, you get to. Oh, I love that. So do it. Learn from it. Move on. And if you're sitting here in your sort of, you know, AI is going to take my job and this and that, I just say shut the [ __ ] up and figure it out. like it's not going away. Yeah. And so how are you going to participate in it? How are you what are you going to be?

How are you gonna um be an advocate or an I'll say influencer? How are you going to uh participate in the the things that are changing for the way you want it to change? So yep, it's coming. I mean we had three huge huge announcements last week, right? Yeah. You think there's few months later we're going to have another three, four giant announcements. Yep. Yep. So, I love it. Action creates momentum, you know. There you go. Do it. I love it. Uh, where I know obviously most people tune in know you, but where, you know, if people listen this in the future, where can people find you if they want to reach out for consulting or mentoring or whatever, where's where where's the best place for people to reach out to you?

Uh, you I'm in all the socials as the Clark cell. I'm on YouTube as Clark Cell. Um, if you want to email me, hello@unspecified.io, like I'm here in LinkedIn and all the places. So, I love it. You are very accessible, which I love. Yeah. Like, if you can't find me, you probably don't really want to work with me, but I love it. I love it. But I also need a better website so that you could just go there and do it. I love it. I love it. Um, well y'all, thank you again for tuning this morning. Clark, uh, stay on real quick so I can say bye to you backstage.

But, um, y'all have a great one. Connect with Clark. Um, tomorrow morning, uh, we are back live, um, with another guest. I'm hanging out with Pat Clark, uh, director of engineering, um, out of Raleigh. Pat did it wrong. It's supposed to be Clark and then he's got it all backwards. Pat Pat leads the Dads in tech kind of Raleigh chapter, per se. So, we're going to be hanging out talking about generalist versus specialist. Um, so it's going to be a great conversation. So, I'll see you tomorrow morning, 9:30 a.m. Central. Go connect with Clark. Clark, thank you, my friend. And uh we'll see y'all