from blockbusters to burnout - reinventing work with steven puri

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Alrighty, we are live this morning. Good morning everybody. Happy hump day. I really wish uh was it All State or Geico that had that? I I I I still think that was a great promotion, but they went away from it. Uh >> you're not a fan of the emu liberty thing, whatever. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's a little weird. Emus. Emus is kind of an interesting choice. I feel like for uh you know I I don't know. Not many people like are really like super indebted to emus I feel like. >> No. And the Geico thing is a little bit of a stretch. >> Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Like I I'm not super passionate about emus. I'm more passionate about camels, but even then that's mainly just because I grew up on watching Aladdin. Um so >> in the desert as as one >> Exactly. >> Welcome back to Morocco. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh I've always wanted to visit. Uh, good morning everybody. Um, happy Wednesday. We are live this morning. You're probably like, "Well, Taylor, you finally have a guest." I do. >> I do. Yeah. Stephen, >> the low low price of $50,000 Stephen showed up today. >> Stephen Steven paid me in Bitcoin before this um to get on. No. Um, >> which is worth what the today?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um, so the so you know I've been focused if if for those of you tuning in um uh I've been focused on kind of walking you through uh an eightweek series on how to use AI in your job search. Um so we just finished week four yesterday. Um we worked on rewriting your LinkedIn yesterday using AI. Um and you know ultimately at the end of the day you know I have people that pop into my inbox. I'm going to be honest with you. I have I don't know what's going on right now. Stephen did not use this. This Stephen reached out to me and I know it was Stephen that reached out to me, but there's like a lot of AI outreach right now for people getting on podcast.

I have gotten so many emails. I I got an email of some person trying to get the CEO of some golf company on my show, which in in hindsight, I do love golf. So, I probably should revisit that email and be like, "Hey, listen. He can come on if you send me some clubs." >> What a lifetime membership to Topgolf. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. if you can send me some clubs and some swag, your CEO can come on the show. Um, but no, so Stephen reached out to me. It's been a minute. He and I have gone back and forth. Um, and uh, because of my travel and the way life has been with three kids, we haven't been able to connect.

So, now we're here and I'm super excited um, to to obviously go over uh, Stephen's background. Um, and and you know, I think this is going to be a great show. He and I were chatting backstage and he's a incredible individual. Um, so super pumped about this. Before we dive in, we want to go through some housekeeping things as always. Um, first and foremost, please say, "Hey, would love to hear from you. I I talk about this all the time. I've been doing this thing for six years now." This is this is really just a meetup. It's a virtual meetup. You comes, you say, "Hey, slide into some DMs, say, "It was great to see you on the show." And then that is your starting part of the relationship, right?

I think one of the issues that most people have when it comes to networking is they don't know how to start. They don't have a um connection. They don't have a way to uh bond each other, right? Because when it comes to networking, bonding each other through a shared experience is the way to do it. Um I'm giving you that excuse. The problem is is we're not in the metaverse yet. We're not on our Apple goggles or whatever they are, Apple Vision Pros or whatever. So, we can't see people. So, the only way to know if you are here is to comment and allow people uh to connect with you.

So, please do so. Uh first off, if you uh want to be updated whenever I go live with guests um uh you know, like Stephen, shoot me a text 615235-5650. This is my number. Um, I will also whenever I travel with Torque and we throw activations, I also send out a text to those cities. So when you sign up and ask you for where your city is, please do that. So then you can come to our events. It's great. Um, also if you have not jumped into our Discord yet, um, we hit new alltime numbers right around 10,000 12,000 messages sent a month in the TOR Discord.

Uh, we have people just trying to help other people. I've gotten some DMs lately. It's been really cool. Just random strangers going, "Man, I love what you're building." And so super grateful. Shout out to Roxy who's kind of our Discord queen. She's kind of uh the the heart and soul of that. She's on vacation right now. Um but again, go go check that out. Uh also too, listen, kind of the unofficial official coffee sponsor of guidance counselor 2.0 and Torque Seek to Live is an organic coffee. Stephen, I don't know if you know this, but most coffee has mold in it. Trace mold in it.

>> Oh, you should hear what's in cocoa. >> Yeah, I did not know that. And so, uh, my boy Caleb, he's in Nashville. He's a founder. He's developed a, um, organic coffee that has zero mold. It's been tested and all that stuff and it's super clean. So, if you use Ted Destintolive.com, you get 15% off. And we're working on a Torque membership as well. >> How do you advertise that? Do you go like mold free? And then people are like, that's the one that talks about mold. >> Well, it's crazy. So, he and I had lunch a few months ago and like the marketing, he really leads into like the mold stuff with coffee, which is great, right?

because from a marketing perspective, it's conflict and you're, you know, it's like, holy cow. Um, so it's really cool. His mom still writes thank you notes. Um, the reason why he started this company is his mom had some autoimmune issues and was getting sick. He was drinking so much Starbucks. So, he created this coffee company and it healed his mom mom's autoimmune issues and then his brother's involved. It's great. I love >> that's a great story. I saved my mom with coffee. Buy some. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's great. It's great. So, all right. So, let's get into it. Um, again, Chris, Richie, good morning. It's good to see y'all.

Um, for those rest of you tuning in, hope you enjoy the show. Stephen, let's go ahead and get started, man. Who are you? What do you do? And we'll go from there. >> Okay. So, for those listening, and uh God bless you for doing this for six years. That takes tremendous commitment and amount of energy. listening, here's the only reason to listen to this episode with me is I'm one of the few people you will meet >> who's been a senior executive at a couple motion picture studios, like run the Die Hard franchise, run the Wolverine franchise, worked on Transformers, stuff like that, >> and also raised over $20 million of venture capital and started three companies, one successful exit, two abject failures.

And it's true, you learn more from the failures. >> 33% is actually pretty good. 33% I'm I'm shooting Yeah. from Listen, man. If that was my golf game, I'd be great. [laughter] >> So, this episode what what um we had talked about Dale and I were like, "You know what? Something I care about very much is for you to achieve in this world, which means do the things that get you the next job, get you the first job, make you succeed in that job. You have to exist in a world that is full of distractions. like our world is designed to distract you from doing the things moving forward.

>> And I've been really focused on what are the tools, what are the mindsets like the great screenwriters, great directors, the great engineers and and you know UIX designers I've worked with and how do you steal them? >> U script. No, I'm out of film. I'm out of film now. >> But I appreciate that, Richie. I'm sure it's a good one. >> Yeah. >> Good morning, Erica. So, let me let So, let's start out kind of super broad, right? And again, I I created some questions for some guard rails, but I think this first question, in my opinion, kind of sets the tone here. You started as a software engineer, newscaster, built an Oscar winning VFX studio, ran franchises at Fox and DreamWorks, raised VC, and now runs Suka.

>> H how do you look back on that path, and what would you tell someone earlier in their career who feels like they need to pick one lane? because I will tell you, you are the antithesis of picking one lane. >> I am the anti that is so true. I have reinvented myself a couple times. Um, for those playing along at home or listening in the car, here's what Taylor's talking about is my parents both worked at IBM. My mom was a software engineer writing code. My dad was a hardware engineer designing CPUs. >> So, you know, it's like your parents are great ice skaters.

You probably learned to icekate when you were a kid, even if you didn't study it, right? Yeah. So, I knew how to code because it was just something mom did. >> So, when I went to uh USC, Southern California. >> Oh, you went you went to the the bad USC. I went to the true >> I went to the other the other USC. >> The one with a very good film school though. >> Okay. Fair enough. >> I'm just going to say fair. >> So, when I went out to USC, I had a scholarship from IBM that allowed me to make money coding so I could work on the side, make money for school, right?

So keep that in mind because that's going to be important in this like little reinvention story. >> Sure. >> So I had that kind of skill where it was super nerdy to code, to hack, to do any of that stuff, right? Pirate games, all the things we did. Technically, I was in school at USC for business and journalism like broadcasting. Pursued that. A lot of my buddies in the dorm though were in cinema TV because it's arguably the best cinema TV school in the world, right? Spielberg, Lucas, you know, Ron Howard, like all these guys come out here. while I was in LA going to USC is where film went digital.

So that was one of those technology shifts that hadn't been possible before. So ProTools could manipulate audio. You know, Avids were doing nonlinear editing on the computer instead of on flatbed, you know, film editing systems. >> And Silicon Graphics made computers where you could make >> visuals. You could make entire visual effects shots, right? >> Yes. Chris the other USC. Nice. So what happened for me was I had this opportunity because a lot of my friends were in cinema TV. So of course you have a lot of you know late night let's go to the movies and debates for movies and diners kind of like you know thing even if my degrees were not in that and I knew how to code and I had a creative instinct and there was a great demand for people who could bridge those two worlds because suddenly film people are like oh my god we need people who can speak engineer and help us things in this new world and I just raised my hand I was like I'll try that out >> started at the bottom this is an important theme went into it kind of eaglelessly not like oh hey I know what I'm doing I was like, "No, man.

I'm just going to shut up." >> Yeah. >> Get me in the door >> because I want to be around the best people and I will not get in the way, but I will learn. And let me tell you, I did 14 movies in Digital Effects. I got to work with Cameron on True Lies, Fincher on Seven, Mel on Braveheart and Mortal Beloved, Roland Dean on Independence Day. Like, go down the list. I went with John McTurnan on Demolition Man. Like, I'm on on that last action hero. So, this is something I'm gonna pass along because you know, Taylor, you and I were talking about kids.

I have an eight-month-old. So, suddenly I'm starting to think about like when he's old enough to go like, "Hey, daddy, how should I think about my career? What should I do?" Here's one of the important things in my life. >> Find the best person in the field you want to go into >> and do whatever you need to to get around them. That means like if you want to be a basketball player, >> don't go and take a job coaching a high school basketball team because like I'm making $50,000 a year. I'm getting paid to be in basketball. No, man. Find out where Michael Jordan practices >> and mop the floors.

>> Ah, so good >> in that. >> So good. >> Watch what greatness [snorts] looks like, what it sounds like, what it tastes like, because that is going to be how you model your career. And I did that watching Cameron and he's a fierce and ferocious guy right >> watching Fincher watching these guys work >> that propelled my career. Yeah. So I produced the digital effects for Independent State. We won the Academy Award. >> That would not have happened had I not done the time being beaten up by Cameron and Fincher and these guys who were just perfectionists but they knew what they were talking about.

Right. So yeah, I'm gonna interrupt you real quick because I I because again this is why I just want to get you talking because I'm because I can pull things out. So one thing you said it's really funny because this is what I was told by my mentor at Veco is get into the rooms with engineers and shut up. >> Yep. Exactly right. I think one of the biggest issues from the recruiting perspective, right? And I kind of play in this weird mix of like marketing, recruiting community, like I'm kind of in this like weird kind of uh state right now. Mhm. >> But, you know, I always tell recruiters, my biggest piece of advice is, you know, I I started kind of building community, I guess you could say, when I was in Raleigh, North Carolina, and my mentor said, "Go to meetups every week, show up, pull out a notepad, >> take notes, and don't talk." >> And I did that.

And I would say still to this day, it is the thing that got me in the door in Raleigh in 2013, which is funny how careers come back. I'm sure we'll touch on this. 13 years later, guess who's focused on building community in Raleigh right now. >> There you go. >> And I'm able to leverage those connections. So, I think that's incredibly important. I think also too, showing up in spaces, you know, we talk about networking. I put out a tweet this morning. Conference season is upon us, [laughter] right? And I think I think you know and and I have a tweet scheduled for later this afternoon about dating in the job search, right?

People think you know it's just like dating like you can't go find your significant other by sitting in your house. >> Yep. >> You got to get in room. So again, I just I I just >> I want to hang answer on that because that is so true. And I'll tell you this. In everything I've done, I have never applied for a job. >> It has always been because of my network. Mhm. >> It has always been like, "Hey man, we're doing something cool over here and I think there's a part of this you know how to do. You want to come over here and meet like my crew >> and that turns into this that turns into like how did I get to go to DreamWorks?

>> I was working a job at Sony I was not good at. I was working at a company that was making movies where I was glad to be a junior executive, you know, like developing films, but we were making like Bewitched. >> Yeah. >> And like um RV, you know what I mean? The >> I I woke up in the morning because of Star Wars. Star Trek like Raise the Lost Art, you know what I mean? >> Not not bewitched, >> right? So I'm there and I got to tell you like my boss who was really nice dude, he had won Academy Award for Gladiator and other stuff.

He was at a point in his career where his deal at Sony was like, "Hey man, give us this kind of movie." And I was just like flailing around trying to find him something like that when I ultimately didn't care about those movies. So talked to a couple friends. One friend was like, "Hey man, no one knows this, but the writers of Mission Impossible 3, Zoro, the island, blah blah, they're about to make a deal at DreamWorks." Yeah. >> And they need someone. >> Went had that lunch. He set up a lunch. By the end of that afternoon, had a job at DreamWorks, >> you know.

And and again, this I sent you these questions and I'm I'm not following them, but I I I think I I just I want to drive home something and I've talked to my wife about this and I love the kid theme, right? You know, I you just become very introspective when you have kids, right? And right and true, you know, with me being in career stuff and helping people in their career. My wife and I have had a lot of conversations, right? My wife went to SCAD. She went for fine art, photography. >> Oh, wow. um painting, all that thing, all that creative stuff, which I can't do.

>> And she talked about how like she came out of college and didn't know anything. I talked about I came out of college, didn't know anything, and we both agreed that it would have been better if we just like went to go intern like and brought people coffee. And I I I I've talked a little bit about this, but not enough about it. I think I think we got to talk about job shadowing again. I think I think we got to talk about showing up at some company and be like, "Hey, do you guys need coffee? Like what can I like because >> 100%. Go ahead.

Can I can I relate my version of what you just said?" >> So [snorts] when I made that transition into digital effects, making images for movies on the computer, right? >> I knew how to code, but I really didn't understand film. Like I had a understanding from buddies at USC. They're all at Sigma students like so I knew some of the words master shot you know jump cut stuff like that right >> not ready to be in the room with John McTurnin or Cameron or Fincher Mel or anyone and sound like I knew what I was doing so oh Richie yes shut up and listen can I tell you this is you just titled the story that I'm about to tell >> so when I went a friend of mine again all network >> a friend of mine said hey man I know the visual effect supervisor on this movie John McTaran's about to do a Schwarz singer.

I can uh get you an intro and I went over there eagleist and I was like I'll do whatever you need. And the guy was like whatever I need. I was like whatever you need. He goes listen I need someone who's going to sit on the film camera until 2:30 in the morning alone in a room and shoot these shots out to film and then drive them to the lab to be developed at like 2:33 in the morning. No way. So, you need to show up like 600 6:30 at night and you're going to sit there and artists are going to come to you going, "Hey man, I finished this shot of, you know, Schwarzenegger blasting the wall down, whatever." And you just sit there frame after frame and watch it record.

And I was like, "Sign me up." >> But what did that allow me to do? >> Got you indoors. >> Got me in the door. And when you just said about shadowing, so you get a shot and it takes an hour to record out the film. I get it started and then I walk around to all the artists who are there at night who are staying late. I'm like, "Hey man, can I watch what you're doing?" >> That's how I learned compositing, 3D modeling, 3D animation by be like, "Hey man, I got like 45 minutes. Can I just watch you model that?" How do you build that?

>> You just shut up and listen. >> Yeah. >> Four years later, >> I produced the digital effects for Independence Day. We won the Academy Award. >> Yeah. It's crazy. >> That is how I went from how do you do that to, hey man, this is, you know, kind of cool. >> That's crazy. Oh, SCAD is a great school, Chris. >> Yeah, I've hired a bunch of back when I was in visual effects. I hired people from >> Yeah, they have a really I know wife and I talked about that, too. Yeah. I mean, again, from Justin right here, Justin, it's good to see you also.

Yeah, had the same conversation. My wife, I mean, I think it's just changing, right? I mean, you know, I for me, you know, like I think one of my biggest regrets, I don't have really regrets, but I think if I were to have a regret, I wish so I I grew up my dad grew up in the restaurant industry, right? He still runs restaurants. So, all I knew is restaurant industry. I didn't know about tech. I didn't know about San Francisco or New York City. And I think in hindsight, I would have I should have probably just moved out to San Francisco when I was young, right?

When I had no responsibilities and young and slummed it up with, you know, six guys in a in an apartment, right? And I and you know, one of the guys we're talking about copying people. I mean, I have copied Gary Vaynerchuk's blueprint when it comes to marketing and community building. And one thing he's always talked about is that if you are young, we we preach as a as a society, hey, go to college, get the degree, get a nineto-5. But the reality of the situation is I think and I'm going to encourage my daughter and my son, not my youngest daughter, just where whatever you want to do, go move.

Go to that city and get involved in the culture and the community and just let it ride because I think that will just pay dividends. My cousin just graduated, first or second cousin. I can't remember how you, but anyway, just graduated from Penn State. >> We flew out to State College or a month, two months ago. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> He stayed with me the last two nights as he is driving across the country to San Francisco where he is going to hang out in the Bay Area with all his friends who have graduated and just get in the community. He's like, I don't have a job yet.

I have things I'm hacking on, but I just want to go to the meetups. I want to like go to the lunches and the coffees and just immerse myself in that. I was like, "That is the smartest thing you could do right now." >> I love it. I love it. All right, so we talked. So I again I I love this. I love interviewing people because I love where the conversations takes us. So I I so I want to go into kind of your startup experience. Um walk us through kind of your startup experience. So went from film to startup. Talk about why you know again highlight why you left, what you built.

Kind of just give me synopsis and give the people listen that. When we were doing Independence Day, Roland Emerick, director, producer, Dean Develin, writer, producer, the three of us became close, got along really well, liked the same movies, same kind of ethic. So, in the course of that, we agreed to start a company together. We're like, we're going to be doing big event movies. They need a lot of digital effects. So, that's how we started Centropolis Effects, the first company I started. right >> now. When the last film you did won an Academy Award, not hard to raise money, by the way, you know, [laughter] >> I would imagine.

>> Yeah, we raised like 15 million. It was not like the drudging up and down Sand Hill Road with the stupid deck and trying to convince people, you know, it was like, "Hey man, we know what we're doing. This is what we're going to do. Who wants in?" Sony uh ponyed up most of the money, the Sony venture arm, right? So that which four years later we sold was a great experience for me you know making mistakes raising some money doing some things well doing some things poorly d right but first startup sold it at a six multiple >> wow >> and I was 28 and I was like oh okay that was an amazing lesson so then cut to later where I'm you know senior executive at Fox running Die Hard and stuff like that and I got to tell you be super blunt Die Hard 5 killed It was such an awful story.

Like that movie was moving forward through development solely because you could put out a poster that said Die Hard and enough people would see it. It didn't matter if the film is any good. >> Which is sad, right? >> Yeah. >> And I looked up and I was kind of like, I'm going to wake up >> be the guy sitting in this chair 40, 50, 60, 70 years old being like, "Daddy's making die hard 19, you know, to pay for your college." And I was like, what a waste of my life, you know? Ultimately, the chair makes those movies. Like at the big studios, >> you're the guy or the girl in a chair for two, three, four years.

>> You're there for the Maleficent sequel spin-off, you know, prequel. And then someone else is there for the Marvel prequel, right? It's just it's not about you. It's about the studio. It's about the franchise. And that's when I was like, well, there's one other thing I know how to do. And I worked well the first time. Do a startup. Right. >> Yeah. >> That's how I had the confidence to do it. And of course the next two startups I did failed which was embarrassing af. >> Yeah. What what so and this was one of the questions here. What would you say? I think right so kind of a twofold question here.

I I think the first thing is is I think right now in the state of tech that I think what's happening is that people are realizing there's no stability. There's no long-term jobs. Yeah. There's no, you know, even with big tech, the the glory and the glamour and glitz is not there anymore because of the massive amounts of layoffs. I think there's a lot of people who are open to starting their own thing. I think with AI, there's people that are open that it's very easy to start their own thing now. What would be maybe some Let's Let's start the first side. What would be some advice for folks if they're wanting to start their own thing?

Um, especially pulling from your failures. >> [snorts] >> All the advice I'm going to give is from me getting my fingers burnt and making mistakes. Okay. >> It is the best way to learn. So >> straight up I thought he worked at Blockbuster. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Oh. So, so, so Jason worked with me. He's a former film guy, too. >> And Jason, by the way, your VHS tapes are overdue, so we're going to send you a bill. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Bring them back. >> So, number one mistake I made first startup after Fox, right? When I was like, I'm out of here. This sucks.

We're all just doing prequels and sequels and spin-offs and stuff, right? I misunderstood the feedback you get from people who are not paying. Friends, family, investors, you know, anyone you can hit up, try my thing, whatever it is. I don't care if it's a new version of a stapler, it's a new app, it's an desktop thing, it's whatever the hell it is. I didn't realize everyone lies to you. M >> the only signal is will someone pay and I figured that out too late with my first startup after Fox right where it's like oh this is super fun and as soon as it was like oh we had 60,000 monthly active users it was like well how are you going to sustain this because we had raised like three and a little over three million in venture for that right so that can subsidize a whole bunch of free usage >> and yeah there were thank you Jason I appreciate that you Um, be kind.

Be kind. Rewind. Um, so that's number one. >> Yeah. >> Don't listen to anyone. Don't be proud of your weight list. I have 20,000 people on the wait list to try this. It means nothing. The thing that matters is, is someone going to put a credit card in and go, "Hey man, when you launch this, sign me up." Or, "It's live. I'm paying." >> Right? Um and second one is and this again mistakes I made. You can fall in love with the solution. Oh man, I have the most beautiful way to do XYZ. No, you got to fall in love with the problem. >> Mhm.

Yep. Yeah, I totally agree. >> Okay, so I don't want to go on too long because I know you like going back and forth, but those are two like painful ones I wish I had known earlier. >> Yeah, I love that. what um let me ask you this. Obviously you have interviewed a lot of people. >> Um you know obviously kind of the whole mantra of the torque community is kind of helping people in their career and their job search and kind of just being a home base for people. Y >> what would be kind of some tips >> that you've seen or some some best practices you've seen from people you've interviewed?

Number one, in the interview process, >> the people I hired understood the interview was not about them. >> I don't actually want to hear >> about that >> about you, how you went to school, what you studied. >> You totally misunderstood this because you believed that it was an interview of you. It's not. The interview is your opportunity to say, "Hey, company or team where I want to work." Yeah, >> I totally get what you need. By the way, you're making chocolate chip cookies. I have sugar. >> Yeah, >> it's not about like, well, I spent a lot of time in baking school and I really enjoyed, you know, I don't care.

It's blah blah blah blah blah until I go, man, I've got the chocolate chip guy here. I got the girl doing the flour. I got the butter dude and I just the salt thing is killing me. And you walk in, you go, I have done the research in your company, Stephen. I know exactly. You are missing salt. I specialize in salt. And I'm like, done. when can you start? >> Yeah, I love that. I love that. I mean, I think that's so true. We talk about all the time and I talk about all the time. I think I think uh uh one of the biggest things, one of the biggest things I see time and time again is, and I think it's both sides.

I think a lot of time the company doesn't know what the problem they're trying to solve, which is a whole other conversation. But I think I think a lot of times uh the the the job seeker the the interviewer interviewe uh the job the the candidate doesn't take it upon themselves to far it out the problem as fast as possible. Um you know I I'll never forget when I was interviewing at a startup I joined after Veco where you know I was like well hey what what are you trying to solve here? Like they're like well I was like do you have a they were like we're hiring for a salesperson.

I said okay I've done sales. I said, "I do you do any sort of events or community or anything like that?" They're like, "No, we don't." I said, "Do you do any social media or content?" They're like, "No, we don't." And so then my next interview, I was I was able to go, "All right, well, here are how I can address those three or four areas." Right? And and I think that is allowed to serve me well um in my career is digging into the problem the company's actually having instead of just saying, "Here's my entire background." Because that at the end of the day, it's like you said, companies really don't care about your entire background.

They just want to know how you can help. >> Yes. solve their issues. >> Let's go back to something you said a moment ago which we should really talk about. >> Yeah. My dad worked at IBM from after his masters in engineering >> until he retired. >> I can't tell you how that is not happening again. Right? That era is over. >> You are now your own brand. >> You will work at 10 or 15 companies, start three in your career. It is you are straight up you are a company of one and you are making deals to go and join different teams at different times in your career when it benefits you and it benefits them.

>> Yeah. You just have to think about like how does my brand become really really valuable and you talked about on one of your AI episodes you're talking about hey man just open claude just start playing with it makes some mistakes understand code understand code work and you know you want to you you use Gemini at work didn't you say use Gemini >> yeah we use Gemini Gemini at work and then I use claude and now I'm trying out the whole new chat GBT work thing >> exactly and they're all just leaprogging each other it's amazing to be in this place where they are subsidizing us >> um to to use it and they're losing massive amounts of money so we can play with it.

But [clears throat] that's the way you have to think about is you have to think about like you are the brand now. >> Yeah. Well, Jason Jason I've talked about Blockbuster guy Jason you really hit it off with Jason with the girls film background but um Jason I've talked about this when he was working uh with me at at Torque. We talked about how um at the end of the day when it comes to the job search, you are the product and you have to sell your product into the company and the company has to buy you. >> And I think a lot of people don't view themselves as as a product.

And and and one of the things that um uh that Jason and I have talked about uh well no that we've experienced firsthand. We did so one of the things we've done is we do live resume reviews at conferences we go to. Right. If you want your resume review, stop by our booth. would give you real-time feedback. And Jason and I went to a data conference in Nashville in March and we were having like a lot of these people give us their resumes and finally I just they weren't good and finally I just asked a person I said hey would you call you like if you submitted this would you call >> look in the mirror would you date yourself?

>> They said no and so I'm like what are we doing here? Right. >> Right. Why are you wasting my time? >> Yeah. So again like I I I think you're spot on there. I think you're spot on. So, all right. So, I want to move into kind of the last half of this interview. Talk about what you're doing now. Uh talk about uh why you're so passionate about it and let's kind of get into that. >> Okay. I have a kid. I have lived an incredibly selfish life. >> Let's be straight up, right? >> Hey man, >> we got a green light. We're all going to move to Romania and shoot this thing for 6 months.

Cool. I have no wife or kid. I'll go to Romania six. Hey, man. My studio's got extra spot at the Toronto Festival this weekend. You want to go tomorrow? Yeah, fine. No one realized I'm right. Totally selfish. Fun way to live. Now I've got a wife that I love and I have an eight-month-old that is like my world, right? One of the things that really changed for me back when we decided to get pregnant year two years ago, right? >> Yeah. >> So, I was like, there is another generation who's going to inherit. I'm going to die and my kids are going to be part of a generation.

What have we done to make their world any better? And let me be straight up clear and I will say this to Most of the trillion dollar company's business model is steal your life. >> Mhm. >> Period. >> Full stop. Mark Zuckerberg does not want you actually getting a job, writing the next great American novel, creating the next app, opening a restaurant, doing anything. He wants you 80 years old on >> talking about how you could have ridden that, you could have started that company, you could have done this because that's how he gets his next 450T yacht. So in a world we have those kind of incentives, >> you got to ask yourself, >> how am I going to exist in a world that is designed to distract me?

The wealthiest companies on earth hire casino gaming designers to make their products. to make them absolutely addictive. >> Oh yeah. >> And that's what you're up against because let me let's be super clear. A lot of people listening to this, a lot of people in the world, >> they're going to be lazy. They're going to spend their time scrolling in reels, Tik Tok, whatever, you know, Twitter X, whatever your vice is, right? >> Yeah. >> Those products are beautifully made to keep you there. >> But there are some subset of the people listening, they're going to raise their hand going, "Fo, I'm not going to go to my grave with my great thing inside me.

And if you're one of those people that's like, "No, man. I'm going to do the thing, then you need to find the allies. You need to find the tools. You need to surround yourself in the environment where you're going to do that. And you are going to become the Michael Jordan of whatever it is. You are going to become, you know, the Maya Angelou of PO. You are going to be whatever that thing is like, >> you got to do it." And it's hard. And that is what I've been passionate about. Happily, I'm in a place in my life where like things are good. I can kind of like just help people.

Mhm. >> That's why I created Suka. >> I discovered flow states. >> First time I did that, >> I was like, why didn't someone tell me about this in college? I was like, this would have made college would have made a lot of things a lot easier if I understood flow states. >> Yeah. >> So, I'm going to pass the mic back to you. >> No, no, that that's good. Talk talk about flow states. I mean, I think most people know what flow states are, but just just for the context, talk about that. Talk about what you've learned. >> I know now it's become super popular.

Okay. So, I'm just be super honest. I was flying here from Austin where you know I live, right? I was going to SF a couple years ago and the next day I was going to meet with my team and what I thought is, you know, on the flight I'll um I'll illustrate I'll sort of hack together in Figma an idea I had for a feature we should build and then I'll show it to everyone the next day and if everyone in the room is like, "Oh, that's kind of cool. We should build it. Give it to real designers and engineers will make it." Right? So Alaska runs that non-stop from your SF.

Get on there. Captain's like, "Hey kids, Wi-Fi is out. Sorry. See an SFO." Right. [laughter] I'm like, "Okay, whatever." Take off. I start working. 50 minutes later, we're landing. We're going down. I was like, >> "Something's wrong with the aircraft. We're at Dallas Fort Worth. They're going to tell us, "Oh, the hydraulic system. We have to swap out." You know, >> dude, two hours and 40 minutes had gone by. I had no idea. None. And my designs were done. And I liked them. I don't know if you've done this. I had already prepared myself is loser mentality, right? I'd already prepared myself for, okay, I'm gonna hop in the Uber, grab a sandwich in the lobby, go up to the room, sit at the stupid little desk in the room, and try and like finish this and then pass out, right?

>> I got off the plane. I was done. >> I called a buddy of mine from the Uber. I was like, "Hey man, I'm an SF. I have a free night. You want to have dinner?" So, I related this to him. I was like, I had the weirdest experience. I thought like 15 minutes had gone by. Almost three hours had gone by. I did what I think is great work. and I felt great. And he's like, "Oh yeah, you're in a flow state." I was like, "A flow what?" He's like, "How do you get this far in your life without knowing what this is? It's like an amazing tool.

And if you're not using it, people around you are using it to, >> you know, lap you." >> Yeah. >> And that's where I started studying. I can describe what it is and and all that stuff, but that was for me the moment of like what? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, what what I mean talk talk about practically how does somebody because you know I I've I've always said I mean one one of my favorite parts about traveling is is is airport work and plane work. I feel like you do enter because there's no distractions. [clears throat] You're in the air, >> right? >> Um your brain I I've I I think I've heard stuff where like >> the oxygen levels do kind of like some weird things where like it makes you more creative.

I don't know if it's true or not, but [laughter] talk talk about how people You know, maybe can >> let's set the table for 30 seconds. I know there's a portion of the audience. They're like flow masters. They're floating in lotus position above their desk. And some people are like, I've heard about this stuff. It's becoming more popular. Is it? Right. So, Bor is a dude, this Hungarian American psychologist. His name is Mihi Chinsen Mihi. I spent a while learning how to say that. >> And he had a thesis. He said it's weird when you talk to high performers in very different disciplines, athletes and artists and inventors and and they talk about the concentrated state where they do the thing that makes them famous, right, than we know them for, >> right?

>> They talk about in very similar ways even though what they're doing is really different. He's like there's something to that. So he did all the research, did the interviews and at the end of it he wrote a book called flow. It's the seinal work. It's why we called a flow state. And he said the greatest thing. He's like, all these famous people I spoke to, they have their own words for it. I'm in the zone. Michael Jordan's thinking about like when I'm in the zone, it's me in the ball. You know, Einstein's thing about thought experiments and Picasso's the muses. And he's like, they all have their own words for it.

But I chose this word flow because it was the most beautiful metaphor for what I found, which is we are all on the river paddling to move ourselves forward. But if you align your boat with the current, it carries you. It magnifies your efforts. And that's what these people have figured out how to do. >> And it's a fantastic thing where he goes, "Here are the characteristics, man. When you're in a flow state, you stop secondguessing yourself. >> You kind of become one with the work. You do your best work faster than you think you can. Distractions fall away. Time falls away. And at the end of it, you often feel a sense of like uplift or joy as opposed to depletion and tired.

>> Sure. >> And then you know since then a lot of people have done research on how the hell do you get into flow state? Like what conditions help you get there? And that's really what I specialize in. >> And what do you what would you say? [snorts] >> Oh, I'll tell you straight up. This is how we designed suka. I did the research on like the Cutlers and the Newports and the you know Nears and all these guys talking about distraction. One of the big ones is music, right? And it can be sound. It doesn't have to be just music. It's your oral AU oral environment, right?

>> Wait, wait. So sound is actually a distraction because I know some people love sound. >> Sound can go either way. And I'll tell you this, this is the a lot of the research says for most people the sweet spot for their brain to drop in. And it takes 15 to 23 minutes to get into flow. You don't just sit down and go, I'm in a flow state. I'm Superman. Right? You got to sort of set the conditions and then your brain like falls into it, right? >> Mhm. For most people, it's 60 to 90 beats per minute. It's certain key signatures more than others, like D minor.

And it's music that is nonvocal, so you're not singing along with Blackpink or Britney Spears, your favorites, >> but it's in a weird zone where it's not music that you love where you're like, "Oh, I love this song." And it's not music you hate. It's in this weird sort of middle zone of like sort of like long melodic passages that lull you in and your brain goes, "Okay, cool. I'm in a safe spot. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> And I'll tell you, I had a, you know, I come from film. When we set up Suka, I have a bunch of friends who are film composers.

>> Yeah. >> Hey guys, here are the specs. Can you write me like a thousand hours of original music? And >> wow. >> You know, the thing is a lot of friends have time on their hands because let's be honest, film is not what it was 10 years ago, 20 years ago, right? >> So, I get all this original music, >> put it up there, organize it into playlist, which I thought was really helpful. Like, here's some lowfi playlists. Here's some like upbeat. Here's some down tempmpo like >> buddy of mine uh Julian who mixes Star Wars games. He works for Lucas Arts up in Marin.

>> Mhm. >> He calls me up. He goes, "Hey man, are you still doing that that flow state app?" I'm like, "Yeah, we're building right now." He goes, "I just got back from Nepal." Okay. Why are you in Nepal? Right. He's like, "Yeah." It was my kid. Um his kid graduated from high school, I guess, got into a good college. He's like, "What do you want for your graduation present?" He said, "I want to do a father-son trip to Nepal." >> Yeah. So he was like, "I just got back. >> One day we were in Catmando. It poured rain like so hard we could not go out." >> Yeah.

>> And it was this lush, warm, delicious rain. And I had my recording equipment cuz remember be a sound engineer. Like I had some recording equipment. I recorded two hours of rain. I got back I realized I have no idea what to do with it. I'm not going to use it in a Star Wars game. And I remember you're doing that that flow state thing that do you want it? >> And I was like for free? Sure. Try it. So we stuck up in the middle of the playlist. You can find it in there now. One playlist just called Himalayan Dream Rain. >> I love it.

>> Didn't publicize it. Became the third most popular playlist in our entire catalog. And I was like, "What the f?" Like, we paid we spent all this time and money making these beautiful orchestrated custom music and Rain is like this huge hit. So, it was an interesting lesson of like for some people their trigger is not music and it's about knowing yourself. So, it's interesting. This is a complete side note, but my um we have a we have a we have a me and my wife have a mutual friend and he's already retired at the ripe age of like 30 >> because he developed sleep sounds.

>> Oh, there that's awesome. Yeah. So he comes from an audio engineering perspective and he and and I literally use I fall asleep every night to his sleep sounds and if you think about it it's like 67 seconds one track and then it just loops all night. It's crazy. Anyways, um yeah, totally agree. I love that. Anything from because I think one of the things so I I've said this and I think this flow state works great, right? I think it works really it works really in tandem with the job search. Um, obviously from a day-to-day perspective, but from a job search perspective, um, you know, I I I talk about this.

I I think, um, limiting distractions, right? Um, you know, I I experimented with the brick with my phone. Um, >> okay. I have a question for you. Stop. Stop for a moment. Okay. >> When we were building Sugo, I looked at like 40 different apps that all help you with something. Most of them are single feature things. Like, I help you with distractions. I block whatever. I help you with music. I help you with, you know, whatever tasks. >> Mhm. >> Something I found, and I'm wondering if you find this to be true, is that almost all the ones were about blocking your websites or bricking your phone.

They were really negative. They were really like, "I have to punish you. You're bad. Like, I have to block you and stop." Their language was not like, "Hey man, I'm helping you achieve." It was more like, >> that's interesting. >> You have bad instincts and I'm here to protect you from yourself. And I hated that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, >> did you see that? You know, I that actually did not that actually I did not pick up on that. I think that's very astute of you. I think from a marketing, branding, and kind of copyright perspective, I think that's fascinating. No, I mean, but to be honest with you, I I've gotten to the point now where I mean, you know, I think I've trained myself and I'm so busy where I don't need those things because I I don't have time to get on my phone.

>> Yep. >> Um but but but but I also I'm a bad boy. All right, Michael, relax. Um, so, uh, but basically I think, um, I think when it comes to job search, here's, and I'm curious kind of hear your thoughts. So, I tell people, I think a lot of people think they have to approach the job search like a job, eight hours. I think the problem with that is that you can get pretty burned out pretty quickly. Take breaks, go on walks. Um, I I I think um, the reality of the situation is you have to take care of yourself. I know a lot of um, a lot of my best ideas have come not behind the computer, which is hilarious, right?

I mean, literally, we I we're we're working on a project for a client that we're going to throw some meetups, and I was like, man, like, what's what's the framing here? And I was I was bottlefeeding my daughter >> this [laughter] weekend on my bed on a Saturday and it clicked and I was like, it's so funny that I'm not behind my computer and had this idea. So, what what what are your thoughts on that? Especially for people on the job search, you feel like more work, grind it out, all that stuff. This is now proven to be true that there was maybe 10, 15, 20 years ago this belief that it's like if you're not grinding at 2 am, you're not actually an engineer.

You're not actually a great that thing. If you're not drinking heavily and writing at your typewriter or 4 a.m. like Hemingway, like you're not a real and what you just said is spot on true. Do you use a Pomodoro timer, by the way? >> No, I don't. >> Okay. Do you think in case anyone doesn't know >> I know exactly what you're talking about, though. So there was a dude, this guy Franchesco Churel, Italian guy. He was like, I think it's healthier if you set some sort of rhythm, a cadence of like working and taking a break, standing up, going to get some water, go for a walk, whatever, right?

So he used a tomato kitchen timer, which pomodor means tomato. >> And he would set it for 25 minutes of work, and then instead of for five minutes, we'd go like on a walk or go scratch or something, right? So when we were building Suka, we made that kind of the heartbeat of the thing where you start it, it'll count down from 25 or you can click it, make it whatever number. Like I personally do 50 and tens because I find 50 is a better cadence for my brain. >> But it does exactly what you said, which is it builds on the research that says actually grinding it out.

The marginal value of hour four is really low if you haven't taken some breaks and really recharged, right? >> Yeah. So that concept, taking breaks, however you want to do it, they're free Pomodoro timers. We built in a Suka. You can have lots of options there. But it's actually really smart to say, you know, there's a good moment. Let me go get a glass of water and clear my head. Right. >> Yeah. Um, and in general, this is something that I would love for people to take away, which is if something works in real life, if you're modeling an online behavior, sometimes the smartest thing you can do is say suppose like the internet, computers, electro, suppose that didn't exist.

How does that get solved in real life? How do people deal with that over thousands of years? Right? Let me give you an example. This is something you brought up a moment ago. I'm studying. In the middle of studying, I pick up my phone and start scrolling reels or Tik Tok or something, right? Not a good behavior, right? Is the thing that is natural in human life to have my phone brick or to have my computer lock up? No. If I was sitting there like if you and I were in study hall, Taylor, it was just like, Stephen, hey man, is that helping you? That'd be all I need to be, oh no, dude.

Thanks. Yeah, yeah, I got to back. It's just that little thing of like, hey man, we're in this together. like we came to study hall. I don't if you did that in college, >> but you're in a study hall together. You sit at the communal table and you see one of your friends like start screw out. You're like, "Hey man, like we got the chem final tomorrow." And you're like, "Oh yeah, thanks." >> That's basically what we modeled in Suka. We just said, "Hey man, if you open YouTube in the middle of working or you pick up your phone, all you need is a little voice in your computer goes, "Hey man, I see you're on your phone.

Is that helping?" And you as an adult can be like, "Ah, you know, no, it's not." And then get back to it. And it's a much more natural way of designing technology to say in real life, what would it be? Well, if I was in study hall, Taylor would nudge me and be like, "Hey, dude, like get to it." You're like, "Yeah." Yeah. >> Right. >> I love that. >> And I think people can feel that when you actually model on this is how real life works over thousands of years. And I'm just making it a little easier using the computer. >> Yep. I love that.

I love that. Um, as we start to wrap up here. >> Oh, there you go, Stacey. Good for you. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I saw that come in. I think that's Michael. Is Michael the one like a bad boy and what's good for the body is good for the mind. Yeah. >> Um let's see. >> Yeah. >> So for someone Okay, so this is a good question. I like this one. Again, kind of bringing it back to jobs career stuff. If someone in our community who jobs uh who's job hunting right now, what's one thing they should stop doing and one thing they should start doing today based off your experiences?

[snorts] Straight up when we began this chat and we talked about look at the place that you want to join whether it's the team the company the whatever it is right and you go what are they missing you are then going to do part two which is how do I position myself as the missing ingredient which I think we were talking about chocolate chip cookies as a joke like oh [ __ ] they're missing salt >> chocolate chip cookies yeah >> okay so when I go in that door I need to look like salt >> right >> so you need to do that you need to figure out what's the missing thing part one part two make myself that and that's really honest to God why we built Suka.

It's why there are a lot of focus apps is to say if you're not focusing well if you're not really if you're spending time on socials believing that somehow scrolling through Insta or you know X or whatever is improving it's not. >> Yeah. >> The person who's going to get the job is the one who focuses on I'm going to become salt today. You know, I I again, you brought something. I I I told people I said >> Michael is funny, dude. I'm >> Michael's great. Michael is a Michael is a vibes guy in the community. >> No, dude. No, dude. >> So, uh for me, I I tell people, you know, a lot of people have come to me and they're like, "Hey, like if you could give me one piece of advice from the job search, what would it be?" And here's what I would say.

I would say um delete the apps off your phone that are a distraction and leave LinkedIn. And when you feel the need to to to get on social media, get on LinkedIn, DM people, like, comment, make a post, because in my perspective, people like, "Well, I don't have time to post LinkedIn." You do. You just get distracted, right? And and so for me, like that's what I that's what I would say is like, hey, like get if if you want if your problem is I I can't seem to network, I can't seem to post online, I want to get better at that, delete the distractions and do that.

But I would also tell folks too kind of uh based off what you said is um at the end of the day, especially with kids, the biggest distraction is this. >> Yeah. like like like Iraight I've learned that and I I'm I'm still awful at it. My wife yells at me at least three times a week to get off my phone. So, you know, I'm still trying to get better at it. Um having to go on LinkedIn, that's a good punishment. Yeah, but people people like I don't have time to post. I don't use LinkedIn. What's the best way to use LinkedIn more? I get that question all the time.

Just >> Okay, so I'm gonna take actually a contrary um position to yours just for the sake of being interesting, which is >> I love it. And this is me speaking as an N of one. This is not a survey of a billion people. But in my experience, the great opportunities that have come my way have not been from a a broad catch sort of thing of like I posted on this like I'm looking for left-handed plumbers and I got a great left-handed plumber. No, it has been from a couple of high quality, high signal friends. >> Yeah. >> And those are friends I do not need to post, DM, whatever.

It is the ones that I see for coffee or I hang out with. We do a Zoom every couple weeks and that's when it's like, "Dude, you don't know this, but like an EVP at Sony's about to leave. I was just found out at breakfast. You'd be perfect for it. Let me get you in the door." It is not from LinkedIn posting all the AI slop. I open LinkedIn every now and then. It is like endless slew of AI ridden garbage going, I just wanted to humble brag about how, you know, at my company I increased, you know, sales. It's like what? >> Yeah. No one no one reads that or cares.

It comes from like talking to Taylor and one day Taylor's like, "This would be perfect for Pury. I should introduce him." That's it. That's how my career's worked. >> Yep. I love that. All right. We're going to run through a bunch of rapid fire questions. I really like these. It kind of gets in your brain a little bit and then we'll wrap up. >> Um, all right. Underrated or overrated? >> All right. Hustle culture. >> The concept, the the goal of it is awesome. But the implementation of grinding out all day and all night, the returns are very low. So, it's overrated. >> I love it.

Working from home, >> personally, I love it. But here's the deal. I'm at a point where I have my network. >> Sure. >> If I were starting out, I want to be in person with more people because it's just how you bond. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Sloen is real. Michael, I'm with you, man. >> Yeah. >> And by the way, Chris, good luck with your uh your prominent overtime. Um >> Yeah. No, you got >> four day work week. >> 4 day work week. You know, here's a hard one. My old partner in one of my companies was is German and was a big proponent of like super disciplined, four days, 10 hours, have a long weekend, blah blah.

I can't say it works for me, but I think it worked for him. >> Okay, I love it. Like for me, I will have an idea on a Saturday morning after I I'll be in yoga for example >> and sometime we should do an episode about how like the default mode and the executive mode networks work in your brain. But I will come out of yoga and I'll be like, "Oh my god, that's exactly what we should do." And I'll turn to Laura. I was like, "Hey, can you watch the little rascal for an hour? I just need to get this thing out while it's fresh in my head." >> Yeah.

>> It's not a 4 day work week, but it is, you know, kind of how life works right now. Sometimes you have ideas at weird times. You're like, "You need to carve out an hour." >> Oh, yeah. Um uh uh inbox zero overrated underrated >> kind of uh depending on how you do it underrated. I think in I practice inbox zero but what that does not mean is my inbox has zero in it. It means that my priority inbox has zero in it. >> Sure. >> The slop just doesn't get attention. >> Yeah. Morning routines >> 100%. And by the way, here's one I'm going to share.

>> This is probably the best thing I will share in our chat. If you in the morning before you pick up your phone decide on what is the one thing you can do today that will move your life forward and you do it before you go to sleep. Do that for 30 days. Your life will change. And it is one thing. It's not, oh, there's seven things I need to get to today. It's not a to-do list. Think of the one thing. It's not something that takes you months. It's not like write my book. No, no, no. It's due today. The one thing you can do today to move your life forward.

>> I love that. >> Before you touch your phone. >> I love that. Um, time blocking. >> Huge. >> Yeah. >> Huge. Matter of fact, you'll uh you'll be hopefully feel special in that no one can book time with me in the morning because that is when I do my flow work, my flow state. And I knew this was the right time for you. So, I made an exception for you. But if you actually looked at my calendarly, you would never be able to find a time at noon. Period. >> Same. Same. I usually just do my meetings in the in the afternoons. >> Oh, and hang out at the coffee shop.

This so funny in our in in Suka, we call the group chat the coffee shop. So like in between in between work sessions, you can drop in there and talk to other people what you're doing. It's literally called the coffee shop as an icon of a cup of coffee. It's so funny. >> I love it. Um AI productivity tools overrated or underrated? >> A whole mix. Like we have AI aspects. >> Sure. market what we're doing as AI. >> Sure. >> But I think there's an aspect of, you know, machine learning, deep learning where you do start to become more helpful, >> but it as a category, I feel like AI just gets slapped onto everything, you know, kind of like with coffee, everyone wants to say mold-free now, you know.

>> I love it. Um, raising venture capital. >> Okay, this is a rapid fire one because this is this is a this is a deeper answer. Okay, I'll tell you this. So I've raised a bunch of venture. >> Sure. >> I will tell you this for some stuff when you know you have product market fit, it is an amazing accelerant. It's like we know exactly our ICP. We know how to tickle them and make them squeal and we just need more money to do more of that every day. Right? That's a great use of venture. Really bad use of venture which I learned in my second uh startup after Fox was because we had a couple million dollars lying around.

It let us not find product market fit. Almost be like lazy about product market fit. Yeah. >> Because it covers over problems like unit economics. >> Yeah. >> It cost me 40 cents to make this cookie. I sell it for $2. Good deal. It cost me $2 to make this cookie. I sell it for 40. Bad deal. Venture >> can distract you from the bad unit economics. So I would say venture is good if you have product market fit and you're like I need to accelerate. Not I have to experiment around. No man. I love that. Um, all right. Quick choices. Let me give you two options.

Hollywood or startup land. >> Hollywood doesn't exist anymore. So, startup land. >> There you go. Creative chaos or perfect process. >> Creativity is, and again, this is another episode we could do to talk about creativity and some of the most creative people I've seen. >> There is a chaotic nature to creativity. That is the nature of creativity. >> So process is fantastic for some things. Hey man, this is how we get our work done. >> Deep work in the Your audience is hilarious. Okay, cool. >> Uh uh let's see here. Slack off or notifications off? >> Oh, we allow you to just mute your Slack and if someone tries to slack you while you're working, it just says, "Hey man, I'm in a flow session." >> Okay.

I like >> just so they know you're not going to respond until later. >> I like that. Uh, ship it now or polish it longer. >> I've used to believe polish it longer. And I'll tell you why I changed is I look back on certain mistakes I made and I think if I had known earlier that that was not getting traction, I would have changed it sooner instead of waiting. So it's it is true. There's, you know, there's a concept of minimum viable product and that's sort of evolved into like minimum minimal marketable product like can you figure out in some way an early version of this to figure out do people want this?

Does my ICP love this or not? >> Before you build the entire thing, I think that's a really important concept. >> I love that. >> I'm not alone with that, but yeah. >> Best career advice that you've ignored. Final few questions. Oh, straight up that one about uh product market fit. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. And just the making sure people pay for it like that that I didn't hear my friends that were in the valley give me that advice >> the right way. And in hindsight, I was like, "Dude, you told me this and I just didn't listen to you because we had all this >> venture money around." So, I was like, "Oh, we'll figure it out later." And they were totally right.

>> What are you optimizing your life for right now? Um, I find that my life works better when I do time block out two hours every morning to do the deep work that I used to take a whole day to [ __ ] around and do. Sorry, I cursed. Sorry. >> No, you're fine. No, let it rip, man. All right, last last question. Finish this sentence. Success without happiness is >> Elon Musk. Fair enough. Yeah, I had dinner with him twice because his ex-wife really wanted to work on a movie at Fox. >> Oh, no way. You've had dinner with Elon twice. >> Yeah, tiny little dinner parties like the six of us.

>> Crazy. >> This I mean I'm talking like this is 15 years ago. >> Sure. This is Yeah. Yeah. >> This is with a Tula the redhead and just such a smart guy and so deeply angry and unhappy. It was just painful to be around him. >> Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. I love it. I love it. All right, Stephen, we wrap up here, man. >> Any last closing thoughts? Any place where people can find you? Check out, go ahead. >> Oh, okay. Easiest thing is if someone actually wants to develop a flow practice, this is why we made what we made. I produce it for free.

I don't I don't collect a paycheck. We just did it because this seems like for Tony and me, the best thing we can do for the world. We both have kids. You can try it at the suka. T- su kha.co. Suka means happiness in Sanskrit. So, the Suka company. Um, and if there's anyone who just wants advice or wants help or something, email me, Taylor, you can put my email address in the in the notes, whatever. It's totally fine. >> Yeah. Cool. I love it. I love it. Awesome. All right, y'all. Go connect with Stephen. I'll drop uh his information in the chat after the the stream.

Y'all have a good one. Stephen, stay on backstage so I can say bye to you. You guys have a great one. This is our last GC this week. Next week, we are week five of using AI for your job search. We're going to be looking at crafting very specific DMs. It's going to be interesting. Going to try to filter out the AI slot, but also use it uh for extended research. So, y'all have a good one. We'll see you on the tour this week. >> Thank you all for listening, and I'll I'll curse more, Chris. Thank you. It's not Facebook.