get promoted w/o being the loudest in the room

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Good morning, everybody. Jennifer, I just came back from Argentina. So I know good morning. Buenos Dias. Hi. Everybody, that's all I got. Buenos Dias, Buenos Tades, Buenos Noches. And then I can order two cold brews in Spanish. That's about it. Nice. That's perfect. Yeah, and there's a bathroom. So obviously the very important things. So good morning, everybody. Excited for this episode. Jennifer and I were chatting backstage. I think this is going to provide a ton of value to people. And obviously I will get Jennifer to introduce yourself here in a minute. But for those of you tuning in, again, the community team, the TORT community team, we were down in Argentina last week.

I usually do recaps of streams, but we got a busy week this week with guests. So the TLDR, Argentina was great. We had our booth was four or five lines deep, pretty much the entire time. The demand for what we offer, not only a AI platform to match you to JAWS, but then also a community where we bring in guests like Jennifer to help you is obviously what was very much in high demand. So it was great. The food was amazing. Jennifer, they don't do butter with bread. That was an interesting one. It's all olive oil. They do olive oil. Everything. And if you're a chimichurri fan, I'm a big chimichurri fan.

Like, instead of like when you go to a Mexican restaurant, they give you salsa. Every restaurant in Argentina gave you their own version of chimichurri. So that was great. But I'm back. It kind of took off yesterday. Got an IV. I came back to a sick house of kids. So that's cool. So got an IV and honestly still not 100 from traveling. That was a quick trip. And the flight was 10 hours. 10 hours. They're back. So anyways, but excited to be back. Excited to be with Jennifer this morning. Again, Jason, it's good to see you. Yes. My guests do bring a ton of value.

Then there's me. Yes, absolutely. Just got to work with me. So he jokes with me. I always tell people, listen, if you watch this now in the future and you want to get updates when I go live with folks like Jennifer, shoot me a text. This is my number. I'm actually going to be pushing more. If you need help in your job search and you just want to ask a question, you can just text that number. You don't have to text live. But if you want specifically to be updated when I go live with guests, let me know. Also, too, listen, I was talking to Jennifer backstage.

We're obviously going to plug her book that's coming out. But we do. We are rolling out our perks and partnerships tab. So we've had, if you have not gotten into our platform yet, we have a AI email provider, Slashie. I'm friends with a founder. He hooked up the tour community with a free month of Slashie. I use it. It's great. Believe it or not, it is an email that you can find things when you search your past. It's great. Imagine that. And then also, too, shout out SkyDive. They are an agentic AI platform. We actually use them in the community team to manage our team.

But they gifted the first 100 users a $100 of free tokens. So it's a $10,000 value. So shout out SkyDive for that. We also, my buddy at Seat Coffee here in Nashville is a founder of a coffee company. He hooked the tour community up with 15% off. So go check that out. And then also, I'm speaking at my Menom Developer Conference in Cincinnati. We got $30 off that. And then I got some free tickets coming for all things open in October. And then we're going to add Jennifer's book as well. So again, we were rolling out our perks and partnerships and programs. So again, check out Community Hub on the platform if you have not already.

All right, Jennifer, that's enough of me. Yeah, and we got some people tuning in this morning. Let's give a quick background about you, who you are, what you do, what you have done. And I'll start peppering you with questions. Excellent. Well, it sounds like there's incredible value. So thank you for sharing that with your listeners. So Jennifer Markoo, I am a leadership coach. And I focus on introverts. My background is I have spent about 30 years in the corporate world at American Express. And my last stop was at Microsoft for about 10 years. And realized I'm a lifelong introvert, realized that I did not fit in from a style perspective that most of the leaders in large corporations tend to be more extroverted.

And when I decided to start my own coaching business back and I started, I thought about it in 2019, but actually started in 2020, I realized that I could help folks who were like me who are introverted, who wanted to have greater impact, but not wanting to change who they were. So I really focused on introverts and started a coaching program, started some training programs, and then ultimately decided to write a book, which is coming out on Tuesday, October 6, called Lead with Quiet Confidence, a practical guide to success for introverts. So I'm excited to be here. I love it. So let me ask, let's start.

What do you define as an introvert? Like, like, like, like, like I'm curious. Let's start there. Yeah, that's a great question, because I think there's a lot of misperceptions of what introversion is. The simple answer is it's where you get your energy. If you go to a party and you have a great time with your friends and you come home, do you want to just be alone and re-energize? Or do you want to go to the next party? So introverts gain their energy by being alone and extroverts gain their energy by being with others. So it's a very simple definition. Some people think introversion is shyness.

It is not shyness, it's a social anxiety. There is an overlap between shyness and introversion, but there are shy extroverts and non shy introverts. There you go. There you go. Yeah, I would say I'm an introvert, but I'm not shy. Oh, yeah. For people on the street, they can obviously attest to that. So talk me through. I mean, there's so many ways we can go about this, but if there's one thing that if people just tuned in real quick and then have to go to a meeting, what's like the big thing that you want to get across right now? Yeah, I would say the big message in my book is really about do one thing out of your comfort zone.

Why is that? Is because confidence is built through action. And so I don't say, hey, go network, go meet 100 people. No, just meet one person. Have just one conversation. And that is the way for introverts to be able to change behaviors, but not who you are. And we can use all of our strengths, getting curious and being good listeners and observing, but not having to be the gregarious, charismatic person that we think we have to be in that relationships. I like to say, it's more important to be the most interested person, not the most. Yes, yes, absolutely. I think that's one thing I've learned.

I think curiosity and interest right now is to me is the unlock, right? Because I feel like, especially with loud people, and I know a lot of these people in my life, they're just, they just like to be loud. They're not really interested. And I think that's incredibly important. Let me ask you this. What's been the unlock for you, right? I mean, obviously your background at Microsoft and kind of working up the ladder, what do you think's the thing that you kind of put in your tool belt to really navigate this? Really navigate corporate America? Yeah, I think, first of all, my first reaction in the corporate world was, wow, I'm different from everyone else.

And it made me question whether I truly could be a leader, because I would get feedback like, speak up, lead out more in front. And I'm like, oh, that's so uncomfortable. And that's so not me. And so the first realization was, I am completely normal. So there is nothing wrong with me. And to have that confidence in myself and my style that I didn't have to change who I was. That said, I had an experience, excuse me, I had an experience where I was up for a promotion to general manager at Microsoft. And I had all of the expertise. And I was actually the interim GM for several months and got incredibly positive feedback.

I was very focused on managing people. But the reality is I didn't get the job. And I was shocked because I thought I had everything you need for this job. Well, the reality is a person who got the job was much more visible, was much better at networking, was much better at influencing all the things that I kind of ignored in my career. I thought as most introverts, just do a good job and your work will be recognized. Well, that's not the reality, right? You have to tell your boss about what you're doing. You have to have that network. And what I saw face to face with this new leader was whenever we had an open position, she had five people on her list, who she would say, would be great for this job.

When budget cuts were coming, she knew before everyone else. There was really tangible benefits for being a leader who was much more visible, who was networking and influencing more. That was the turning point, I think I realized, oh, it's not just about competence, right? There are other behaviors, things that are unnatural, uncomfortable for me that I need to be moving towards or developing that is uncomfortable for me. And when I realized that, I did it in my way. So instead of just saying, hey, everyone, look at me, I started getting involved in a project, for instance, I was involved in a women's group, which I managed for our smaller team that we are starting a bigger one for the larger corporation.

And so I worked with the corporate vice president, and that is a way that she saw my work. And she was one of the people at the table when they were talking about general manager promotions. And so that was an example. I just showed my passion. I showed my competence, but in a way that was different than just being at my desk and doing my job. Yeah, yeah. What do you think, this is so good. What do you think, so if somebody's watching this, and again, if everybody's tuned in, hello, I see all the comments coming in. I appreciate it. Alex, David, Sebastian, it's great to see you all.

Roxy is good to see you, my team member. If people are listening now in the future watching it, what, and they're like, all right, Jennifer, like this sounds good. Like give me like, like what should I start today to start doing if I'm uncomfortable being loud and obnoxious? Yeah. Well, the goal is not to be louder than obnoxious. Yeah. People like me, I don't think I could ever be described as loud and obnoxious. So don't feel like that's the goal. But for instance, for speaking up, is if you don't normally speak up in a meeting, say one thing in a meeting. Or you usually say two things, maybe say three things.

And some of the challenge of speaking up, it's not that we don't have things to say. Sometimes it's our brain takes longer to think through ideas. So sometimes the best idea from an introvert comes tomorrow, not in the meeting. But unfortunately, our work environments are like, let's brainstorm and all the extroverts are like, you know, vomiting ideas. I don't know. Not only good, but they have, that's how their brains work. They're literally biologically wired differently than introverts. So don't beat yourself up that you don't have ideas in the meeting. But you can flip that around and say, well, let me just ask a question. And sometimes the most strategic question can really impact and move the conversation forward.

A super simple example of that. What does success look like for this meeting? Like how many times have we gone into a meeting? Like, why are we? Yeah, all the time. Yeah. Yeah. And another one is something that we can be very good at as introverts, which is observing what's happening. So it's summarizing. So it sounds like we're concluding X, right? So it's using that observation and that thought process. You're not coming up with a new idea, but you are using your strengths to contribute to the meeting. And so people remember that you contributed not exactly what you said. Yeah. I love that. I love that.

Let me, let's, I'm gonna go into some of these questions that I created just because I actually like a few of them that I created. So for someone interviewing right now, right? Cause I mean, you know, kind of bringing it back to the, to the root of this stream is just helping people in their careers and their job search. Or someone's interviewing right now. How do they show impact without sounding like they're bragging? Right? I think this is one of the biggest things I hear when I speak and when I, you know, network and I'm at these events like, well, I don't want to brag, I don't want to brag.

How can, how can they like, what's an actual answer you'd want to hear? Right. In an interview or a just a jump? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In an interview, but then you can also just take it to daily work too. Okay. So, introverts tend, no art do not like bragging, right? They don't like self promotion. It feels icky. You're like, I don't want to be that guy who's always talking about himself. And so we are actually much more reserved and sharing our accomplishments. And so the challenge in an interview is they're evaluating you based on your accomplishments and how you come up and how confident you are.

And for an introvert who's more reserved and who's more quiet and who says, well, I just managed this thing, right? As opposed to I lead a team that had a hundred percent increase in revenues that, you know, reduce costs by 50%. So I think there's a combination of preparing. So you absolutely need to prepare because your natural default language will be soft and not as impressive as it could be. Who is be aware of the language, right? Managing versus leading to very different impressions. And usually I think a introvert would say, well, I managed this project versus I led this project. Regardless of what you did, the use of the word lead is much more important.

So be very aware of the verbs that you use, similar to writing your resume. Then the third is that traditional, make sure you put in outcomes, right? And introvert is always thinking, well, my outcomes speak for themselves. I don't have to brag about them. Well, no one will know what your outcomes are unless you're sharing them. So which goes to the, there was some research on MBAs. And this was specific to women, but the most important driver of whether, and this is recent MBA grads, of whether these women succeeded was not whether they asked for promotions, not whether they took on special projects. The number one impact was whether their boss knew what they were doing.

Yeah. Right? And so the introvert, so like I saw that huge problem, but, you know, since I solved it, I don't have to tell my boss about it. Right. Right. So a simple, like in your one on one, you know, even if you don't want to say, Hey, boss, I did this big important thing. You should probably say that. But even if you say that. Yeah. But just put it on your update and say, Hey, we're boss. I want to talk about these three issues. And by the way, I saw this big important thing and I resolved this conflict and I'm moving forward on this project.

We talked about last time. So letting people know. So I think there's this feeling if I talk about myself, it looks like self promotion, but you can think about it in two ways. If you don't tell people what you are doing, they won't know and they won't give you the credit or the reward or the job. And then the second thing is about self promotion. We think about it. It's all about me. But the reality is when you're telling other people, especially colleagues or people in other departments, you could actually be helping them. So if you reframe it from, let me toot my own horn to let me see how I can help others because they can say, Oh, I'm working on a similar project.

You know, I'm, you know, Jennifer is a person to go talk to about these types of things that I can go help them, but I wouldn't be able to help them unless they know about what I was talking about. Yeah, I love that. That's so good. I think, yeah, I mean, you know, obviously, we are a part of Ron said digital, which is a massive organization. And I think I think one of the biggest things that I've seen, especially for me and my team is just always communicating upward, right? Is like, you know, here's what we're done. Here's what we've done. Here's what we're doing.

Like, and I think I think even if I I've heard the word TPS reports, I don't know exactly what that is, but basically like updating like what you've done like every week, like, I think even if that is not required in your organization, especially if you're trying to establish yourself, especially if you're new in the organization, I think updating your boss every week with a few lines of, Hey, here's what I've done. I know you're not asking for it, but I just want to give this to you. I think it could go a super long way. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's a super long way. So let's see here.

Let me let me ask you this. When it comes to when it comes to networking, right? One thing you said to me on when we were backstage is you just started to have a call with one person, right? Like, like you kind of chipped away at it. And that's something that we I think do a really good job. Shout out a few of y'all in the tort community. They're doing coffee chats and they're posting on LinkedIn about what they chat about. Can you talk about the impact that even just a one on one conversation can have over time with multiple people? Yep. So let me start with a scary fact for introverts.

According to LinkedIn in 2022 survey, 85% of jobs are filled through networking. So if we introverts don't want to participate in networking, we're missing out on huge opportunities. So the question is networking all sounds like a horrible, horrible word, right? Because I when I hear that word of the big ballroom full of strangers and I definitely want to, you know, get out of there. So let me talk about networking in two ways. Sometimes we do have to be in a big ballroom with strangers. You know, the conference you were at, you mentioned, well, there's a bunch of, you know, engineers and, you know, it's super uncomfortable talking to one another.

But sometimes we are in environments like that. And so I would say there's a couple strategies for the big ballroom with strangers. One, I have many clients who just set a goal to say, I'm going to talk to three people. And when I get through, I'm done, right? And giving them permission. You don't have to meet everyone. You don't have to find the, you know, the golden person who's going to find you a job, it's just going through the reps, going through the practice of it. Two is use your strengths, curiosity, your listening abilities, your observation. So curiosity, I mean, ask questions that you care about the answer.

Not, oh my gosh, introvert's hate talking about the weather unless you're a meteorologist and you're probably really geeky and into that. But like, don't ask about the weather. Like, if you want to know something about what they're doing, like, what's a challenge that's really interesting to you at work? If that's something that's interesting to you or, you know, who was the best speaker? What was the best presentation or what were your takeaways? Or what are you streaming these days? I want to watch, you know, binge watch something good. So make sure the content of your questions is something you care about because it will make it much easier to continue the conversation.

And that leads me to prepare. Prepare the questions you want to ask. That's super easy. I just gave you a couple there, but instead of in the moment say, oh, what am I going to ask this person? You can prepare those questions. Because again, introverts are not great at speaking, you know, in the moment, but we are very good at preparing. The other thing is, yes, you will have to talk about yourself. So compare that. You know, most people would say, well, I'm a manager at this company. And, you know, I hope in customer experience. OK, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So create something that doesn't have your title, perhaps doesn't even have your company.

Like I help, you know, build customer experiences. So our customers can save time and money. Right. Oh, that's interesting. Like, what kind of customers, you know, how do you save that? You know, and instead of I'm a software engineer and blah, blah, blah. And so prepare that question for yourself. And then the other pieces try to manage the environment in a big ballroom of people. Look for people on the edge who are by themselves, not each other, likely their introverts. Go talk to them with your prepared questions. So what do you think about the speakers and start the conversation? Now, if you're at, let's say, a bar or restaurant, you know, maybe say, hey, can we you know, move towards the table so it's not so loud near the bar or move out in a conference center?

Can we move out to the hall and have a conversation? Or my favorite is I'd love to share a LinkedIn information and can we set up a one on one? Yes, because networking is really just a conversation. And introvert absolutely can have conversations, especially if it's something, a topic that they care about. So make sure you're arriving the conversation to topics you care about and creating an environment where you will do your best. I love that. I love that. Yeah. I mean, I think one thing I've seen over the course of, and I'm sure, Jennifer, you've seen this too, kind of with your work is that I think the people who really stand out my brain are the ones that tie into professional and personal really well.

Right. So it's like, it's like, hey, you know, I currently, you know, for me, I, you know, I lead community at the world's largest staffing company, but I also live on a farm with three horses, a miniature donkey and a corgi. Right. So then all of a sudden I'm the horse guy, you know, or, you know, I gave a talk to a high school here in Nashville two weeks ago. And I was going around the room and I was trying to get these students to like, you know, tell me what they do. And, you know, one guy was like, you know, he worked at a car wash.

Another guy, you know, served tables at or at a restaurant I love or one was a life guard. So by the end of the conversation, I started just calling them car wash guy or, you know, or, you know, life guard guy. But the thing is, is like, when I see them next time, oh, you're the life guard guy, right? Or you're the superstar car wash guy. And I think being able to tie that in allows us to because like no one's going to remember like, oh, this person, like you said, oh, no, you know, senior director, manager of programs that so and so no one's going to remember that.

Right. People can remember me. I'm a corky. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so talk. All right. So one of the things so I admittedly am an introvert, right? And I know that's people don't believe that. But like I need downtime. When I go to conferences, I'm in my room by I try to be in my room or eight or nine o'clock, not in Argentina because people just eat dinner at like 10 p.m. That was brutal. One of the things that I have seen and I'm curious to to hear your thoughts on this is like using like email and social or or like like really a virtual medium to cover more ground.

Like I realized that if you if you put me in a room of strangers, like I'm I'm going to fall apart. I'm a fall apart like for real. But if I can get a list or if I know who's coming, I'm usually like on LinkedIn, messaging them using X following them up on email. Have you have you used that at all? Do you have that in your arsenal? Absolutely. So I think we were talking before we started a little bit about how I did business development, but the background on that is in 2016 I went to a training that I had to identify five things I would be doing in my career in five years, which was fantastic.

It's a great thing if you're thinking through what do you want to do next in your career. The first thing on my list was do my job but at a higher level in my same company. The second on my list was to have another be in another company doing a similar job at a higher level. The third thing was do you have my own leadership and coaching business, but no business development. We all know like if you have a small business, there is no way you're going to get out of doing business development. You need to sell somehow. So I kind of at the time crossed that off.

I'm twenty twenty when I started my own business like, OK, how am I going to get customers? So what I did and I mentioned this too before, I literally started my coaching business March 16th, 2020. Perfect time. Nothing was going on. Nothing was going on during that time. That was the week at least in Washington State that we closed down everything. So the good news was that I was not piney. What is everyone doing at work? And there was no water cooler conversations because everyone was home. They're wondering what they were doing. So what I did for business development is I reached out to people I knew.

And again, this would be another tip on networking. Start with people you know, start with the friendly. Don't start with the cold calls first. And I started with the friendlies people I knew and people also I knew who were likely introverted and potentially I would want to coach them and they would tell me about what was happening in their life, which we all had a lot to say because we were all confused and they would eventually ask me what I was doing. I started my coaching business and tell them my story and then literally in the last three minutes without saying, do you need a coach or do you know someone who needs a coach, they would usually say something like, I think I need a coach because I was showing up in a very coachy way.

Yeah, suddenly I had a prospect. And so it was doing business development in my introverted way. So I think that's my main message is you don't have to become this extrovert. You don't have to do it the right way. You have to do it your way using your strengths. And for me, it was reaching out to people I knew it was being a good listener showing up in a coachy way. And I would see being there to deliver to them services that they were looking for. Yeah, I've said this in the past when I started my career at Vayco back in 2011, I worked alongside this guy who was my mentor.

And he was like the antithesis of me at the time, right? He like he was really good in large crowds. He wrote motorcycles. He he he drank. Coronated. Yeah, he drank bourbon and whiskey. Like I hate bourbon and whiskey. More of a rosé type of guy, you know, but like like like and like he was like and it worked for him. He was like super direct, super kind of aggressive with candidates and candidates like that, you know, for whatever reason. And so like I was trying to find my voice in the organization, right? So I became and it just felt weird. I was struggling. He pulled me aside, you know, kind of a few months in my career.

And he was like, hey, I hear you on the phones. You're just kind of a mess. And I'm like, yeah, like I'm trying to be I'm trying to be like you. And he was like, just be you. Like you don't have to be like me. Just be you. And so then I just started to be me and kind of my self-deprecating self. And, you know, obviously, you know, I don't ride motorcycles and and you know, I don't drink bourbon and whiskey, but you know, I kind of just started to become me and that's when it started to click. And so that's I think backing up what you said, I think, you know, we we we all Jason that tracks, you know, you we always look to people on social like, Oh, I wish I could be them.

I wish I could be them. I think the only person that can generally be you is you. Right. Like like they're like like like and so really lean into that. And lean into your quirks. And I think especially in the sea of AI and, you know, all the all of whatever the internet is right now, I think I think being just you, I think is the huge unlock. Absolutely. And I think I would add to that being the better you. Right. So if I were just me, I would not be on this podcast. I would not be on my life. I would be at home when my, you know, researching or what.

Yes. Well, I think there is the what do you want? And if you do want to influence people, if you do want to have greater impact, if you do want to get promoted, if you do want a new job, you do need to take some action that's going to be uncomfortable. But I think, you know, just being you is fantastic advice. And I would say there are two things to that. One is observe others, other introverts, other introverted leaders. What are they doing to command a room? What are they doing that makes you feel confident in their leadership and the flip side, observe extroverts, not to become an extrovert.

But I observed Al Kelly was the president at American Express when I worked there. And he did an amazing job of memorizing people's names and little details like you're a guy with a pony. Right. And he would say to people in the hall like, oh, you know, how's your mother doing? Or, you know, how's that? You know, Corky, you have at home. And I asked him at some point, how does he do that? He was definitely extroverted. And he said he writes it all down. I was like, oh, I could do that if I wanted to connect with people. I don't have to be him.

But I learned the tip of a behavior change that could work for me. So I think it's observed those around you and say, oh, I like that aspect of it. I don't want to become the motorcycle driving, you know, drinker that my boss is. But I can take that. Oh, he has a lot of energy. How can I express my energy in a natural way as opposed to trying to be someone else? Because as you know, it's exhausting to try to be someone else. Yes. Yes. And as an introvert, we need to manage our energy. So that's an important aspect. Be you. It's much lower energy level.

Yes, absolutely. We're all about conserving energy. We're all about having to get like I blocked out an hour after this. So I can like decompress after this interview. It's just a way. So I want to go to the book real quick, right? Obviously the book's coming out next week, right? Yeah, I've over a second. So sell it to me. Why do you why should people buy it? Why why why why why should people look into it? Yeah. So I think it's all about if you are an introvert who wants to have greater impact, this is the book for you. There's an amazing book by Susan King called Quiet, which she really sets the tone for yes, our world is focused on the extroverted ideal and introverts are different.

Where her book leaves off is OK, so practically what do you go do? If you know you're an introvert in an extroverted world and my book is very much about being very practical. So it's about understanding that you are completely normal as an introvert. 50% of the world is introverted, but only 2% of the most senior leaders are introverted. So if you want to be move up in the organization, you don't have to be the CEO, but if you want to move up in the organization, there are some behaviors that you can practice that allow you to have more impact. So whether it's speaking up or having an executive presence or networking, as we've talked about, and very, very importantly is managing your energy so that you can do at work.

So it's about you having greater impact, but staying you, changing behaviors, not who you are. Yeah, absolutely. Is there I don't want to spoil the book too much because I want people to get it. But is there any other tactics that we just haven't talked about yet that you would really want to drive home? Yeah. Oh, well, there's lots. I mean, obviously there's a full book of it. I understand. I didn't know I didn't know if there's any other like secret sauce we haven't talked about yet. Well, I think that the end of the day, the biggest message is do one thing out of your comfort zone.

One thing, not a million things, not a huge leap. But it's one thing if like networking today, reach out to that former boss you've had. Again, someone you know, someone you're comfortable with, someone who can give you some advice or give you some perspective, who knows you well, that is one kind step out of your comfort zone. Because it's probably not in your normal repertoire. And then with each additional conversation, you can take further and further and further steps, but you're not going to build confidence without taking the action and you're not going to have that impact unless you're reaching out to people, you're influencing, you're growing that visibility.

But don't take this all like, oh my God, Jennifer said, I have to do a million things. No, do one thing, one thing and do that today. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. One thing, one thing I just popped into my brain, my ADHD brain as we're talking. So you mentioned a few minutes ago about not networking, but like talking with other people in the organization. I feel like there's something that no one really talks about and how that's that can be a superpower, like not necessarily trying to be sleazy and like, you know, trying to, you know, posture yourself. But I think just getting to know other people in the organization, do you feel like that's a good topic to kind of gain more visibility?

What are your thoughts on that? Absolutely. So I think it works two ways. So one is people think, oh, I need to go meet with the VP because I need visibility. There's also the flip side of it is you're assessing, do you want to be in that VP's organization? And I think again, most people say, oh, I need to know the CEO. I need to know the VP or the senior VP. The reality is networking is much more achievable and probably more valuable at lower levels. One, they're going to make it more time for you. They're closer to your stage in your career that you're going to have much better insight.

Is that the type of group I want to move to? Is that type of role I want to move into from, I don't know, from a software engineer to perhaps a project management role or a product management role? And so having that network is as much about gaining visibility is as well, learning what you want to do or don't want to do. It's also helpful down the road if you network with people and say, oh, I have this problem. I think Jay over in that department had something similar. Even though I met with him about career stuff, there's a project he's working on that may be very relevant.

So it gives you that ability to have other resources beyond just yourself. So yes, yes, network. And when I say network, I hate that word, but reach out to people, get to know people and it can be super easy. Go have a coffee, go have lunch. You know, everyone has to hopefully everyone has to eat. Maybe not a kind of night, but everyone has to do not recommend. But it allows you in a casual way, not a formal like I must have an agenda for this meeting to meet people. And that is huge. You know, introverts, I think, would always love to just be alone.

But the reality is we do need to push ourselves to connect with people because it's super healthy for us, not in huge amounts, but super healthy to connect with other humans. Yeah, Kelly comes in here being a part of the employee resource group we have at our organization has been a huge to my introvertness. Yes, absolutely. That was a story I told you. It was the women's employee network group that really I think was pushed me over the edge to make it to GM because another leader saw my leadership, my my my direct team in addition to making great contacts across the board to other groups.

I love that. I love that. There, I don't know if I ask you this question, but I don't know if if I was researching and kind of what you said, but talking about like adding your wins, like whether it's a weekly win or monthly winner, yearly win. I feel like people don't do that. Yes. I feel like that's massive. Yeah. And then I think there are two things. One is you get to your review. If your review system is anything like what I've experienced, you have to do a self appraisal, like what did I do? It's December. What did I do in January? Yeah, you're like, what did I do?

So I like to create what I call a dig, which is damn on good list. I love it. Dig list. I want to start using that. Yes. And so I don't necessarily do it daily, but on a weekly basis, I kind of cold through, is there anything I want to put on my dig list? And it could be, you know, like a big project I completed. But usually it's something softer. Like I resolve this conflict with my colleague or I identified a new idea. And so there's the dig list. The dig list is for me. The second part is, as I mentioned before, if you're doing all these amazing things and no one knows it, it's kind of like if a tree falls in the forest, you know, is there a sound, right?

It doesn't have any impact if people don't know. Now, I know like the customer may have a better experience or the partner may have a better experience because of what you did, but it's not going to impact you in your career unless other people know. And so what are the things that you want to share with your boss is slightly different than the dig list, although it can be sourced from the dig list that you want to make sure your boss is aware of. And those tend to be more outcome driven, what your goals are, you know, saved, you know, $50,000 on this project or got through this, you know, a very challenging design problem.

But putting that, even if it's not shouting or saying to your boss that you've done it, putting it somewhere in an email or in your update so that it is there, which will also make it easier at the end of the year. You're like, Oh, here's a summary of all the things I've done, right? When you write yourself appraisal. Yeah. So I always look to, you know, I'm fully a I peeled people make fun of me. I find out my wife on an AI assistant now, but like, you know, one of the things I would do, so I'm going to call it out. I think everybody should go into Claude or chat, GPT or Gemini, whatever you use and create a skill and call it the dig list.

And what and I think the parameters should be hook into my email, hook into Slack. And every every month run this and tell me what I accomplished, right? Because for me, I think, you know, before AI, yeah, I mean, I think it was writing things down, but now we have all these AI systems. We have Claude, we have all this stuff where. And so, I mean, that's essentially what I do. I'm going to, you know what, Jennifer, I'm going to rename my skill in Claude today to call it my dig list. And I use it for my all hands, right? So we present at Torc in front of the entire Torc organization once a month.

And I'm going to call it the dig list and basically. So what I do is is my skill on Claude is, hey, can you tell me all my team's accomplishments over the last month, create a, create a document? And then what I do is then I kind of like, you know, customize that to a PowerPoint slide. But again, I think I think if you do not have some sort of skill where you can kind of scan your email, scan your Slack, scan other things, I think you're really losing a missing a lot on the table. Yeah, absolutely. And especially I love the use of AI because it's not you saying, oh damn, I'm good.

It's like Claude is saying, wow, you're really good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, literally, I would even tell, I mean, like the way I talk to AI, like, I mean, literally I go, hey, like I can't think today. Can you help me here, right? So I would say, hey, I hate talking about myself. Can you help craft a narrative for me of everything I've accomplished in the last month? Yeah. And it'll help. It'll help. It's great. All right. So as we wrap up here, any last pressing thoughts that we did not cover. Oh, so many. But I think I think if there's one thing to take away from this conversation is just do one thing out of your comfort zone.

Yeah. Right. Because that is what builds confidence. That is what will get you moving, having greater impact than you than you already have. You do not need to change you. There is nothing wrong with you. It is a matter of just taking these behavioral steps to have the impact you want. Yeah, I love it. I love it. All right. So I do kind of these these these questions here at the end. So I kind of a little bit rapid fire. But let me ask you this. When you were young, what did you want to be when you grew up, growed up? I don't know what to say.

Like what did you want to be when you were at all? At some point, I wanted to be a park ranger at Grand Teton National Park and follow Grizzlies. I was a bio major in college. I love the science. It would have been very very much solitude type of role. And then that older, I actually interviewed at the Museum of Natural History in New York City. No way. Job. And I got the job despite those funny stories, despite throwing up in the middle of the interview. And I ended up saying, I don't think I want to work. And there are a whole bunch of labs behind the scene.

I didn't realize this. There are a whole bunch of labs behind the scene. And I think it was a combination of having thrown up there. And I had a bad literally taste in my mouth. But I didn't want to work in a lab. And so that's amazing. I have not done that before. You know what? I'm going to re-title this episode to getting the job because you vomited in the interview. I think that will cause some clicks on this. I love that. What was the very first job you ever had? What was the very first job Jennifer ever got paid to do? Oh, well, I did when I was younger, like maybe six or seven.

I had a fake store from my grandparents and I'd make mud pies and I'd make twigs. They lived in Idaho and they paid me like 10 cents for my mud pies. So I guess that's my first job. I love it. I love this. I love it. Fascinating background, fascinating background. That's another title of the podcast, making mud pies for 10, 10 cents. This is kind of an interesting question. What's a career mistake you're oddly grateful for? Despite how painful it was, not getting that promotion to GM was an incredible lesson. And it feels like such a gift. I would have continued on with my thought of just confidence always wins.

And the reality is it doesn't need more than just competence or expertise. So that was a while painful at the time. An incredible lesson. Yeah, I love that. I love that. If if if you could. So if I told you tomorrow, Jennifer, sorry, you can't do what you're doing anymore. No, but but I would pay you the same amount or more. What is just what is a profession you would pursue? Would you go back to being a park ranger? Oh, well, I never was a park ranger, but maybe now that would be nice. Yeah. I think I would actually go out and do my PhD in social science and focus on introverts.

So slightly different, but I would do. But that would be painful if you told me I couldn't do what I'm doing now. Because I love what I do. I love it. I love it. All right, last question as we wrap up the stream. And again, Jennifer, thank you for joining me. I hope people got a lot out of it. You know, again, I think I think this is very applicable to the engineering community. Before I ask you last question, Jennifer, how can people find you? How can people reach out to you? Yep. So my website, Jennifer Markoo, so it's M-A-R-C-O-U dot com. And because I'm an introvert, I'm pretty much only on one social media site, which is LinkedIn.

So you can find me, Jennifer Markoo on LinkedIn. There's only one Jennifer Markoo. And I do write a lot about kind of the introvert experience and tips and tricks around that. So please follow me there. I love it. All right. Last question. The show is called Guidance Councilor 2.0 because you had Guidance Councilor in middle school, high school, in college. But now as adults, we don't necessarily have a Guidance Councilor returned to what would be if you could go back in time and tell young Jennifer something, what would it be? Be confident in yourself. You are enough. I love it. That's awesome. I love it.

Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finish an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the app store. I want this to be discoverable to others. And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me at Tdaston on all social media handles.

And I hope you have a fantastic day.