lessons learned in leadership during a pandemic

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

What's going on podcast listeners? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in to Guidance Counselor 2.0. The point of this podcast is to allow individuals a resource in their careers when they need it the most. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school. But yet now, in the real world, we don't have anything or any resource to listen to, to turn to, to learn from others. And so that is what this podcast is for. I interview real people who have had real challenges in their career in hopes that you can take a little bit out of it and to apply within your own career.

As always, please rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast. I really want this podcast to become discoverable to others. And so they can use this as a tool. And the only way that happens is if you rate and review it so it climbs the charts. If you need to reach me, all social media handles for me at TdSNT, D-E-S-S-E-Y-N. I do a ton on Twitter and LinkedIn. And if you need to reach me the old-fashioned email way, shoot me an email, TaylorD at vaco.com. Again, I know there's a lot of podcasts out there and I really appreciate you taking time to listen to Guidance Counselor 2.0.

I hope you enjoy the episode. Welcome to our LinkedIn Live event, Lessons Learned from 2020. Excited to be I'm Kyle Allen, the managing partner here in our Nashville office for Vaco. I've got a special, special guest. With me today, Taylor Dessen works with me in Nashville. Technology, can you tell your technology and I'm accounting and finance? I'm actually in accounting and finance. You are. No way. But we're going to have a little discussion today on lessons learned in 2020. We're going to start out with just a little vulnerability and kind of what we've learned through that, that, leading teams, I'm excited to do that. So, thank you for yourself.

Thanks for having me, Kyle. So, for those of you who do not know me, my name is Taylor Destin. I've been with Veko. We were just talking about this off air nine years this month, first job out of college. So, I moved up here from the University of South Carolina or from South Carolina, went to the University of South Carolina, go Game Cocks, wherever in a rough year. That's beside the point. Moved up here to do music like everyone else in Nashville and, you know, did the honky-tongs, played at Tequila Cowboy. I don't think it's all that anymore. I did some stuff on Music Row, did some touring, and then broke down inside of a road in the middle of South Carolina in the middle of the summer.

If there's one place you do not want to break down in the middle of South Carolina. So after that, if you know what, I'm done. I'm done with music. So I leveraged my network at the time, which is pretty indicative of what I do now. I found Vaco through friend of a friend and been recruiting nationally and then went to Raleigh, spent some time in Raleigh on the tech side of things was out there for 11 months and 29 days and then my mentor Scott Gordon called me back and he said hey you want to come back and really kind of helped brought the team and so since then we've scaled Vaco technology from seven people to I think we're up to 24 or 28.

Crazy the biggest team we have at Vaco in Nashville it's incredible a lot so 2020 has been interesting to say the least Taylor. I mean for me it's been the most challenging year professionally I've had a ton of lessons I've learned but vulnerability has been probably the best tool and it's also really really hard for people to show and give and I'm still not only I'm not a hundred percent vulnerable all the time at different times but talk about like and I can go into this as well like what is it done for you this year what what what's stretched you have you done with your teams communicating what's that what's that done for you yeah I mean I think a lot of people in today's world especially in the tech scene right everyone wants to have culture have a ping-pong table and you know, beer on tap and while I think those are great, I think what you're seeing right now is this push to really to have transparency, to have a place where you can have culture to be yourself, to bring your entire self, which is I know what something that we strive for here at Baco.

And so, you know, with our team, I would say this year, I have been through the trenches with people on my team in different parts of their lives that I've never experienced before. I think that's what the biggest thing this has brought in COVID is, our CEO Jerry always says, you bring your whole self to work, right? And we do say that, but I think it's never been more true than March to now through COVID because when dealing with people at work, we have professional issues we're dealing with and things come up. And now it's like, man, emotionally people are coming drained, right? And it's coming because of personnel reasons or kids at home.

There's just a ray, I'm not gonna go into kind of all this hit for COVID. But I think coming to work and being sensitive and empathetic and vulnerable and all that stuff is for me is bode well because I think just asking the question of like how you doing and slowing down and just kind of trying to see the person has helped me because we get going so fast in work where people just wanna be seen, they wanna be heard and know that you care. And I think that's what I've learned through this is like, it's not about being right and trying to lead. But I think being a vulnerable, just like actually having an empathetic self to what's going on as we're trying to drive for results and climb out of the ditch that we're in, right?

Yeah. And because we're all struggling, so when you're struggling at work and you're struggling at home, like where you went in, who's listening? And so that's where I try to like be just asking questions, are you okay? How's it going? What can I do? And usually it's not much. Right. It's just like a placed event and listening, you know? Yeah, it's funny you say a place to vent and listen. So when COVID started back in March, I can't believe it's been what, seven months? It's crazy. It's nuts. So we went through a lot of iterations as we did as an office, right? So I think if we're being vulnerable on this video live thing we're doing, is we probably over-engineered the video call.

Oh, I know I did that. I mean, listen, for me, so I started out, this is probably the biggest lesson I'm learning. start out I'm trying to have two with the whole office I think you know two calls a day and then you got the team leads having a call that you're having a call the team. How many people in the office? Since you're two people of school? Well there's fifty five sixty twice a day and then trying to how do you lead a team call I don't know and then I really quickly realized from a little bit of pushback like this isn't working right people aren't engaged how do we you know and so we pivoted how many times we call to take that off your calendar put this on, do this.

And so I think knowing as a leader listening and asking for feedback and like this isn't going well I'm not feeling the vibe and and sometimes you try to force things to work. Like I was I was just trying to okay I got to touch everybody every day and it's like it's impossible. You know and so not having cameras on or cameras off you make people do that and there's there's two trains of thought on that. So I think having them on definitely probably brings more engagement but there's times where it's like not needed just need to listen. So that was my first for sure.

COVID lesson is just using zoom or teams and how to maneuver through that. Yeah and and same thing with the technology team right so so my team you know I managed team of nine recruiters and you know we got to a point where so not only was it office calls and it was teams it was not only our entire vehicle technology team of 25 people, but then it was the nine person recruiting team. And so it got to the point where I mean my recruiters like listen, this is ridiculous, I'm tired of this. And I said I hear you, I hear you. And so we finally got into a cadence and really of the last 30 to 45 days where the recruiting team does one group call a month.

And then on the off weeks, it's 15 minute 101s. And what I got to, and I think you said it best, people want to be seen, people want to be heard. I think I tried to over engineer it and be like we need to talk strategy We need to talk exes knows all the time, but it's like man, you know what like people don't need that right now Like and people want to talk about hey listen, you know what like I'm scared Or you know what like I'm struggling with hitting my productivity Am I gonna get fired right and it's it's one of these things and so honestly so the 15 minute one-on-one calls I do I just say hey, what's up?

Yeah, and we don't talk a lick about business But again, it's taken what five months yeah of over engineering the video call to get to the sense of, hey, let's just get personal. Yeah. Well, I think to the vulnerability piece, if you're vulnerable with other people and asking those questions, you don't necessarily get that reciprocated right away, right? A lot of times that takes time. Some people aren't comfortable still in COVID. When I ask are they already okay? Do they give me a straight answer? Probably not. 50% of the people maybe do now. When I took over this job four years ago, maybe it was 5%.

So I think, and then do they trust you, to not do anything with it. But sometimes that's the hardest thing to do a leader too is like you get some information about things going on in the office and like maybe the best thing is just to know and just sit on it and be aware then try to go fix things because I think leaders try to make sure nothing goes wrong and sometimes you need some things to shake out for people both people on your teams to grow and have them work that out on their own. They don't need a dad to come in and fix it.

So I think that's the biggest thing is just through vulnerabilities letting them be comfortable to be it back. And I think just constantly trying to give them that direction. So you and I have thrown around the word vulnerability, this entire session is on vulnerability. So I want us to define what that is. And again, my wife and I joke around that COVID, during this time, it's wrong answers only. No one has the right answer. But I think vulnerability means different things to different people. So I ask you first, what are your thoughts with vulnerability? What does it mean to you? What does that word mean?

And then obviously I'll answer that. Yeah. And I want to say this one quick thing too. If you guys have questions out there, send those in. Yes. So we have a Q&A session. So don't want to answer what you guys have and other lessons, or maybe there's something your boss is doing. And we can give you some ways to approach that too. So don't want to forget that. But what does vulnerability mean to me? I think it's just being honest or being really true to who you are and what you're feeling in that moment, or in the whole scale of the situation. But I also think there's a vulnerability of workplace vulnerability in a work vulnerability at home.

I'm probably on a scale of one to 10. I'm probably a five at home, and I'm probably a seven at work. I'm a little more comfortable in the work setting, and then working on that and communication. And I think it's just being vulnerable, it comes down to why you're not, there's a fear out there, right? And what's your fear? And so naming your fear and what you're scared of, sometimes it's like, just like, man, just be real, you know, and what it is. And I think too is a leader. I think there's leaders out there that have to be, there's a persona they have to have that they have to be right 100% of the time.

Or if they screw up, then there's no, they're looked less upon. And for me, I've just learned that I've learned more as a leader by messing up, by having bad conversations, by saying the wrong thing, by giving the wrong direction onto somebody, and being like, golly, that was either. I didn't have all the information at the time to make the situation, or just it was a bad call. and then owning that instead of, and then also too, if it's a bad call, like, you know, if it's a bad hire, if it's a bad to sit, like, addressing it. Don't let it sit in there. So I think that's what I've, you know, it's a long-winded answer.

No, I love that ability. Listen, we're both long-winded, which is why I prefer everyone else to ask questions, because we could stay up here for the next three hours, but none of y'all want to hear that. So for me, I think vulnerability is, so I've struggled with being a leader and being vulnerable because I am by nature a lovey touchy, feely dude, right? Like sitting this far away from you. I know it's tough. It's tough, right? Well you two, we both, both of us care what people think too. 100%. So then you have that whole balance of being a leader and caring what people think.

And then you have to make decisions not based on that too. So you're like, man, that's been a probably the biggest growth area for me is not caring. Not, I'd say that loosely, but not basing every decision I make on what somebody's gonna care about me. And then side bar real quick, because one thing Kyle did is get the entire office to take the Enneagram test. So you're a 2-3. And I'm a 3-2. And so my wife's a 2-3. And a lot of my team members are 2's on Enneagram. And for those of you who don't know what an Enneagram is, look it up. It's fantastic.

What a 2 is, it's a helper. You are wired to help others before you even look for yourself. I think if you look out into the spectrum of any of your There's a lot of female twos. Yeah, absolutely. I'm a little bit unicorn. Yeah, you are unicorn. And so that's tough as a leader because I have bits as a twos in my personality. And it's like I want to be completely open, completely transparent, completely vulnerable. And I've struggled for so long because I have been told in the past I'm too emotional. I care too much. You know, you're overreacting, right? Like I've had those things told to me for a lot of my entire life, especially from a professional setting.

And so, like, it's honestly man, in the last like year or two, I've really dug in, like, you know what, this is who I am, I'm unapologetically, I cry at commercials, right? Like Hallmark during Christmas is brutal, right? Like, just, but the thing is, is I've embraced it, But I think there's a way as a leader and what I've tried to do is be vulnerable, but also direct, right? Hey, listen, I'm struggling with this too. I know you're struggling with this, but we need to put some things in place to get better, because if we're just gonna sit here and be vulnerable and be emotional the entire time?

You gotta start driving the car, right, at some point. So we do have a question that came in. How do you recommend communicating with your boss when struggling with something at work? It's a great question. I mean I think for you, it depends on what it is. If it's with the individual, if it's with something you're having trouble with struggling with, I think just what you just said, being direct about the situation. And approaching it in a way of like, hey, help me right now because I'm having trouble doing, would you give me some advice? Or what do you recommend with this? Or hey, when you said this, it made me think this way or feel that way.

And was that your intention? And anytime you're approaching somebody, your boss or a friend or a spouse or whoever it is, I think in approaching it as trying to understand where they're coming from, to understand the situation, to learn more about what you're feeling is super helpful, because a lot of times understanding where the other person's coming from, you're like, okay, I know why you said that. Oh, I know why you did that. You're right, actually, I didn't think about that. You know, and so going into that, when you're struggling with something you're not, you may not, you may be missing something, you're not seeing the whole picture.

Well, and I think you said the best. And I was going through kind of a leadership training here at Vaco before COVID hit, literally the best for COVID hit. And one of my dear friends, Taylor Robertson, Raleigh, shout out to Raleigh family. I love that crew, but they love you. Yeah. I wish they loved me as much as they loved you. So Taylor said the best. He was like, he was like, hey, we're talking about conflict resolution in this leadership training. He goes, all right, tell me, tell me you're kind of the way you see it, tell me how the other person would see it.

Yeah. Right? And to me, like that kind of clicked into place because for me, I think the way I would wanna be communicated to, and I would recommend people to communicate to the boss. And I do this to you a lot. You and I have our one on one this afternoon. So I can't wait. I'm sure. I'm sure. We're going live. We're going live. We're going live on that. Uncensored. Yeah. So, but, and now I say this so you'll notice it. I really try to give both angles when I approach you. And I don't know if you've noticed that in the past You haven't gotten better at it, but I really try to go, hey listen, this is how I feel.

But at the end of the day, they're doing the best they can or I know they're stretched thin or this individual isn't performing, but I know they're going through personal things like I really try my best and I don't always do well, but I really try my best to bring the full story from both angles to, so because if I talk to you and I come at you for 30 minutes about me, me, me, me, like you're gonna zone out and you're gonna be on the defense. But if I go, hey, listen, I'm struggling with this because this person isn't performing, but I know this person is dealing with this and this, you're going to go, okay, he actually gets in.

So it's more of an organic conversation. Totally. And I think too, when approaching your boss, one of the things I think is really key, it's not approaching him or her in an emotional state. Right? That's hard. Yeah. That's really super. And so, no, I'm not saying don't bring that into the emotion. I mean, if that happens, like I've had people in front of me that have cried and it's true feelings there. I don't look any guy down on that. I'm just saying when you're emotionally charged, something just happened and you go talk to somebody, like take a day, think about it, write down a few points of what you're gonna say, what you wanna come out.

And then from that, where do you want this to go? That's a question I get with some people, is like, okay, what do you want me to do? Right, and so. And so, and 50% of the time, people are like, nothing. I just wanted to tell you. or I just need your advice or whatever, right? And sometimes there is an actionable item or I give them some advice on what to do, right? So that's important that I've learned from me and I love this is where you get an email and you're fired up, right? And I'll bang it out, I sit there and just I hit delete.

I mean, send it. And I don't know what that does to you but it just kinda brings it out so anyway. That's something separate. So second question we have, have you experienced a time where you had to, experienced a time where you had to be vulnerable own your own mistakes. Every day in my marriage. Yeah. Personally for sure. I don't mess up that much though. Once a year maybe. You're honestly almost perfect. I'm so close. Like I got that award. You know perfect attendance. I never got that. I didn't either. We were talking about that with my daughter last night. She's like I don't care about that award.

She wants to take out her school early tomorrow. Gotcha. Experience with vulnerable my own mistakes. I mean, I'm trying to think, yeah, I mean, anything work-wise, there's times where I probably said things I shouldn't to people and trying to think of the exact, if you have a better example. Yeah, I mean, so there's one time, individual on my team, so to a little peel behind the onion, if you will, on how recruiters kind of do things. So not only is my recruiting team, I'm gonna look dead set into the camera of the Baker Nation, Baker Nashville technology has the best recruiting team in the country.

Not only do we have the best team in the country, every single recruiter is rock solid. And so during this time, there's been less job orders, there's been more candidates, we've stepped on people's toes. I personally have done it. I have not checked our internal system. And I stepped on one of my recruiters toes for a candidate. And in the moment, I believe I called her out publicly publicly on a video on one of our teams thing and after going back on it, it was my fault. The whole entire thing was my fault, right? And so I called her and I apologized. And the thing is, I put her on blast and I was wrong.

And I tell you what, it sucks to do. But I think if we're talking about going back to vulnerability, I think that is what you start doing moments like that time and time again you're gonna chip away on a culture that you want in regards to vulnerability and transparency because what has happened is is It is taking me so I've really truly been leading the team for about three four years now It is taking me three four years to get where we're at be totally transparent I know a lot of personal things about my team and I love that But we have a long way to go but it takes what I call velcro moments to have those transparency and have those mobility moments.

To build that culture. I think the biggest thing for me is, I don't know a time for me, but I think it took me about six months into the job I'm in to realize my voice mattered. And it carried weight by what I said. There's a lot of times early on my first year that I would just make sidebar conversations with people. And it come to bite me in the butt three months later because I'm like, well Kyle said, I'm like, oh wow, I was just like spitball on that. And so I really had to watch, I think, for me, and I would apologize in a situation, because it would come down to who should run after an account or something like that, just an idea, right?

And so I think for me, it was like, okay, wow, what I say carries weight, whether I think it does or not, in the position I'm in. And so I think that was the first time where I was like, man, I really need to just be careful of my words and how I use them, not to the point I'm not going to say my thoughts and opinions on a matter, but just who I'm talking to and what we should do because it pretends to be for that person becomes a definite. So just me just like, I just an idea. Yeah. And I think leaders, if you're a leader and a leader can be anything, right?

It can be a small team. Anybody is a leader in the workplace, whether they manage or not. You are a leader. And I think if you are a people leader within an organization, I think, like you said, your word carries weight, I also think to develop transparency and vulnerability and culture within your organization. I think you need to take time for those people because I think a lot of times we don't think and I don't mean this in a negative way or negative self talk or anything but we don't think we're that important. Like us as leaders, like you just said, you didn't realize your voice carried that much weight.

And so taking time and tending to your team and your people because they need you and want you is something that I have had to learn, right? this COVID time where everybody's remote, some people aren't thriving at home, you're kind of like the way I feel like the way I feel when I hang out with you is the way my team feels when they hang out with me. And I've had to realize that and spend that time with them and shepherding them from that perspective. So I think a lot of time as the leaders in business, we're like, we look up to leaders in our business, but we don't also tend to, I'm getting a little jesus to hear, but tend to our flock per se, right?

always look ahead and look what other leaders are doing and what other people that are more higher up in our in our organizations doing but we're not looking to our team and that's something I've had to redirect as well. I think it's important to with just this team aspect is like being a leader. I think it's being a leader is all of a sudden you're on a throne and you're up top and you're just looking down and everybody's doing stuff for you and it's actually the opposite right? As far as just trying to be what can I do for you to help you do your job better and then when stuff's, how can I insert myself in a quick manner to make you really positive and really more strengthen you and what you're doing every day?

And so that's the approach I try to take instead of like, okay, you guys do everything I'm doing nothing. It's the opposite of how can work together and that puts a lot of balls in the air and I'm not perfect at it by any means. But I think that approach is a leader where I work with you, not for you or you don't work for me. we work together, it's just a title and we have different roles. We all are worthy and all of our jobs matter. Because you take you out of the equation, you take one or two of your recruiters out of the equation, it's not the same team, right?

Take me out, then maybe it's better, I don't know. But I think that's important to understand, like no matter what your role is, you matter. Absolutely. And so hopefully you have a leadership team that you work for that feels that way, gets that, and listens to what you have to say. Honestly, I want people to come to me and tell me what they honestly feel. And sometimes just sitting in the ab- hearing it sometimes is really hard. And I've learned that too, right? And so I think the more you just consider it and you hear it, you're like, God, that is really hard to hear.

But being vulnerable must be a thank you for telling me that. And what do you do with it next? And how do you fix what you're hearing? Yeah. Yeah. Next question, scale of one to ten, how comfortable are you with truly being vulnerable in a workplace and being seen for who you are? We have to give numbers. Numbers, Taylor's. You want to go, I'll go first. I would say for me, one to ten, ten being like, you know everything about me and all that's going on. I'd give a solid seven probably. I think there's always for me, you know. But do you want a ten in the world?

No, I'm not sure. I think there's times where I can't be vulnerable. There's times that I can't talk about things, right? I mean, it's just like, I can't. When you look at my email, my account, or everything that's going on, the whole office will be like, what? What's going on? No, no, no, no, this isn't done. This is a finished product, right? So I mean, I think there's things that I shield for sure from a communication standpoint, but it's one. I don't have a truly understanding of it. Sure, you're still trying to figure it out. Two, I may not agree with it. I'm trying to push back a bit, or we're still trying to form what it looks like.

So, but I think to what I can tell, or can train, or you know, and then also too, like me. Yeah, I think it's seven, but I think there's always ways to get better. I think being vulnerable and hearing other people's vulnerability, and sometimes it's telling the truth about who they think I am or how I've been to them is like, God man, my bad. Like I need to spend more time with you or I need to hear you better, or what I said, those words I used, dug too deep, right? Or that wasn't the intent and you took it as that, or that's how you felt.

So that's probably what I would say. I mean, I would probably say like 7.5.8. Ooh, better than me. Well, if it's you. One, that's a three thing. I'm trying to do it three years. So I'm going to be a little better. I will say anyagram, if they haven't done that anyagram, you definitely do it. You definitely do it. Yeah, I made my parents take the integram fine. It's great. And I learned a lot. But so, yeah, I mean, here's the deal. It's something that I've just really tried to dig in on. I mean, like, you know, I think there's, you know, as a leader, like there's a lot of leaders I follow, right?

I mean, I'm just gonna throw out one Gary Vannerchuk, like he doesn't talk more to me. He doesn't talk about his family, right? I respect that, it doesn't talk about his kids, but he still, he does vulnerability in the workplace. For me, like my wife, now my newborn nine month old daughter, like, they're a part of the VACO technology team, right? Like when we have team outings, like me and my wife, Jackie gets brought up all the time. And that's just a decision that we made, right? And I'm not saying that's for everybody, But what I'm saying is, if I want to have the same vulnerability given to me, I need to give it.

The way I want to give it is to involve my family. Jackie's been a big part of my business and my branding and my photography. I'm a client. Yeah, absolutely. She takes selfies of me all the time. She's done wonders for my Instagram. So all that being said, I definitely have tried to push. I think I continue to be more vulnerable. But I think the way I can get better is to listen to receive and not necessarily problem solved. So I think a lot of time as leaders, and you already mentioned this, people unload, people talk and you sit there and you're like, I need to solve it.

Well, you solve it. I need to solve it. But really the person doesn't need it to be solved. And also too, they're halfway through telling you what's going on. And I've been around the block a few times. Like I already know where this is going to end up. And I already know how to fix this for them. And I've tuned out the last five minutes. And so you stop listening. And then you're like, you miss the whole other piece of just like being there. And at the end of the day, they may not want you to fix anything. Right? And so, no, totally been there and fault that too.

Next question, how do you guys think about providing constructive feedback during this crazy time? Said definitely, are you more permissive in their expectations of their team in terms of measured and formal feedback discussions? This is a great question. This is a great question. You first, because you and I've had conversations about this with my friends. We have, we have, you know, we've tailored, so for us, we've tailored, no pun intended. We've kind of changed kind of the measurements of expectations and really honed in on a few things, right? I don't want to get too recruiting on this, right? You know, like, right, yeah, right, so, but I think, yeah, I mean, I think I've had some feedback with it.

But if I look and you're doing, I see no production and some low productivity and what's going on. But also too, I think it goes back to kind of knowing what the individual is dealing with that week or you know, the things are going on. So yes and no. Yeah, I mean, I think so. You have a really bad answer there. It doesn't really give a lot of meat there. It's just, it's so tough to, and if you're not here to see it every day and feel it and touch it, And then you're looking at a system, is it really dictates? Is that really giving me the data I want?

I think you're discounting yourself, because I think you've done an incredible job with the conversations we have. And then Alex Nadell, who runs our entire technology practice, I think us three have developed a good amount of synergy over this time, and really having conversations with what's important. So the person who asked this, we have not excused poor behavior or excused poor metrics. but we have constantly redefined and constantly ask the question of what's important now. And I think you've done a good job of that. You're downplaying it because I think like you and I, I'm not for the people, for the two people now who are listening still, you and I sat down in February right before COVID hit and we were like, hey, these are the four things and you did a great job.

You're like, why do these things need to be the four things? And actually you came at, we had a conversation, you're like, actually Taylor, we need to focus on these. And I said, Kyle, you're wrong, which you were receptive and open. So I'm affirming you right now, the three and two and you love the affirmation. But I love it more and more. So, so, so we, we define four pillars. COVID hit. We redefined the four and really made them three. And then even as in the last few months, you and I have had conversations where it's like, well, do we really focus on this? Or do we focus on this?

So I think, I think as leaders with an organization, especially within a sales driven organization during this time, you don't need to excuse bad metrics. but you need to have a more holistic and intentional conversation around what's important and why, instead of just saying it because I told you so. No, yeah. And I think the feedback, you said it best though, is I think, instead of giving more constructive criticism, it's been asking questions, right, of what we can do better. How are you doing? How are you handling it? So, man, do this was awesome. Fun times. There's so many lessons to be learned. I hope you guys enjoyed that.

2020 lessons learned. I'll be back next month with another special guest. Stay tuned for who that will be and what the topic will be on. So again thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you next month. Thanks y'all.