rich rader principal engineer + becoming an effective leader

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All right, going live. We are live. Let me go ahead and share it, tag you on the internet. Going on everybody, for those of you who are watching, Happy Tuesday. I already had, I already composed an email to somebody today. I said, Happy Wednesday, but today is Tuesday. So that's where I'm at. That's nice. Cool, so we got some people trickling in. All right, give a little sunshine on my face. So you can see me. Fake light, cool. We got some viewers already. This is pretty cool stuff. Rich, I think you're a popular person, my man. All right, so welcome everybody. The Guidance Councilor 2.0 Lab Edition.

This one is not my morning slot because I needed to get sleep this morning. So I am joined by my dear friend, Rich Rader. and so Rich and I go way back, not really. I think you and I really don't wanna go back like a year or so. But basically I've worked with Rich to get him to where he's currently at with his current position. But Rich, I've really admired from a leadership perspective from afar with what Rich has been able to do. The rapport that he's built with his teams, speaking with him, how others speak of Rich. And so today what we're gonna dive into for the next six hours, we are going to talk about rich thoughts on leadership.

He and I are just gonna hang out and just talk about leadership in general. And so Rich, thank you again for joining me. And I appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. It's good to be here. Yes, absolutely. It's great to be here, aka virtually, from our bedrooms or living rooms or wherever you're at. So, well, for the people who are watching, give a quick background about yourself, man. What do you do and where you came from? Yeah, so I grew up in a real small town in East Tennessee. Broke my first website in 1994, roughly. So, kind of been a nerd programmer. kind of been set on that path for a long time now, because writing websites was about the only thing you could do when everyone and all your friends lived a 30-minute drive away from you.

So, convenient. But, you know, so been picking up different languages and skills. Went to East Tennessee State University and set up a middle for computer science. graduated from there a while back. They've got some fun professors there. A lot of them came from NASA, so they like talk about shooting lasers at missiles from space. There you go. Neat, neat projects. Yeah. Semesters were fun. I didn't know that I was asleep. But yeah, then I graduated, worked at actually one of the Shurians competitors for a while. And say that is where I want to start off, I was actually, I will say one of the worst people you could imagine to work with.

And I was actually probably the worst example of a leader, you probably like, I was that guy for a while. I love the EU, man. I love the EU. Yeah, it is quite an interesting thing. I say about year three or four, I think about year three in my career, I was still a junior developer and still kind of just at that level. I actually don't know why I'm still a junior. being the blind person when it comes to all this stuff went to HR to like, hey, I don't know why I'm not getting promoted. My managers aren't telling me the whole thing. I met with the CIO to try to figure this stuff out.

And at that point, my boss, who was actually very good at leadership at the time, clued me in that I was really bad at building influence and working with people. And a lot of this stemmed from a perspective. In terms of working with people, my brain was almost focused on how I would write code. And a lot of it goes back to, you know, just a mindset of, you know, I wanted things to be efficient. So I want to get straight to the point and I want to just tell people the current state of things. Right. And that was like, I didn't want to beat around the bush.

So I would just tell people, Hey, this is bad or Hey, this is, this is crap. Or what you've done is stupid. And no finesse. Not really a great way to work. No finesse whatsoever. Exactly. And so I picked up two books, the 21 Laws of Leadership, that was recommended by my manager at the time, and how to win friends and influence people, two great books in terms of how, not only how to be a leader, but just how to be a decent person when it comes to talking to other folks and not just immediately turning them off to just you and your idea. And, you know, went from there kind of did a book club type of thing with them to try to just get an understanding of that idea.

And, you know, I will say that from a coder perspective, I had to just change my perspective. It was no longer the most efficient thing was not for me to just, you know, tell people how it was. And the same way it's not necessarily efficient to just write a bunch of code and then just ship it. I curated and worked on my classes in terms of the objects and the code I was writing. I should do the same exact thing with the people that I deal with and curate those relationships and keep those things healthy. And that perspective, that mindset, while small, really started to just tune my head toward, I'll say healthy influence, and that started me down the path of being able to really set an expectation on what kind of leadership style I was going to have.

It kind of gave me all these things that I needed as a toolset to start becoming a leader. And some point left there went work for Shurin, my competitor at the time, struggled a bit to be a leader. It was the first real shot at it. Trying to just bounce around, get an idea, see what it was like. I think in trying, I think my team almost all quit once due to misunderstanding that was really, you know, blown over and fixed and happy. Sure. But it's a journey, to say the least. Yeah. Other than, you know, worked at a couple of different places, eventually, you know, became, you know, a team lead, can manager, different direct reports.

And you know, just really kind of, you know, getting those things tuned in, trying to get an understanding of people. Which is something I want to say is a blind spot, but I Can see other people and get a good read on them can't see myself really well Make sure I got a great you know outward appearance in terms. Yeah So it is you know, it's one of those things where you know, I think that I like to tell my story because I I didn't think this was necessarily something that you could learn or the skill that you could pick up. And it's been one of those things where I think that leadership, building influence, having humility, those types of things have made me stand out and are why You know, writing good code, writing good solutions is important in part other.

But why do people listen to anything I have to say? Being smart is great. But I'm happy to be kind of smart but have my team be honest with me and have everyone tell me when I'm wrong. That's the thing that is one of the most valuable things when you're a leader is when people are willing to tell you that you're wrong and they're comfortable doing that, you will get a much better solution or strategy or project, whatever you're looking for. Yeah. So, first off, I mean, amazing story, right? I mean, that's so, so good. And I want to kind of break down some things and get tactical here.

for the people who are watching, you're like, rich, great story, man. Like, that's awesome. Like, I love that so much. Like, you've become a good leader. I get that. So, but people are sitting here, they're like, because I'm with you, right? I'm kind of curious about digging into this perspective, because I think like you can't really be, I think you can become a leader. I think it's sometimes you're born with it or not. It sounds like you became a leader, right? You took the steps, you did the work, you read the books, to become a leader, what would you say some key things? Like give me one, two, maybe three specific things that people who are watching are just like, man, I want to become a leader.

I want to lead. How do I get there? And I don't know if you can give three specific, tangible things to start with that really haven't that you enacted in your career. Oh, absolutely. So the biggest one in terms of becoming a leader is being able to influence others. Influencing others is one of those things where there is an art to it. There is, people are funny things, but I like to say that software, Software, I think, is a people problem as much as it is a technology problem. So, being able to influence people, not even co-workers. I often find that the skill to influence helps make it so that going to buy on a car is a little easier.

Going and getting your landlord to replace your air conditioner, a little easier. All these things that you need to do day to day, not just with your team, is made easier with the ability to influence. And so I will jump up and down and say, how do I win friends, influence people? A book that is like 100 years old now? Still popular, still accurate, still useful to this day. Just because that's something that I think people don't necessarily understand all the ins and outs of. There are certain things where just how you approach a problem. I love that the book starts off with the idea of, I think the author says he loves cream and strawberries.

He goes fishing and he tries to use cream and strawberries to fish and the fish don't like it. They like worms. So you have to stop thinking about in terms of what you like and what you're trying to tell people. and need it. So good. You need it. So what do they want? They need it. So if we're talking about influencing, like if someone's watching us like, man, I get it, like I want to influence people. So you're saying like you really need to understand the other person. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, it's tough one. You got to pick up on things. You have to make some assumptions sometimes.

And that's, that's okay. I hate to generalize other people. But sometimes you just have to imagine like, I, I think this person might like this and they might they might not No one's going to complain if you ask him and say hey, what are you into? Hey, let's talk about something that you find interesting right, you know, I think the people love Subconsciously they love to have people just be interested in them in some Yeah And it's it's not necessarily a negative thing if it's genuine if there's some genuine interest like I want to figure out how you work not from a malicious perspective, just from a, so we can work well together.

I think the art of asking questions is incredibly underrated. Like asking someone about themselves and being generally interested is a lost art. And I feel like as a leader, and correct me if I'm wrong, I feel like a leader like taking interest, asking questions, how are you doing? How did you solve this problem? Are there anything I need to prove? I think asking those questions is just huge. Do you agree? Yeah, yeah. I think that people will sometimes forget that their own decisions are kind of the summation of their life experience. When someone says, hey, you should drive this car. You are probably gonna build up all these types of like, well, if I drive this car, I had this bad experience, or I knew this was too large for me, or I knew the gas mileage was bad, those types of things build up in a person and that's what helps make them make that decision.

So when someone else has a different perspective or different insight, they have a knowledge and experience and just a perspective that you would probably like to have or at least like to appreciate. I don't wanna say anyone else is wrong. Oftentimes people just don't have the same experiences I do. And that goes into that decision. I love that. So finding those things can be quite an interesting experience just in terms of, you know, how, how a person ticks this sometimes faster. So Elliot commented, Elliot, what's going on, dude? He says developers can be flaky or flat out lazy and entitled at times. Whoo. Uh, how do you keep yourself and your team from those pitfalls?

Have you got stories specifically around these problems cropping up? Thanks, I appreciate you. Yeah. Yeah, developers are certainly an interesting group. I think more, a developer team is more interesting than most people probably expect. I think that the flaky or lazy, those are probably things that are more indicative of folks not necessarily being driven. Some folks need to be, are self-driven. Others need to be driven by some other mechanism. You know, be it working on a cool project or finding a problem that they appreciate. It is definitely a case where developers are creative in a regard. And sometimes just do the nature of business and it being a job, you almost have to mute that creativity in order to stay sane.

Because it can be rough sometimes. Right. So I often try to make it so that there's some sort of space or inclusion for developers To where they can you know vent their frustrations we can take their insight into things The entitlement is definitely something that You know I always try to say You know hey, we're we're a really good team and This this thing seems like an odd thing, but at the same time if we Don't set our own really good example. How can we expect other teams to set good example? So good. So good. Yeah, I love that. So yeah, that's not one every single thing.

Yeah, absolutely. So let me let me ask you this. And so from a leadership perspective, what are some things that you have done with your team? Because I'm really curious, right? As as as someone who managed a team of non recruiters, I'm always looking to learn new things from leaders and I'm genuinely curious what are some things that you've implemented with your team as of late or maybe a cool tip or trick that you've done recently that you're willing to share? Yeah one thing I make every team member aware of as a strategy is I am always trying to challenge you in a healthy way I like to imagine it being like a throttle in a car, a gas pedal.

I'm going to give you a little bit of gas. I'm going to stress you out a little bit, not so that you're stressed, not sure that you're overworked. It's just to be some healthy pressure, some acknowledgement that this feels like a good place for you to be, you know, hey, you're going to own a whole project. This is going to be a thing you do. You're going to come to these meetings and you're going to discuss this because I feel like this is something that is appropriate. I've got your back, but at the same time, you're gonna like get into this new world, this new area.

But at the same time, I have your back. It's there, if it's too much. Letting someone own a process, like giving them a little bit more responsibility than they typically would probably ask for. Yeah, but you have to make sure and explain to everyone that this is a healthy thing, something that you're not supposed to be stressed out over. It's growth not stress. That's a critical thing to where folks understand that, yeah, this is new, this is sometimes weird. I get to see new perspective. I get to find out what conversations you're having, that type of stuff without necessarily just letting someone go. Because having that blanket of comfort of comfort fall into is surprisingly strong.

People, well, but, and I don't think it's gonna be highlighted enough, man. I'm gonna do this for you. I think that's what really makes you a good leader is that your team knows that you have their backs. Right? I think as leaders, I think a lot of the pitfalls and we've talked about this, right? We've talked about this in a sense of, your people have followed you. Yeah. Your people have followed you from company to company to company and I think and you just said something very big right there is because I have their backs and I don't think that can be overstated enough. Yeah and it's funny people kind of trust you until that is tested and then you have to have their back once or twice just say hey you know we tried something new here it It kind of worked out.

It kind of didn't. We were trying to grow people. We've had a lot of success, but this was a thing that we missed. Just saying that and just calming it down and just owning up to it. As leaders, every book will say, the team fails. It's a leader's fault. If the team succeeds, it's the people. I think that, you know, just having to exercise that a couple times for a person or just in general for team, you know, gives you so much, you know, advantage in terms of just them actually believing and them having some like, say, faith or, you know, actually like subconsciously trust you.

Because it all times it's just, you know, they want to trust you, but they'd rather not test it. Yes, absolutely. Sometimes, you know. So are there any other things? So obviously, giving your team a little bit more work, a little bit more responsibly, letting them own a process, are there any other things that you've implemented check-ins or one-on-ones or anything like that? I would say that one of the most helpful things just toward getting alignment is setting up a vision and almost a challenge. I almost always have a challenge for my team, not in terms of something being challenging, but just I want to be doing this.

I want to retire this system. I want to be using this technology. I feel like this is good for us, it's good for you, it's good for the company. I think we should be doing this. And having people have insight into where you feel like we should go, but also why is very valuable. Because people kind of wrap up. I'm excited to say that thing. Talk with the start with why. Yeah. Yeah. And there's, it's one of those things that you can read all day long about what it is to have a good team. I feel like Dan North has a really good talk from, I think go to Khan about effective teams.

And I think he phrased it up pretty well. He'd rather have a team that doesn't necessarily write the most code, maybe doesn't write much of any code, but is solving a lot of problems, or at least finding the right problems to solve. And I feel that with that kind of combination of being able to influence people, being able to point someone in direction and having the right mentality on the team, almost the right culture of how you solve a problem, kind of gets your team really geared toward being really, really good without a ton of specific like hand holding. You know, because they are adults often, sometimes not, but if you tell a person what success is and that's consistent, people almost always work to be successful.

I love that. And as long as it's a pretty obvious and hard thing to ignore and like easy to understand and it's just consistent, people typically work out pretty well. I love that. So as we start to wrap it up here, a few more questions for you. So one thing I admire about you as an individual is your EQ, you know, and being aware that you were terrible leader of start, that you went through the processes, right? You did the work. And you may have already mentioned it, but I wanna bring it back up again. What would you say your biggest weakness is, or no, no, your biggest, sorry, not biggest weakness, what is your biggest failure as a leader that you are willing to share?

I have been demoted a couple times as a leader. Really? Yes. And, you know, part of it is, you know, when you're a leader, it is a different world. You are higher up in the company. There are different expectations. There are things that surprise you. And you will get to the point where you have to ask yourself, do I look good as an employee, or do I sacrifice my team? Yeah, those types of things are like, do I make my team work a bunch of over time so that my bosses aren't upset? Or do I push back, get kind of in trouble that my team is happy?

Those are things that you will have to deal with. It is sometimes rare, but you kind of have to ask yourself and almost kind of find out what type of person you are. And apparently I'm the type that will defend my team to the degree and will not necessarily make them work 80 somewhat hours and that has resulted in the motions or that's also why your team follow you everywhere too. Yeah. I think it's yeah. I hope it's more than just that. It's not because I get demoted for them, but yeah. Yeah. Don't worry. I'll take part of the team guys. Yeah. I got it, I got it.

But it is one of those things where it's not always just all success. But you start to figure out, I'm this type of leader, and you can say, hey, what type of organization wants a type of leader? For example, Evikor is very much interested in that type of leader. And I have some stronger language about that and some better understanding about how that that all, you know, that works and how we can communicate and what people will reward. So, you know, that's helped me find a better job that I like a whole bunch. And at the same time, it's helped me kind of appreciate some jobs that just, I was never going to succeed at because I'm just not, I'm not able to do that as a person.

I love that. So, so there's a question. So do Elliot's question. Elliot's another really good question. And then we'll wrap it up here. So Elliot goes, how do you structure one on ones with more senior devs versus and equals in junior devs? What do you do differently based off seniority if you do? How do you keep it organic conversation but still focused on the team goals? Elliot, again, another question, man. Yeah. So Rich, what are your thoughts on one on ones, man, with different seniority levels? So I have been developing professionally for, see, 13 years now. I am of the opinion that I am no longer a good mentor for Junior or mid-level developers.

So much EQ. There is a concept of Drake. There is the concept of Drayfisquary. Once again, this goes back to Dan North's talk. It's really good. You'll probably hear a lot of me or him and me when we're talking. But it's basically, if you pair someone with a mid-level and make the mid-level mentor the junior. They're not too far off. They kind of just had been there. But me, when I was a junior, we were still doing, you know, classic ASP and people had just discovered Ajax or just talked about it and talked about the concept that was going to take me home. And the world is just completely different now.

So I've forgotten what it's like to be a junior and what it is like to be a junior now is no longer true. So my main thing with juniors is I am trying to ensure that they're growing, that they're still challenged, get understanding, but most of all comfort them because almost all juniors are panicking all the time, worried that they're not going to have their job because they're an imposter. So you're trying to call out, hey, you're doing a great job, you are doing good pointing out the things that they've done well. Seniors, I try to pull in, I try to mentor seniors. I try to say, hey, these are things, this is a concept, this is the situation I ran into, this is how I work through it.

I give them the opportunity to talk about anything. There are some really good books about one-on-ones. In particular with people you're trying to mentor, or they're kind of like, I need to put out fires or someone looks upset or they don't say anything and we're just gonna talk about something that I walk through. So do you pair up, so if you're saying that you know yourself and know you're really only for seniors, do you find another mentor for one on ones and mentorship on your team to do the more junior to mid levels? Yeah, I typically try to have everyone having a mentor and someone they mentor themselves.

just because I think people really underestimate the value that a junior can bring just for the mid-level having someone that can help a mentor because that's going to grow the mid-level into a senior and help that junior kind of move up through the ranks and get that like kind of just the way they need to hear it sometimes different than a way a senior would say it so I kind of have a ladder of you know maybe principals, went through senior, senior, mid, mid to junior and just keeping and I saw a train and even to the point where we try to have the juniors go out and give talks to NSS.

That's awesome. Just so that there's a constant chain of them seeing where they're at, seeing where they can go, having someone near them to help them out. And it's just not my idea. Lots of leadership books out there talk about this stuff, but I find that that someone having a buddy that's not too far away from him. Someone having a buddy. There's one thing you get out of this session right now. Just have a buddy. I love that so much. I love that. So LinkedIn user, I can't see you. I don't know if that means we're not connected, but not a question, Rich, just a thanks for being a manager who stands up for their team and fights against the content ADR week.

So many managers don't have a confident voice to make that stand sadly. So again, Rich, thank you for being you. So I, so to finish it out, I know I said, what is your biggest failure, one of your biggest failures? What do you think your biggest accomplishes as, as a leader? I know we talked about your teams moving with you from company to company. I think that's, that's a huge accomplishment. But I know if there was another accomplishment that you wanted to end this guidance counselor 2.0 live session on. Uh, I, I will say that, uh, you know, those people that have followed me, um, not only, they've grown.

I look back on a lot of them and I see, they started off with me as juniors now their team leads themselves. Seeing them and their growth and their success is kind of my success. I look back at them and see them being awesome developers and it just makes me real happy just because it means I did something right, at least in time to And, you know, it's just one of us to look back and see them and just go, you know, I had a part in that. They work really hard themselves, but, you know, it's kind of cliche, but as a leader, you know, your people are effectively what makes you a break shoe.

And I love that. I love that man. Well, Rich, thanks for coming on, man. Guys, guys, it's a few people know I appreciate you a ton. It's always good hanging with you. And thanks again. I appreciate it.