w/stephon parker, csm & engineering manager at eventbrite

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. So that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco, VACO.com is how to get in touch with me old-fashioned email social media at T D S N T D E S S E Y N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. So Steven, enough with me running my mouth. Give me a rundown of who you are, what you do, we'll go from there. Yes, sounds good. So everyone who doesn't know me, my name's Stefan.

I am an engineering manager at Eventbrite. I was calling you a woman. We should have checked that before. I never, it's okay. I said your name all the time before we even got in here. So we're good. I've been engineering manager at Eventbrite. I've been there since August. I've been doing engineering leadership for about six years now, been in a tech, a part of the tech community for about 12. Um, yeah. So really excited to be on here, have a lot, have a lot of experience, well positive, negative, but I want to focus on the puzzle. Let's talk about success, how we can get people, I can get people in this industry cause that's what it's all about.

Well, all right. Well, so let's go from there. Right. So, so we're going to, we're switch a route. You want to talk about how getting people in the industry as a hiring manager, how do you balance hiring noobs, juniors, noobies who want it, and how to balance an engineering team to where you have a good balance of new folks and then senior tenured folks? Yeah, so that's a really good question first and foremost. And I think one of the biggest challenges is understanding the work first and foremost. I think you have to understand the ask. So a team that might be focused on something that's like really advanced, something that like doesn't existed before, I think bringing junior folks in, it could be overwhelming, especially if you don't have the guidance, you don't have the structure in place.

So that's, I think one of the most important things is before, you know, when you want to bring your senior folks in, that's nice, these are the guys with the experience. These are your like, your commandos, your Navy Seal, the folks you're sending in first. I, one of the things I'm very careful about and have always been is, is studying folks who don't have as much experience to your folks up for success stuff. The structure isn't there. I don't necessarily not consider them, but I'm very careful about what I do, because I don't want to bring anyone in and set them up for failure. Because we don't have good mentorship, we don't have good leaders, and I have folks who are ready to help them grow and teach them and have the time to do that.

I don't want to bring them in there, and they have a terrible experience, because I've seen people who have left the field because of that. So their first job or their second job was just that places that weren't ready to support that level. So instead they end up, well then it must be me, I'm not good at this, so I need to go find something else. And that's not necessarily the truth. It just means that the place that you went to didn't have the structure to support you at where you're at. So I'm very intentional about how I do that. My current team is pretty well balanced in that space, which is something I'm really excited about.

We have a really nice balance between our senior folks, the ones who are knowledgeable, making some of the harder technical engineering advanced decisions versus the folks who are, hey, I'm just gonna knock out this task or grouping of tasks to be able to deliver some really high quality work. Why do you think companies struggle so much though? Right? I mean, cause again, I think Eventbrite does a great job built in Nashville, I think does a great job in hiring juniors. If you have any other companies that do a good job, I wanna shout them out here. But why do you think it's so hard to hire more?

more junior or 10-made level talent. I think that's a lovely question. But I think I'll start with kind of the most obvious answer, which is I think a lot of places are looking to make money. That's reality. So taking time, so slowing down to teaching junior means I'm not making money as quickly because- Almost like Stefan was in listening to my previous talk. Yeah, like their focus is on is on like is on you know, monitization of their platform, right? So in order to slow down on that in order to in order to teach junior folks how to slow down on that a little bit Right because that means I have to pause and take a step back And it means that my my senior my more experienced folks aren't just crunching out aren't just turning out features aren't just making improvements Right, so I think companies are you know, I was looking at a a job post in the other day.

And like it was for a junior role, but they wanted five years of experience. Seriously? How? How does, like make this make sense? And so I think one, we've changed the bar so much that we've made it almost unattainable for some folks, but then two. Agreed. Two, I think that monetization over growth, people, people, I think all that is where we're starting to see like some of the challenges, as we're companies, we're seeing a lot of the challenges that. And that is where it's really hard. And you know, watching companies like Eventbrite, another good company that I think is really doing some amazing work in that space is, ah, god, they're right here in my hometown and I cannot even hear that.

Sorry, ACV auctions. Okay. It's a really good job. So they're a company that is there are I think they're valued at a billion dollars now but essentially they they make they cut off the middleman between buying a vehicle. So it's direct from the from the seller to the buyer so they do a really great job of hiring junior folks in. I think that structure has to be in place for an organization to be able to successfully do it otherwise you're they're going to fail and it's not the failure is not their fault, but they don't know that. For sure. So I want to get a little bit more tactical dealing with, and I haven't asked anybody this, dealing from an engineering lead upwards on how to create buy-in to hire more junior talent.

How do you create that buy-in? Because again, it's a mentality shift, right? You're not a sales driven organization, or most people are sales. SDD is what I say. right with another three acronym but SDB sales driven development how do you create buy-in among leaders so I think what's nice is is there there's a there's kind of two sides of that right so there's the buy-in among leadership and there's the buy-in of the team so if your team right so if it the way that I tell my leadership is hey if we get folks in early right and we invest in them and and they grow here and they are able to achieve things here and see the results of their growth right here in this organization.

That creates investment and loyalty, meaning that those folks aren't going to hop in a year or two or six months when a better monetary offer comes along, because they're going to think about everything they were able to gather from here, which means they stay longer. So these are our five year, our seven year, our 10 year focus. And then these are the folks who eventually we're hoping turn around and decide that they want to move into to leadership, right? They want to move into leadership. It doesn't necessarily mean they want to be a manager, but those aren't, those are going to turn into your staff level, your principal level, your tech fellow engineers.

And some of them might become leaders, right? They might become your next level engineering manager who now not only is familiar with your product, but because you invested in them, they've now created that culture of leadership and investment that they're going to turn around and do the same thing to their teams. That's how they grew. So yeah, that's how I kind of sell that picture leadership and so far I've yet to have anyone say you're wrong on that. I love that. I love that. So, so then let's move into, I guess, engineering leadership and culture as a whole where, where do you see, I guess, gaps within IT right now, you know, IT leadership and maybe what are some, we can go a bunch of different ways with this question.

So you take it however you want to take it and then maybe obviously just some, some special sauce of Right? So like, what do you live by? Like, you know, some principles. So, all right. That was a loaded question. Let's, I have so many questions. It's, I just kind of sometimes just like word vomit. So let's start here. What are some biggest issues that you see in it leadership right now? There's a huge disconnect between the folks who are doing the work and the leaders who are setting the roadmap. I wholeheartedly believe nine times out of ten, actually like nine point nine times out of ten.

My engineers know exactly where the problems are in the platform and that's any application. It's not just, it's not, and I'm not just talking about like from the front end side, like from the UI side. I mean like how the application functions, how it stands up, how it processes data, how it works, I guarantee you right now if I called my team together and said, hey, where are the biggest problems in the platform? Like, I'd get a list. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But that means like, hey, these are the folks that I want to talk to. As we're deciding, you know, as we're planning a roadmap planar initiative, these are the folks that I want to talk to because the work that they want to do or they're identifying more than likely also contributes to this, you know, to this path that we're on of success for for the platform, right?

So, you know, I always tell people, you know, a customer doesn't necessarily care, right? How neat your code is. They don't care how well it's commented. They don't care about any of that. Like, right, they would just want the platform to work. But when we want to add new features, we want to build up the platform on a scale, what we, the ease of being able to do that, because we invested in those other areas, is the benefit that the customer gets, because now I got this new feature, and rather than it taking me eight months to implement, It took me four, or took me two, because I prepared for scalability.

I prepared, I took the time to do things the right way. Like building a house, right? Like, you know, it's real, you can build up, you can build a real nice house, but if your choice aren't set correctly, your house will collapse on itself, and that's the same thing with application. So I think that's one of the biggest connects that I see, is just not that like, you know, not that coming down from leadership to kind of come down to the IC level, to the individual contributor level, and make sure that there's like some connection there. They usually do that through their managers, and that's not it.

Like that doesn't, I can't connect with, you know, my highest leadership through my manager because it's like a game of telephony, it's a water job. Yeah, so you think, so from what I hear you say, you think like, let's just say director VP level should still be touching base with ICs? Oh, absolutely. One of my, one of the best experiences I had with a manager years ago was a couple, his boss a couple levels up once a month would actually just go through and meet with whole teams. He'd said like an hour, maybe an hour and a half with, with whole teams within his entire like purview.

And he would just sit and chat with them. Um, and like it's so him and him and I would chat on kind of like one of us and he said, Hey, I met with this team. Whoo. Like they were, they were, they were on fire. And then, you know, he said, he also said, you know, I met with this team and it seems like they were afraid to say things in front of me because they didn't know how I might react or how I might feel. So there was some work that we, you know, him and I talked about doing together there but. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's important to have those conversations.

It, it makes them more human, right? Like it makes them more human and makes them more reachable. I love that. So we have to say really quick. So I see individual contributors. So essentially that's anyone who's outside the management level. Yeah, that's a good call out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Elliot wants us to define doing things the right way teases out. I forgot what we were talking about doing things the right way. But I think I think it comes in leadership and that's what and that's what Stefan was just kind of going over about, you know, obviously, director VPs really getting down in the weeds, you know, with their ICs individual contributors.

What are some other things as well kind of doing it the right way, some other pitfalls that you've seen. Yeah, so I think sometimes that rush to ship. So that rush to ship, like we have to get this out because this is, you know, once we get this out it's gonna make us money instead of doing, I totally believe in quality over quantity. Now of course there's some timeframes that do come with that, right? Like, this shouldn't take us forever to get these things out. But the reality is that I'd much rather, I'd much rather do it with a quality to it so that we can build that trust with our customers.

But then the other thing is, one thing I'm seeing that a lot of companies are really struggling with is how to find that good pace with the agile way of working specifically with the agile methodology and then figuring out which framework works for them. I'm seeing companies who are like mixing, they're doing agile kind of with some framework kind of with waterfall kind of wrapped all around it. And it's, I don't know what to do with that because it's like, we're doing agile so we can get away from waterfall, while we're mixing these two. So I think one of the things I've seen with a lot of companies is that they're still trying to, we have to have all our work done and then we can ship rather than saying, hey, I'm gonna ship this thing because as all my teachers in high school told me, because I struggle to turn in homework sometimes, hey, turning in something is always better than just taking a zero, right?

Like even if you turn that assignment and you get a 20, a 20 is still better than taking a zero. And that was not fundamentally better, but it's still better. So that's the way I feel about, I think a lot of couples are struggling with that. I think they should ship more consistently, more often, and iterate, because then you have a story now, right? Like I get to tell the story of how I shipped from 5% to 100 rather than I shipped at 100 and then I had to figure out everything that's broken. So let me ask you this. So this is the question I asked all engineering leaders on the show.

And we kind of talked about a little bit, but I want to be very specific with this question. Why is IT leadership so shitty? Oh, man, that's a lot of questions. Obviously, that is very tongue-in-cheek. It's not all should be crossed the board, but you get what I'm saying. I hear you. So I think there's three reasons. One, most engineering leaders do not stay connected to the technology. I heard someone make a comment recently about something, about doing something that's literally a 20 year old practice. I'm like, yeah, you did that with C++ when it first came out. Are there another one with C++? All the C++.

Love that, love the language. I'm having a great language. But like, I'm sure somebody will. It's okay. But like, I think like that's staying up to date and that's one thing that I do. I stay up to date with the technology. So what I'm talking to my engineers and making suggestions. I might still be wrong, but I'm a lot closer and have a much better understanding. So I can support them better. I can support them way better. Rather than, so if they say, hey, I think we should do things this way. Okay, now I have some context for this. I can walk away and say, I need more resource.

I need more time, we need more support. And here's the reasons why. Rather than putting that entire burden on my team to educate me because I'm not taking the time to do it myself. So that's one. That's reason number one. Reason number two is, which I think we talked about a little bit already, which is the disconnect as you travel up the ladder, the less you're talking to the people who are actually doing the work. That is a problem. I personally like I don't do any individual contributor level work on my team per se, but I understand the work that they do and I make sure that I understand the work that they do so that one not only I can have compassion for them but then two to make sure that if they need levels of support I'm able to offer that.

If I'm so far away from them from like how we have conversations and understanding how they do the work they're doing there's no room for me to do that. And then the last thing I think is just, which is super important and probably the most important is just kind of being, so, and I think the pandemic exposed this, right? Is that people are people, right? So like it was easy for me to go into the office and have my office life completely separate from my home life pre-pandemic. But then my home life and my office life, Like my couch that I sit on is 10 feet away from where I'm sitting right now, right?

So I'm not that far from being able to walk into a room and check my computer later on at night. I'm not that far from being able to jump on or stand for a couple extra hours, right? So having that compassion for understanding that home and office became the same. And now we have to like, some people are having human experiences on a regular basis and we're not accounting for that, right? like we're not accounting for that. And because we're not, that's a problem. So people are, that's why I think people are, that's why I think people are just like running away from jobs now because you will not, I don't have to deal with this.

I don't have to deal with it here. I'm gonna go somewhere else where they tell me they're gonna treat you well. So those are my three things. I love it. Man, we just go ahead and end it right there. You just, I was just straight, straight fire. I want to obviously, you know, we've had a bunch of comments and I want to get caught up here. Let's see, we're going back a little bit. Mentoring juniors is key back to the mentorship conversation. Felix, my lack of getting that mentorship when I was at juniors affecting now interesting. I'm telling you, it's huge. I, uh, stavani, got any thoughts on this at all?

Yeah, absolutely. So John, what I, I would say I've seen that before. I've actually also been there. So there have been concepts and or things that I was afraid to do. So when I first started learning how to program, um, the people who were mentoring me had very little patience. So I just need to figure everything out. Someone I would ask questions such as like, I was never taught Git, right? Like no one ever taught me how to use Git or version control. So when I started asking questions about it, I was a lot of lack of support around that. And the community that exists today for tech and engineering did not exist when I started coding.

So one of the things I would say is true is one, try and distance yourself from that, right? Like try and distance yourself from that experience. That's, it's okay not to know things, right? Like it's okay. I look up stuff all the time. I used to have a wall of cheat sheets. It's not here anymore But they still exist. So that's one thing and then two Like when I look at the difference between a mid and senior level I look at like there's you know the coding there's the tech skill behind it But then there's also those people skills behind it So how how are you able to think about problem solving?

How are you able to approach a problem? And if you're struggling in those spaces feel free to like connect with some people if you haven't and talk to, if you're not following, I'm just gonna give one quick person a shout out here. Danny Thompson loved that dude. My man. That's my bro. My man Danny. Danny, what I love about Danny, Danny had a conversation the other day. And he was just like, Hey, I feel like I'm a senior level here, but a junior level here. And I'm not afraid to ask for help. And when he said that, I'm just like, you're Danny, like, you don't need me help.

But that was a good thing to know. So it's okay to have that difference, John. So just want to throw it out there, you're way man. I love that. Let's see here. Yeah, Robert, obviously going over just how many ads and yeah, but job postings are terrible. That's another episode in and of itself actually went over how to write a good job description last week's episode. Yeah. So if you want to go take a look at that. Sorry, I got things calling on my computer. I'm not used to that. So yeah, check out that. hiring managers, mostly all right, terrible job descriptions. Let's see here.

What else? Let's see here. Yeah, going with us 100 cent agree, there's a huge disconnect with IT leadership, been in there for 14 years, seeing every day. So what are you looking out for Junior? Hey, let's talk about this. So Victor comes in, so what are you looking out for Junior? He's talking to John, but I'm gonna ask you this, Estefan, what are you looking for when it comes to Junior Dev resumes? So I think that's really interesting because my expectations for junior devs are so low because you're I look at them they're just getting in the field right so like do you have a basic understanding of like and when I say basic I mean truly basic understanding of like of engineering concepts I don't expect you to be able to answer every single question like you know, are you able to, you know, are you able to, do you know what an IDE is?

Do you know how to, I don't know, are you at least familiar with the concept of version control? I look at like, you know, little projects and things like that. I don't have high expectations. That's a hard question for you to answer, because my expectation for juniors is super low. Well, so then what do you look for then in the interview? Um, in the interview, I really, more than the interview, I look for team more than anything else. Will you work well as a team? Yeah, like will you, not even just like will you be in this festival? Like can you problem solve, right? So like if you run into this issue, how would you take care of it?

So I just had an interview recently where I, you know, kind of posed a question, said, hey, you know, let's just say you're working on something, you're working on, I don't know, updating a README file. And for some reason, it's just, I don't know, it's just not, the code's not committing. How do you go about, like how do you go about fixing that? Yep. And, you know, the person I was talking to said, you know, hey, well, you know, I, first thing I do is, know, ID sometimes act a little funny. So I would like close in and reopen it, which any of you who are familiar with Visual Studio 2015 know that that was a legitimate solution about half the time to making that work.

Like it just just closed the program and reopen it. So, you know, I know to some people like that bar may sound super low, but like they're new, like they're new to the field, right? So they're there, it should be low. So I look for things like that. I test very, very light on the knowledge piece and more on the, do you have the capacity and the capability to learn? Because then I can hook you up with a mentor who can grow you in the tech space and we can skip, like I can, I can skip a couple of years for you if I know that you have the ability to learn and to grow.

Then you don't have to spend those little years self-learning and going through like all that other stuff. So that's what I look for. I love that time. Let's see here. This is why I love going live because we just get real-time questions. Going through here, going through here. Oh, I love this question from Elliot. Elliot, thanks for tuning in today. How can a manager come alongside a struggling IC to get them into a better state? Where have you seen this go either way tips? This is a great question. So I am very prescribed to the idea of performance management. performance management puts a responsibility, it splits a responsibility for on the on the individual so whoever that is And then also their managers to the manager they report you and it splits it like this It says for the manager.

I am responsible for consistently and constantly interact Not constantly but consistently interacting with you in a way so that you know where you're at And I am telling you in a manner one in a manner and I don't if anyone if you haven't read this read radical candor It's a great book to sum it up. I don't read. So I'll just keep interviewing people like you. And then I'll eventually hear the book. So, Yana, I'll sum it up for you. Radical candor says that I am to give you feedback that is meaningful and that will help you grow and do it in such a way that is still respectful of who you are as a person.

Some people take radical candor as I can say anything. However, I don't want as long as I'm telling the truth. It's not what it is. So really as the manager, your responsibilities and make sure that you're interacting with them, they know where they're at. You're telling them truthfully in those conversations, I will tell you are hard. It's hard to tell someone that they're not performing well. It's harder to fire someone. You know what I mean? So take the time to let them know, hey, here's where and make sure that you're telling them, here's where you are. Here's the expectation. Making sure that those two places are defined makes it makes it a lot easier to have that conversation.

The second part so that falls on the individual contributor is to make sure that they're invested in this. So there may be people who like, I'm over this place, I don't wanna be here anymore. Cool, then we need to have a conversation about how I can successfully support you to get you out of here before I have to fire you. Right, and that's not pushing you out the door, but you wanna work somewhere else? I just wanna help you get to where you're gonna be happy and successful. I think that- I'm gonna have to go real quick. I feel like firing shouldn't be a hard thing.

And here is why. If you crit me if I'm wrong, radical candor here, radical can be good. If you have done a good job of communicating with your employees, firing should not be hard. So when I say the firing's hard, it just... Well, no, no, no. So Mitch was here with what I just said, because I think hiring managers, people don't fire because hiring managers don't communicate. therefore they feel bad, they feel guilty because there is a lack of communication. And so when they have to let that person, that person, they know that they have left that person on an island and so they feel guilty.

But if you are a hiring manager that consistently gives feedback, consistently walks through processes, you continually educate, you continually do peer reviews, there should already be a conversation like, hey, maybe this isn't working out and that is okay. Interesting your thoughts on that. No, no, no, I agree with you there. I agree with you. I think for me, I'm just a compassionate person. So like, it just doesn't feel good. It just doesn't feel good. I think outside of that, I 100% agree with you. Like outside of that. I've done all the work. I've done all the work. Yeah. I've done all the work. Yeah. Like crack commercials, like it's about to get mushy with all the Hallmark Christmas stuff coming on.

So like I get it. So yeah, I'm saying it. Yeah, when I've done everything and you just choose to continue not doing, I'm gonna, I don't wanna, I don't wanna do it because I'm just a compassionate person, but like outside of that, get out of here. Like, cause I've done everything, right? Like I've done it. And one of my old employees who I used to work with, like I'm a notorious note taker, like just notorious. So like it's funny, like I brought up something that he had told me like four months before and a one on one, one time. And he's like, how do you, like, oh, this is, you're never gonna get me.

Like you're never gonna, no one's ever gonna catch me from the side. Like, and it's not, And that's not the reason why I take notes. Like sometimes I like- What's been a good manager? Right. You gotta keep up with everything. There's so much, and that's the thing I think people sometimes forget is like there's so many inputs as a manager if you don't not take. If you don't not take it, if you're not keeping track you will fail and fall behind. I wanna jump down to something that Scott just said. And I agree with that wholeheartedly. So I- That's basically not what I said. Yeah.

A termination should never, Never be a surprise to someone. Like, but I don't, but I'll even go a step further than that. When performance reviews and performance evaluations come to an employee, they should never be surprised that their performance review, if they're successful and or they're not successful. If I'm letting my employee know, hey, your needs improvement here is the reason why, they should never look at me and go, well, I'm so, I thought I was doing everything right. How could you? If I'm doing my job, there's no way you could have believed that. So yeah, I'm very much on the side, especially like, especially negative news like that, but on the other side of it is, I've also tried to promote an employee, like as a surprise, and they didn't want, they didn't want to be promoted.

So I think like that can go for the other side too, and sometimes people lose that. Letting someone know, hey, I'm thinking about promoting you. Here's what the job responsibilities of player, are you interested? And just a chance they may say no. So that's, that's, I'll throw that out there for free. I'll go ahead and make that one. So, so last, all right. So obviously this one by really fast. My tea guy just messaged me. He says, I'm ready whenever you are. So, so let's wrap up with this. Sounds good. Just any last bits of nuggets that you want to always give kind of this last minute or two to, to my guests to just say anything that's on their mind on their hearts right now with what they're seeing either in leadership or the job seeker side.

So anything that you want to impart on individuals right now? For those who are looking for jobs or in the tech industry and looking for that in, I would just say don't give up. So I've realized it's a hard process. I realize that you might have applied to 100 jobs and you're not, you still haven't gotten that one. That's okay. I know it's tough, but that's okay. the field is super competitive right now. There's a lot of challenges, a lot of ambiguity going on out there. We're trying to figure out a world that we never thought we'd have to existed. This pandemic world is not one that we, like I think what I'm hearing people say is like from a company perspective, infrastructure-wise, we were prepared for, so a lot of places were more prepared than they let on, but the downside is like they were prepared like hardware-wise, they weren't prepared up here.

So that's it. Those are two different places to be in. So we're waiting for people to catch up to where the hardware, yeah, it's easy to give you one VPN and get you access to all the company's resources. So I'll just keep working at it. Feel free to connect with individuals. Danny's an awesome guy. Follow him, definitely follow him on LinkedIn, follow him on Twitter. He has some really great LinkedIn courses. I'm also happy to, if you need a resume review, want to do mock interviews, I'm gonna be opening that back up to folks soon. I love it. I love it. So yeah, I don't want to hold you up though.

You need to go get to your IT guys so you can get your stuff straight. Yeah, I appreciate it, man. All right, y'all. Hey, listen, thanks again for hanging out this morning. I appreciate it. Stefan, thank you so much. Absolutely, Taylor. I usually afterwards for a minute, but I got a bounce. So thank you again. Y'all go ahead and connect with him. Go ahead and connect with him. I had a bunch of chill bumps on this live call. So I will tell y'all this. If you feel like you have somebody in your network that needs to hear this, please share it because I am really big on world dealing with the same experiences, both on the hiring side and on the job seeker side.

The reason why I want to do this live show every morning is hopefully some, it resonates with somebody. So if you feel called to share it, go ahead and share it. And again, thank you all for tuning in. Tom, thank you so much. You're amazing. And let's touch base through text after this. Okay. Absolutely. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finish an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store.

I want this to be discoverable to others and the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it. Please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again if you need to reach out to me at Taylor at Vaco.com or at Tdastin on all social media handles and I hope you have a fantastic day.