w/jose mata, regional talent manager at slalom

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. So that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco, VACO.com is how to get in touch with me, old fashioned email, social media at T D S and T D E S S E Y N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. How does it give people what they want? Who are you? Talk about South Carolina, you think they are, and then we'll dive in. So, we will, Taylor, I'm just pumped to be in here.

I've been kind of like a, we both went to South Carolina graduate 2011. Been watching you from afar, from the LinkedIn realm and the videos. So I'm just happy to be here and be a part of the show. I'm here, buddy. Born and raised in Miami, went to school in South Carolina, lucky enough to be there on a baseball scholarship, ended up winning two national championships while I was there. Were you, well, fun fact, Jose, he won't say this. He was a rock star. Also, last NCAA championship at the old Black, or the old arena in Omaha, and then the first national champion in the new stadium, right?

That's right. We closed out Rosenblatt, which was, I think been there for 60 years, I think, and they built the new stadium. So as actually our ring say, it's last that black as the first ring and the second one says, I think opening up was just basically, yeah, we shut one down and opened up the other. Who is now real quick? Who did y'all beat the last national championship at black? So you see what I mean? Yeah, UCLA, we beat them 2010 and 2010 and 2011, we beat the University of Florida. Ha! Yeah, Florida. That was a lot. That's the last time we beat them.

Anyways, all right, cool. So how does that tell people what you do now? Like you're now. Like as an adult, that's a good one. Yeah, like an adult. So I'm in recruiting. I'm a regional talent acquisition manager for Slalom Consulting. So I support Slalom to company with over 40 offices across the United States and across the globe. I help support and lead our Southeast region, which includes six different cities, including Nashville. So just excited to be here. I love it. I love it. So I have not had a guest on the show but that's another recruiter. And that's one of the initiatives I wanna do because I think there is a difference between what I do and what Jose does.

And so what I wanna do is I wanna break down a little high level, but also Jose has held both roles. So I want Jose to break it down now. What's an agency recruiter and what's an internal recruiter and how should a job seeker be mindful when approaching both? So we'll kick it off with this question. That's a good question. To your point, I was in the agency side for seven years, seven and a half years, moved over into corporate in February. And I think that some of the biggest differences from a job seeker perspective is the relationship with the client, right? So when you're with an agency, it really depends on the company and the recruiter that you're working with to talk about what the relationship is with that client.

You could be one of 40 companies, right, that are attacking a position and you're one of 100 candidates, or you can be in a relationship with an agency that has a one-on-one connection, right, with the manager and it's exclusively for that company and there's that relationship. So I think as a job seeker, the biggest thing here is understanding like, all right, what's the actual relationship that the agency has with the company so that you can kind of see how much of an influence the agency actually has in presenting you and helping you get that offer. I love that. I love that. So then talk to me about what should, I guess, so what are some key indicators that job seekers should have in mind when dealing with an agency and an internal recruiter, you could say?

So do we want to talk about agency first or internal? So let's do internal first. So what I would say is one of the biggest things that I always tell everyone, especially when dealing with internal recruiters is, they're the gatekeepers, like, we're the gatekeepers in all this. Like we're step one in this, probably unfortunately way too long from a process, right? To get you hired. So every conversation, take it seriously, take it, you know, my goal is to always, you know, calm down the conversation and make it relational, but at the same time, it is an interview. You know, even though the recruiter from an internal perspective, like they're not making the hiring decision.

If we don't, if you don't impress the recruiter, you're not going to get to the manager. So just take it super seriously, understand that we believe our time is valuable. So to make it valuable. So that's, that's one of the things that I would say from an internal perspective is just understand that piece of it. And, and we know that you're overwhelmed. Like that's the hard part, right? The hard part is, can it try to overwhelm with a ton of recruiters, just like us, we're all sending messages to the same people. Me and Jose probably are spending the same actually for the same people to be totally frank.

So yeah. And like there is that balance and it's great for a candidate, right? Like you're blown up by recruiters right now. But also how do you do that without I don't want to say pissing off the recruiter. But like how do we do that while still staying cordial and making sure you have a good face? So do you do you as an internal recruiter, do you find because you've held the agency side? So again, I think this is, I'm so glad that you're able to make it this morning because you have both sides because that's one thing in my career I'm very naive with, right?

I've only had the agency side. Do you feel like candidates treat an agency recruiter differently than an internal recruiter? Or do you think it's about the same? And if it's not the same, what's kind of your, what you've seen? I would say I've been treated a little bit better since going to internal. And I'll tell you why I'll tell you is because like I'm scheduling the interviews Like I'm speaking with the manager immediately after the call Yeah, like it's that relationship and I mean I guess I could have said I was doing all that right What else do the agency right? Oh, yeah, I'm talking to manager here in 20 minutes, but it's not Inferred as much I would say on the agency side on the agency.

No, of course not right like I think I think I think I think the agency side, I think is so beautiful, right? Because you're really, like you're in this together. I think recruiters and candidates are in the same ecosystem. Like our job is to hire people and your job, you want to get a job, right? So like we're in the same world. So that's one of the things I love about recruiting is we're almost like the, we're the champions of our candidates, right? It's like we're the voices for them internally. And from like how we're treated yet internal, if you're doing it, right? I think that it's easier, it's a little bit easier to build a connection just because, yeah, I'm asking what your schedule's like and I'm putting it on the manager's schedule.

And then I'm being specific. I'm like, oh, I'm deep-reaching with them at three o'clock tomorrow. So it's just less gray, which in the agency side, we try to be as solidified as possible in our conversations, but we can't promise that either, right? Right, right. So I think that that's something that candidates, whether they know or not, I think they feel. And I think it's been a little bit of a different experience since going internal, I would say that. What do you like to see? So let's pivot really to the jobs you can write down again. Listen, for those of you all who are tuning in right now, you have a chance to be able to have like two recruiters on a call where you can ask any questions.

So I would say, I would say if you ever had a question about dealing with a recruiter, now is literally the episode to ask. So go ahead and throw up any questions that y'all may have. but Jose, when it comes to some pitfalls that you're seeing with job seekers right now, what are the major things you're seeing or that you saw on the agency side? I mean, I'm definitely open to hearing both sides. I would say one of the biggest things is, if it's on the resume, make sure you can talk about it. I think there's too many recruiters that do keyword searches and like, that's like how they recruit.

And I think unfortunately that kind of puts a negative stereotype for a lot of recruiters is like, oh, he has all these things resume, he must be great on it, right? Right. Right. It's good. But when you have a good recruiter on the phone, if I see something on there that I want that is interesting to me, I'm going to ask you to go into more detail. And I want to talk about how you did it, why you did it, what was the business challenge? So that's one of the biggest pitfalls I see is, especially with all these emerging technologies, right? Like everything's changing so quickly.

Oh, quickly. That I think if it's on the resume, a lot of times I'll ask about it. And just I'm excited to talk about it and then figure out like, oh, just kidding. Like, they didn't do it. But the rest of the experience is just as good. Like, people don't believe that their current experience is good enough to get them a job. And I promise you, like, it mostly is. Would you say, I'm curious to, I mean, typically what I'm, and I've interviewed some engineering leads and they're like, listen, if a resume's got 50% of what we need, we'll talk to them. For those of, for the people who are watching this now or the future who are insecure about their background who may not think they have all the skills, but they want to jump to a role.

I mean, what's some encouragement to them? And you kind of said it, but I kind of want to expound on that a little bit. I would say, yeah, be confident what you've done and what you've done well. Like what you do well, make sure that shows in your resume and make sure that shows in conversations and then find a company that's going to help you do what you do well and then help you expand, right? Like I think those companies exist pretty much everywhere is if you can go in somewhere doing one job and then you can expand your skills after that, that's super important.

But I think like the little things get on GitHub and if you want to learn something like build something there with that language that you want to do more of right? If you're trying to get into cloud or something if you can afford to get a certification go do that if you can't afford it go on LinkedIn learning I think it's like 10 bucks. Yeah. Take a cloud cloud course on LinkedIn. So do you like to see that? Do you like to see courses on a resume? I love it. I think that it's I have different people. Well, but here's the thing it's for it's for people like you just said.

It's people that have a certain level experience and they want to move into something else. And I think I think it's really easy to say, oh, I want to do more cloud work or I want to do more DevOps work or I want to do more of this, right? But show me what you've done to learn it. Because one of One of the things I've learned is no one's gonna hand anyone a new skill, right? Everyone is gonna have to go on their own and learn these things. And these things are hard. It's not an easy skill to learn. So what have you done to move yourself in that direction?

And that's what I look at. Put courses on there, put random classes you've taken. If that's your goal, put it on there. I'd love to see it. Yeah, I love that. So we get to some questions. It's people I want to give some shots. again, Peloton like, it's also, it's funny you mentioned that Jose, because literally I emulate this a whole other conversation for no day. I emulate a lot of my show be off Peloton rides. I do not have a Peloton. That is a concept bike. And I used a Peloton app. So like the concept rowers is the bike version. It's like only 70 pounds.

I can move it around the house and move it outside. But I literally emulate this show based off a lot of things off Peloton. So it's hilarious. It's hilarious that you brought that up. Yolanda, good morning. Alicia going, let's get ready for some awkward drama. No, no awkward drama, it's gonna be a good day, I love it. Good morning from New York City. I love it, Chris goes, being able to speak to everything I do, and I know more than anything I stress with people I train and mentor, absolutely I love it, I love it. All right, so Alicia's a director of engineering here in Nashville, for those of you who do not know, he is a regular on the show.

Alicia, you need to go ahead and use my calendar book of time because I'm officially booked. Guidance Council is officially booked through the end of the year. So again, thank you all all for watching, but Alicia, you might as well, please go book some of Virginia. Find yourself a recruiter can be, it can be like applying for car insurance. You put yourself out there, get so many calls. How can the juniors out there find strong recruiters? Jose, I'm gonna let you get a crack at this first. That this is an awesome question because I think you're right. I tell everyone find a good recruiter, like find a handful of people or two recruiters that you trust that you know.

So how do we get there? I think a lot of it's gonna come down to the conversations you have. Like. It's a kiss and a lot of frogs, man. Yeah, I mean, you talk to so many people, I can imagine like, I wish I was as that, like, I wish more people responded to me, right? Like I wish I got a many language messages. Right? But I think some of the things that's important is when you get on a recruiter, when you get on a phone call with them, are they just talking to you about one job, trying to get you off the phone immediately and just saying, great, I'll talk to you that I'll figure it out or they're asking you, what do you want to do?

Does this line up to your expectations? Like even on the agency side, like I remember being like, hey, I have this job, right? This is what the job is. It's a little bit different than what you're doing. Do you even want that job? Like to me, a big part of it is being like a considerate recruiter and I think the good ones know that it's all about fit, right? It's like, it's got to be the right fit not just for the company and not just for the candidate. It just, it has to fit. So that's one of the things I would say is, are they just trying to get you off the phone?

Are they just trying to see if you fit for this one exact job? Or are they trying to be considerate of what you actually want? Yeah. And trying to be that that died for you. That's one of the biggest things I would say. Yeah, I think too, and I did record an episode. So if you wanna go check out in the podcast, Gottin's Councilor 2.0, because I did a, I did like a step-by-step. If you go to my YouTube, you can see where I like shared my screen. I walk through how to kind of screen out a recruiter. But I think like some, so some things I say is like the two and two role I made it up.

It's not like an actual thing, but typically most recruiters bounce every two years. And typically most recruiters are new in the industry. So you want to find somebody's been the industry for at least two years and it's been the same company for two years. And so with me, like that's the first thing. And I'd also look at it, it's hilarious because I just saw someone like this post. So I had an engineering a senior, it was a senior manager at GitHub, Wissam. I don't know how to pronounce it last time. But Wissam and I talked about tonality and messaging in today's world and how important it is to use like GIFs and emojis and exclamation marks and like smiley faces.

And because so much can be inferred through a text message or an email that you need to make sure your tone's there. It's the same thing with recruiters linked in's or recruiters messaging and how they communicate to you. It's all a vibe and I hate that because it's just totally intangible, but like that's one of the things you gotta look at. That's one of the things you gotta look at. And that's the human side, right? Like I think there's certain people understand that we are humans, right? And switching jobs and finding careers is one of the most stressful things that sound doesn't have. What I'm doing this week right now, but yes Yeah, they say those two things and and and the death of a relative the three most stressful things that happen in life So like let's respect it like the recruiter has to respect your job search and if they don't that's a good step I love that tune to rule because you're right We all know the recruiters that are somewhere for a year six months nine months a year two years like we know those guys exist I'm not saying that they're not Good recruiters because there's many situations, but it's still to your point the majority I would agree with you I love that so another question from John again.

Thank you all for all the questions This is more fun when you ask questions But again, I was saying I could talk in gamecock athletics for the next nine hours if we need to When you're at the end of a contract period in a contract to perm what are the best ways to move forward? Looking forward next to roll. What's the recruiters view from this from those sides? thoughts I If someone took a contract to me, it's a contract, right? It's like yeah, I don't think it's a What are the best ways to look forward and look for new role? He said how do I dress the contract wrong LinkedIn and resume?

So I I like There there's some resumes I see like the top bullet point under your company has like what it was Was it a direct hire? Was it a contract hire? Was it a contract and then why and it's just a quick blurb right? contract role came to an end because of funding. I like that. I don't know if you had thoughts. Yeah, I like the story. I think that's a good point. It's like was hired to complete a modernization project in six months got a completed period. Just a story there to tell me why. I actually really like you just putting contract on the job title.

Yeah, like a dash contract or parentheses or something. Yeah, put that on there. It lets me know that you're on a contract. I mean, once again, and we're humans and I think it makes sense that contracts end, right? Like unfortunately contracts end and it's out of a lot of ours control. So to me, I think there's nothing wrong with putting that and then just put me a quick story. Okay. Here's what happened. Here's what I was hired to do and I did it. I love that. Um, also too, I want to break this down a little bit more, John. If you're, if you're, um, if you're on a contract, act running contract to higher position, right?

I don't want to glance over this, right? Cause he's saying you're on the contract period of a contract to perm, which means for us, a contract to hire. Here's what I would do. If it's a six month contract to hire, about three months in, everybody knows. Everybody knows. Everybody knows. And so my thing is, I think we need to, you need to start really digging into the recruiter. If you're working through a recruiter, go through the recruiter, right? So I want to talk about these lines of communication. If you're working with Jose on all those, like communicate with him, if you're on a contract to hire with an agency recruiter like me, communicate with me, but I think you need to be, start having those conversations early and often.

Thoughts on that? Absolutely. I think it comes down to communication because you'll start, the conversation, you don't just get flipped to permanent a day. It doesn't happen. It takes a while, unfortunately, right? with a lot of these larger companies especially. So you need to be pinging your recruiter and just like, hey, where are we going? Have you had conversations with your leader? Like, I would tell them, hey, ask your boss, but also we're gonna be behind the scenes asking, hey, when are we converting this person? And I think that goes back to having a good recruiter though, because some recruiting companies are gonna be like, you know what, let's turn this six month contract into a 12 month contract.

How did you do that? It happens, it happens. And that's sometimes out of our control, but go ahead, sorry. No, no, but I think that's where the recruiter trust does come in because you're right. It does happen. Like there's no question about it. Like the managers are gonna be the one that really decide when you go permanent. We can influence it one way or the other in certain times. So it's just, are we advocating for you? And then by the way, I see on here the context is, if we don't wanna accept the perm offer, what do you do? And I think that just to kind of speak to that one.

I was saying you're jumping ahead. I'm sorry. I love it. I love it. I love it. Go ahead. It was John. So I just saw it close together. But I was going to say about that one is I'm a full believer that a contract to hire is a try on both ends. Like, yeah. Oh, you're listening. Contract to hire is not for everybody. It's not. But I think it solves a lot of problems that hiring managers and companies have and interviewers have. Yeah. So, great. Listen, we're gonna hit a vein here. You go over contract hire, because I'm sick and tired of talking about contract hire, and I know these people are sick and tired.

Talk about the pros and cons. Obviously we know the cons. Talk about the pros that you like with contract hire, especially now that you've seen both sides of it. But let's answer John's questions first, real fast. So real quick about not accepting a permafra once again, I think it just comes down to having open communication. Like we talked about, talk to your recruiter. And if it, you know, unfortunately that recruiter is probably not going to try to place you at a different client So that's something to keep in mind that if you know Unfortunately the odds of a recruiter being like, okay, you don't want to go perm let me place you somewhere else Keep that in mind I don't think they can do like most companies are like not allowed to do it if it is if it is not a fit and you are on a contract we can Mm-hmm, but if you if you go direct in 30 days later, we cannot.

Yeah. Which happens a lot. But I definitely think that, you know, that's a little bit of a touchy subject, right? If you don't want to go perm, but understand that it's your career, like if it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. Don't feel like you have to go perm in it. Don't feel like if it's not like, it's a better move to say, hey, just kidding. You know, I don't think this is the right fit for me versus taking the permanent job and leaving a month later. So that's what I would say. Just have that open communications important. All right, so let's break down contract to hire, right?

So I think again, this isn't, I'm coming into this conversation this part as it's not the end all be all, but talk about, Jose, talk about the pros and cons that you've seen in your career. Contract to hire, I think the first important piece is is it a real contract to hire. I think we're contract to hire gets a really bad rep as some newer reporters, say, oh, this is a six month contract to hire when the manager that they're dealing with is saying, well, it's a contract. Could get extended. We could go from it. Have you ever used the term right to hire? Cause we all have it.

You haven't. I've never heard that. Yeah. So, so we use contract to hire and right to hire, which actually say that out loud. Just sounds ridiculous. So, so right to hire is, Hey, listen, they ideally want this position to go full time, but there's a lot of hoops they have to jump through. It's not approved yet. They're going to have to go get approval. It's probably going to delay. You know, they want to make sure you like it too. It's a little bit more loosey-goosey. And I actually tell my candidates that I go, hey, listen, like this is the right to hire. Here's what that is.

Contract to hire is like, hey, like literally we have there's one software engineering team in Nashville that we've staffed up their entire IT organization contract to hire. And it's like six months to a T contract to hire. Yeah, and that's the important part, right? I think those are the questions you ask, because a good contract to hire, that is truly a contract to hire, I think is a great fit for candidates and for employers, because it does give you that chance to prove yourself there is budget, and unfortunately or fortunately, like that's the contract that they might have with the vendor. Like the one that's helping you out and the recruiter is helping you out, like this is the easiest way for you to get onboarded.

Like do you want a job in two weeks or do you want to potentially take a longer process to maybe go permanent. I mean, I've seen companies take three months to onboard people. It's certain companies are a disaster right now. This is the disaster. It is bad. And the manager may not have had account yet to go permanent, but they have had to go contract. There is that. And I think it just comes down to what's the intention of the role. I think, once again, I think it comes down to that recruiter in conversation and the respect, not respect. But the trust that you have in the recruiter, which is, all right, let's talk about this.

Yeah. I love that, right to hire a contract to hire because that does put a difference into can you possibly go perm or is it, oh no, like we're talking to you about projects that they're gonna get done in a year. Yeah. Okay, cool. We know what the goal is here. And that's where too, I saw a shameless self-plug, my website, tailedeson.com, the free guides. I have 10 questions to stump a recruiter for a reason because not many individuals ask, so two things. Not many individuals ask intentional questions about a contract to hire, which gets you in trouble, right? That's why I say, hey, how many people have you placed with this manager contract to hire?

You know, is this position budgetarily approved to go full time after six months, right? Things you have to ask a recruiter to educate yourself on contract hire, but I'll also tell you this, what I was gonna say, from a contract to hire perspective, I just totally lost my train of thought. It was gonna be good too. You really need to, what? Oh, why did I forget it? Oh, no, I just totally lost. I just totally lost my train. I thought that doesn't happen that often. It's only good. I'll put a lot of contract to hire while I can. No, what I'll say is you bring up great points.

Like all these things that you're saying, like if I can like like something, like I feel like I'm on with teams chat and I can like put like and clap some stuff, I would be just like nonstop. Yeah. Doing that right now. Cause you're right. I think the great question is, yeah, how many times have you done this? Like have you worked with this client before and how many have gone contract to hire? Oh, oh, oh, I got it. I got it. Thank you. No, you're worth. So here's what I mean by that. Too many times people jump into contract to hire and they think, I'm just going to take my salary and divide by two.

And that's my hourly right. Wrong. Wrong. What you need to do. I love this. Let it slide and come back naturally. I love it. What you need to do is you need to take into account your PTO, you take into account your HSA or whatever contributions, 401k match, all that. And you have to come up with a growth, like a total lump sum and then divide it by 2,080 hours. That's how many hours a typical human being works. That's 40 hours a week. That is how you come up with this math. What happens typically, if you're like, Taylor, that sounds like a lot. Can you just tell me a number?

divide your salary by two and then add $15 an hour. 10 to 15, 15's top end. 10 is kind of covering. That's what I've seen in terms of like two or three weeks PTO, HSA, 401K matches around $10 to $15 an hour on top of whatever your salary is divided by two. And I've never heard of that math, that's good stuff. I mean, I think that that aligns up in a lot of different ways. I think to that point. Or your worth. Yeah, well, and also like not just know your worth, but understand that during the holiday season, your paychecks are gonna be lower. So be prepared for that.

Make sure that to your point of knowing your worth, that you're making up for it. In the other kind of months of the year. Cause if you're not making up for it and knowing your worth for every hour you work, come December, this paychecks, you're not prepared for it because you didn't provide the right rate up front. And now you're in a place like, oh snap, It's not where I want to be. So absolutely. I love that. I love your equations, man. I love Oz's. I love it. So all right. So as you wrap up here, because again, I try to keep this 30 minutes.

But Jose, what are some last parting words of wisdom? I always give guests the last little chance to talk about whatever they want to talk about, whether it's the hiring major side, whether it's the job seeker side, maybe some things you're seeing pitfalls right now. What are just some last encouraging words you have for some individuals right now. I would say that thank you first of all for taking our messages and talking to us. Yeah. I always like to say that. Please stop. Please continue. No, but I think the knowing your worth is great. I think it's be confident in yourself. I think I always tell people like your experience is good enough, I promise.

Be confident. And when you have these conversations, continue to learn, continue to evolve. I think what I'm always get to be excited, talking to people is not what they've done, but what they want to do, like that excites me. So be confident who you are, be confident what you've done, I promise it's good enough. Ask for help and ask the right questions. Like please continue to ask questions and understand that, you know, it's your career. I know a lot of times you're like, oh, should I leave this job? Should I not? Or I don't know what I should do. It's like, you're gonna get pressure, unfortunately, when you're talking with the creators, you know, a lot of our paychecks are determined on you taking the jobs, right?

So understand that that's the stress of the recruiter, I guess, but understand it's your career and understand that you're making the best decision for you and your family and whoever else you're supporting. So keep that in mind in these decisions because you're gonna get pushed from every angle. So just be confident in your worth, be confident in who you are. And just know that you're doing this for you and your family and it's not based on the recruiter who's threatening to pull a job from you. Or like it's just, it's a crazy world right now. So just continue to be yourself and trust that you'll do just fine.

I love that. I love that. Well, y'all, thank you again for tuning in to guidance comes to 2.0 this morning with Jose. Jose, thanks again. Stay on real quick afterwards. We can chit chat a little bit more about South Carolina things. So as some housekeeping items, as always, feel free to text me, 615-235-5650. That number right there. For a texting community, I text you when I go live with guests, like Jose. and then also just a practical job tip or trick to apply to your career immediately. Also my website, TaylorDessie.com, go check that out, a bunch of free resources for hiring managers and job seekers like.

I do have some hiring music stuff on there. So again, thank you all for tuning in this morning. Guys comes to 2.0, Jose, thank you. Thanks for having me, man. I'm excited. This was pumped, it was great. Your rock star and a yoga connect with Jose. He's a great follow and I'll see you all tomorrow morning. not 30 a.m. Central. I have a VP of engineering on the show. He is in Nashville, but he is leading development teams out of Phoenix. So that's gonna be good one. Ben Henderson is his name. I've known him for a very long time. One of the good ones. So y'all tune in 9 30 a.m.

Central tomorrow morning. And we'll see y'all. Thanks y'all. Have a good one. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the app store. I want this to be discoverable to others. And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it.

So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, Taylor at Vaco.com or at T. Destin on all social media handles and I hope you have a fantastic day.