w/barret blake, practice area manager

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to guidance counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had guidance counselors in middle school. We had guidance counselors in high school, but we didn't really have guidance counselors in college and now as professionals. We don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vacovac.com is how to get and touch me old fashioned email social media at tdsintdesse. And then finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. The bear give the people what they want. Who are you what you do and we will dive right into hiring. Sure. My name is Barrett Blake. I am a developer manager. I manage a team of developers in the Microsoft Dynamics space work in with clients really all over the place.

It's a number of different clients. I've been about 20 years in the industry. And as I mentioned to Taylor earlier, I'm a career changer. I spent first 10 years of my adult life working factory jobs, retail jobs, that kind of thing. And decided it was time to go back and finish my schooling and did that and ended up in development. Love it. So let's talk about that. Well, it's time of that first because I just think I mean, I talked to so many individual and daily basis. Like I'm too late, right? Or like I'm too behind. I guess you can see it's the same thing.

Or I'm too old to get started. What's the advice that you would want to impart on these individuals that think they've missed their chance? Yeah, it's never too late. I was 32 years old. I had a family. I was working full time and didn't have a whole lot of schooling out of the way. And I just decided it was time to do it. And so I went back and was working full time. I had a family full time. It was a full time. And managed to do it all and get through it in about two and a half, three years, finished up my degree and ended up in the career.

That's awesome. And I'm curious how did you get in to tech? Kind of your first tech job. I actually got introduced to an internship with the state of Ohio with a guy who was in one of my classes my sophomore year. My senior year I was able to spend working probably about 20 to 30 hours a week as an intern from the state of Ohio Department of Education. By the time I was about a month and a half away from graduation, I already had my first job as a whole. And some so so what? Just some random connection your sophomore year. Yeah, I mean, you're in these classes with these guys and you got to communicate with them.

You got to talk to these people and whether you're working on group projects or not because you never know who might have a lead for you. And you can't just sit back and wait for things to be handed to you because it won't happen. They won't. And I would say too, I mean, so the reason I'm so loud about networking and again, we've had some people come in chime in. Chris, what's going on? Yolanda, good morning. Chris were coming in and go say you're never too late. Absolutely. Chris, good morning, good morning. Here's my thing. I believe it or not. The reason I'm so loud about networking like this is because I didn't do any of that.

Yeah, I'm terrible at all networking stuff. But I force myself to do what you need to. Well, hey, listen, you can check it off your list for today because you are doing it right now and you're doing it and you're fantastic. But my thing is, is like, I went to a business school and I did not network or make friends with people in my business school. Like in my perspective, if you're going to college, I'm interested here at thoughts on this, if you're going to college, I would be networking your butt off because you don't know that next person, especially depending on what college you go to, especially if you're out west and kind of Silicon Valley and that, you don't know who could be a huge tech investor.

You don't know who could be the next CEO of a unicorn startup. Use never know. Exactly. Yeah. So you got to network. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, the best job I had is that I've all come from people that I know that are friends or coworkers in other places that I've worked with before. And that's I've found almost every job is do the people I know or people that I've worked with previously. I love it. I love it. See? People who are watching. Again. You throw in your resume at 900 and we can go into hiring now in barracks. I feel like we're going to go this way.

You, it was I'm telling you, if you go around throwing your resume all over the place at 900 openings, it's not going to happen. It's like Barrett just said all of his jobs are because of people that he already knew. So Barrett, let's dive into the hiring side, right? You got hot off air about hiring. You're like, I can, you know, all these stages, blah, blah, blah. So let's talk about that. What do you have to say about long interviews, like long drawn out interview processes? Go ahead. For me personally, I think that that's an indication of a really bad company culture. If it takes them more than an hour and a half, two hours worth of interviews to figure out whether or not you're a fit for their company, that's not a place you want to work.

I was mentioning the tweet. I also talked about getting a job after going through five interviews that lasted pretty much an entire day, you know, worth of time. And that's just not where you want to be because that's shown that they don't really know what they're doing to them. That clip, that's it. We can go ahead and end it right there. Really, that's the only clip I needed from Barrett and then we're good to go. So Barrett, I mean, so talk. So as, as you've grown in your career, what's some things that have worked for you for your team? How do you evaluate if you're open to sharing some secret sauce, please do?

But what, what's some things that really work for you to evaluate talent right now? I like to, when I'm doing interviews, I like to talk about things that aren't specifically tech related perhaps. Most people that you talk to, even if they don't know all the skills that you're looking for right then, if they've got at least some match. If you can get a feel if they have a willingness and ability to learn the things that they don't know. Then what's more important to me is how they fit with the rest of the team, how they interact with you, how they communicate, how they're able to present themselves.

And we talked to somebody recently who just, I didn't get any feel that he actually wanted to be in that interview. Really didn't last, you know, we only talked for about a half an hour before we kind of of parted ways, but it was very clear that, you know, he was doing it because of some friends that were in the tech and he was kind of looking to move in the tech and just didn't see any drive to be able to learn what he didn't know. People like that where you can tell and that's actually what I'm doing interviews. It's far more important to me how they fit than perhaps the skill set because skills can be learned.

But why? But Barrett. Why are these 12 interview steps all technical and they don't care about the person? Yeah, well, because they don't care about the person. So, you know, if they don't care about you during the interview, they're not going to care about you after they hire you. Barrett's Barrett's money best friend. That was so good. That was so good. So, so let me ask you guys, how do you structure your interview for your team? Generally, it'll be either me or my boss will be kind of representing the management side of things. Sometimes both of us. Let me try to include one or two of our tech people to kind of be better at validation of the skill sets.

And we kind of split at the time. Maybe we'll hit some of the non technical questions and I'll kind of turn it over to my tech person to kind of grill into some of the tech stuff to make sure they at least have part of the skill set that we're looking for if not the entire thing and see whether they're going to be a fit for the tier of person that we're looking for. So that way we kind of get a spread and you can do that in an hour, hour and a half, two hours at the most and be able to know whether that person's going to work out.

And how are you pivoted and we haven't talked about this, but I do. I am curious. Have you always been remote your team or has that flipped with COVID? For my current team, most of us have generally been remote. I actually had an office until December. I actually don't even have an office anymore so that they kind of did away with it when they moved back in building. But even then when I had a physical office that was mine, so to speak, I still work from home three or four days a week. I was only in there one day a week. Now pretty much entirely remote.

I've got developers all over the world. I've got a developer from Poland. I've got an over in India right now. Bang. I've had developers in the Far East before. Yeah. So it's really a much wider base now. What more spread out than it used to be? Is it easier or harder to manage that way? There are things that are harder about it not being able to be face to face and interact with people a lot. But with all the tools sets that we have nowadays with the Zoom and Teams and whatever it is, it's really not as big a deal as it used to be.

I mean, there's some of the camaraderie that you missed. Yeah. But it's not, I don't think all that much harder to be a manager in that position. What's your secret sauce, because I mean, one of the reasons why I created and want to do this live show is so I can steal some some plays of the playbook of hiring managers. What's what's maybe one thing that like you're like, I'm really good at this with my team. And that you're willing to share of course. Oh, wow. I think the best thing that I do for them is being able to rely on them to do their jobs.

I mean, I don't, I don't micromanage. I don't pick on what they're doing. I say, here's your task. If you need anything, let me know. And I just, you know, aside from that, you know, like the daily stand up or whatever it is that we do is really all the oversight that I need to provide for them. I trust them to do their jobs and they don't ever let me down. Where does the lack of like not micromanaging come from? Because I feel like we all have had managers. So where they micromanage us to the point where like, we're never going to do this. Where, where's where's your kind of where does that come from?

Yeah, I think that's exactly where my drive to not be that way has come from is because I've had micromanagers in the past who were every 10 minutes, every 15 minutes were on me like what are you doing now? What are you doing now? What are you doing now? I hated that. I despise that work in those kinds of environments and those are the jobs that I left the fastest. So I always told myself that if I ever gotten to that kind of leadership position that I would never be who I was and I'm not perfect. You know, sometimes I will get on somebody but I try not to be that way.

What, what would you say for for leaders managers right now or I tell you what? No, we'll quick. What would you say that you're seen right now in the community or within your organization or just maybe your friends within other IT organizations where leaders are really missing out right now? I think the biggest thing is you see in certain companies this drive to get back into the office because they think COVID's over or you know, it's not as bear crisis. And you can tell that that's the kind of culture where they aren't trusting you to work on your own from your own location. Those are the kinds of cultures where they do the micromanagement.

They want to be hands on and see all the time and be able to look over your shoulder whenever they feel like it. And I think not adjusting the cultures and companies to allow for people to be able to work remote, work from their homes, work from wherever they're comfortable. That's that's where they're going to miss out on the talent because the talent's going to go elsewhere and they'll wonder why they don't have anybody who is there for them. Well, and I tweet about a lot but I do want to hear from you as well. and other people, managers. So because I feel like a broken record, rather like tailor like you tweet all the time and you post all the time and it's the same thing.

But I'm telling you, I'm just trying to scream it to the mountaintops because other people are doing it. So we have a guest here, Barrett, are you still seeing companies trying to pull people on site right now? Oh yeah. I mean, we are a consulting firm and we have a lot of different clients, a lot of different areas and not so much on my team but on other teams in the company, you know, I'm hearing about these companies where they want these contractors to be on site, to be present, to be there. And there are a lot of them that kind of jumped to get back into that kind of environment as soon as they thought, you know, that things were letting up with COVID that they wanted those people back on site that they wanted them to be there and that that's not really the best place.

And I feel like to me, a little rant on my part, I feel like the companies that are wanting people on site are the companies that do not have a solid foundation of leadership and the only way to manage and to lead is to control. And that's kind of my thought where you don't have the leaders in place that are good enough to manage remotely. Yeah, it's definitely a culture where there's not trust. Yeah. Either trust in leadership or trust in the people working for all. Yeah. What do you think companies in the next five, ten years need to be aware of or be mindful of and not just to on site, off site, maybe some other things?

I think the biggest thing is because it's becoming a much more level playing field, that much more spread out playing field, so to speak, they need to be open to hiring people from everywhere. Yeah. You need to understand that some of your people are going to be here locally or some of them are going to be a thousand miles away or 10,000 miles away, wherever it might be. Yeah. That they need to be open and willing to do that because you're just not going to find the talent locally to fill the seats in your office building. Right. Yeah. So true. So talk to me. So let's talk about the job seeker side of things, right?

Because you do interview, right? And I want to touch on this as we wrap up here this morning. And for those of you who have questions, who are watching, there's been a lot of comments as we've been talking. If you have questions, please ask Barrett now is the time where you have a hiring manager at your fingertips. So feel for your ask questions. But Barrett, let me ask you this. As a job seeker right now. There are some maybe key things that they can do to stand out. Especially, let's just say they're interviewing for you and what you would like to look for. The biggest thing is communication skills.

Honestly, you know, like a parking lot skill, you know, the technical skills you can learn. All right. But being able to present yourself in a manner which, you know, conveys that, hey, yeah, I do know what I'm talking about. I am willing to learn what I don't know. And I am a good fit for your culture, for your company, for your team. A lot of people, you know, just honestly, in interviews are really bad at that. You know, I don't know if it's just back in your case or if there's just bad in interviews. I'm myself, I'm terrible in interviews. I'm terrible when I go to be an UE.

And I know that I don't communicate myself very well in a lot of places like that. But as a hiring manager, when I'm doing the conducting interviews, that's the biggest negative for me is somebody who cannot communicate and express themselves in a logical or clear manner. Is there, you're on my thoughts on why I think we as a society are so bad at that. Is it going to think we are told to not talk about ourselves or we were raised to not talk about ourselves? And I think that kind of hurts in the interview process because I think people are, you know, I mean, really, like, if you really do it well in the interview process, you have to brag on yourself.

And that feels weird for a lot of people. Like, I'm Taipei, so I'm great at it. But like for people like, you know, my wife, for example, like, she hates it. She hates bragging. And I feel like when you get an interview and bear at your estimate, Taylor, what's the biggest accomplishment that you've done? Like, you got a brag. If you don't brag well enough, you may not, you may undersell yourself. So I didn't know if you had any thoughts on that. No, yeah. It makes sense. One of my favorite questions, one of the questions I almost ask in every interview is, what is it the motivates you to be a developer?

And I get all kinds of answers of, you know, well, I just kind of like it or, like, the kind of code. It's like, you don't sound like you enjoy it. You don't sound like you're doing it. And I'm not looking for somebody who's ultra passionate who, you know, programming is their only life. You know, I want you to have a life outside of work. I want you to have other hobbies, other interests and development. Because, you know, it's a better, more well-rounded person, but you've got to be able to express that this is what I like to do for my job. Right. Enjoy doing it.

Whether or not I do it in my personal time, I don't care. But I need to be able to understand that when you're here, whether it's, you know, a day to five or whatever it is you're working. But that's what you're enjoying doing that you're there because you want to be there. I love it. And a lot of people just can't express that kind of thing. What? So, let's talk about resumes real quick. Resumes kind of just the basic stuff. What do you like to see? In a resume, do you like a cover letter? Do you like what? What are your notes? I never read a cover letter.

If I get a paper resume, I just rip the cover letter off and throw it away. I don't ever look at it. I don't care about your life story. You know, when I get in all these resumes for a job that I'm looking to hire for, if I'm getting 50, 100, 200 resumes, I've only got five minutes, maybe 60 seconds to look at each resume. And I need to be able to see, I need to be able to see the glance, you know, what's your skill set, what's your experience, what have you done that's relevant to the job that you're looking for? If I can't tell that in 2030, even 60 seconds, you know, I'll set it aside and not look at it again.

Do you like color full resumes, Baron? No. No. If you're fancy artistic, you know, if I was hiring for a UX position or something like that, UX UI, fine, I want to see a fancy resume. I want to see that your design skills are great. See it. I say no. If it's time for your answers for us or dribbles for us, just keep your heads up very simple. No. I don't hire for those positions. If I was to hire for that, you know, I'm always hiring for technical positions. Yeah. I want to see your technical skills. I want to see what's relevant to what I'm hiring for.

Is there any, and we're a little tactical here on the resume. And if anybody has any questions, please throw them up. I see some comments coming to you that we'll just kind of head on here in a second. Is there anything in a resume you like to see specifically like bullet point versus paragraph, bolded technical skills? I don't know. Is there anything that you like to see specifically? I generally would like to see it at the very top like a really short bullet point list of skills. You know, with your kind of your experience level on each, no more than like your top five or six, maybe 10 skills.

And then for each of the jobs, no more than a paragraph describing what you did. You know, if you're taking five, six, 10 paragraphs to outline your job, I'm not going to read that. Yep. Do you have a resume length that you prefer? I prefer a resume single page. Really? If it all fits on the front of the first page, that's perfect for me. I generally don't ever look at what's beyond the first page. There you go. I love it. You heard it here. All right. Let's see here. So a few comments just coming up. So going back to what we were talking about remote versus on site, Chris comes in here.

I don't want to go back to office full time, maybe one or two days a week. Yeah. I think I will like being in office one day, two days a week. But I also think too, you know, it is what it is. It is what is bear. Do you have a preference one or two days yourself? I mean, I'm full time at home now. Yeah. Because even when I had an office, I was on a there one or two days a week. Yeah. I enjoy what I'm doing right now. So yeah. I'm not looking to go back into a physical location anytime soon. You heard that, man.

Heard that. I'm looking for a new position. Chris goes, I'm looking for a new position in part because I will have to go back to the office in January. Yeah. I mean, listen. A lot of people doing that right now. Oh my gosh. I think 2022 Q1 is going to be a, I'm not going to curse too early to curse. It is going to be a daggum feeding frenzy. Because I think there's a lot of offices out there that are getting a little confident and wanting people back on. And I think there's going to be a whole other flood of town. So hiring man, just watch if you're watching this, be careful.

Be careful. It's all I'm going to say. because I will find your people and I will take them. Julie comes in here and goes, I can market everything with the exception of myself. I agree it's hard to brag on myself. Been taught to always just to do my job. Yes. It's incredibly difficult. I would say if I were you to start bragging, I'm giving you permission. Hey, you know what? Hey, bear, you know a great exercise for people right now through the holidays that are watching this. You know the great exercises. You're a family with what you've done professionally. If your aunt Linda asks you over pumpkin pie, what you've been doing, use that time to brag about yourself and practice for an interview.

I give people permission. They won't understand it, but that's okay. It doesn't matter. My mom still thinks I code it. Yeah, Kio comes in here. Yeah, I was raised that boast in yourself was sinful. It's a hard habit to break. Absolutely. I mean, I get it. I get it. Chris comes in on that and goes, they give you a very difficult break out of that mindset. Exactly. Practice with your aunt Linda. I'm telling you a Scott, but what about my sweetheart? Gee, not put headshots in your resume. I will come and find you and burn your resume. If I want you to head shallow, go look to your LinkedIn page.

Exactly. Exactly. Kio, do you look at a candidate's personal website? Judging, bear, do you? Based off what you said, I think no, but I could do it. Generally not for what I'm hired for right now. Because like I said, I'm working with Microsoft Dynamics primarily, which is all enterprise software. So personal website really doesn't tell me anything about that. But my last job when I was doing development for a smaller company and leading a team there. And we were doing a lot of web-based development. Yeah, when candidates would pass me their website, I would go look at it just to see if the technical skills have designed skills kind of match with what I was looking for.

I love it. I love it. Let's see here. What else? Um, you get a lot on the go. So I'm in the same boat. It's too hard for me to brag on myself. Chris goes creative brag book. Actually, I really like this. I'm really big on journaling. I talk about if you're in an interview to, after you get done with the interview to a journal, what you missed, what you did well. I also think too, if you're interviewing, so let's say I was interviewing for Barrett's team. And Barrett was looking for like, hey, I need somebody who's implemented Dynamics on like an enterprise scale. What I would do is I would sit down and be like, all right, what, like, I'd be like, all right, well, I've done this.

This has been 10,000 users. This is how I did it. This is how long it took. And this, so like, so then when I'm in the interview and Barrett asked me that question, possibly I have it in front of me ready to go. So Chris, I like that. Um, cool. That's great. Awesome. Well, hey, y'all, that was it. That was great. Barrett, I appreciate it, man. Yeah, no problem. Thank you. Um, y'all again, hopefully having a wonderful holiday this week, thanksgiving. Um, yeah, all the turkey. I don't know what he could do. Yeah, just have fun. Enjoy it. We'll be back. Full steam Monday with John's County 2.0 Barrett.

If people want to connect with you, we're the best place for that. Um, yeah, I've got LinkedIn profile. I've got Twitter is at their Blake. You know, Twitter can see. I've got a personal blog as well, but you can get to that from the other side. I love it. So Barrett stay on it for a quick second. Um, but he all thank you again to the end this morning. We'll see on the. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful. Cause you know why there's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finish an entire episode.

So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the app store. I want this to be discoverable to others and the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please like right now, unless you're driving it, then don't do it. So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, Taylor at Vaco.com or at T-Dasting on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.