w/jacob herrington, sr. software engineer

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco.com is how to get in touch with me old fashioned email social media at tdesint D E S S E Y N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. So Jacob, so when you and I originally messaged a few months ago, it was very obvious you were like in the midst of the job search. And I think I tweeted about a few weeks ago, I was like, hey, I want to talk with people who have been on the job search who have a story and you DM me, you're like, hey, listen, like, it was crazy.

We even were talking off air just a few minutes ago, you're like, hey, I kind of was like, just, you know, flying by a seat in my pants for the first half of it, then I had to get organized. Talk me through, with the audience too this morning, let's lay out your job search over the last few months and kind of where you started and how you finished it. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, obviously I ended up at RTSE, that was the offer I took and the company I went to and that was super intentional. I'm really excited to be there. I'm not just flattering my boss as one.

I'm like, yeah, this is the company I picked. And that's kind of what's cool about the market right now for developers is that I did pick where I went to work. And that's not always an option or a choice that you have. So that's really cool. But why would you say the developers in the past haven't been able to really pick? Well, so from my experience, I've only been doing this five, six, seven years, whatever. And that means that in the past, I've worked at companies that was the company I could get hired at. I was a self-taught software engineer, I went through a series of startups that some were better than others but not always the place I wanted to be and this was one of the first times not the first time but one of the first times I've had really a lot of control over which company I ended up at and that was cool.

That's awesome. And this was this was back in July was when the like the whole I spent essentially the whole month like just talking to people about jobs and I kind of intended to take more time off than that but it was just such a high volume that I had to sort of jump on the opportunities that were there and I I imagine that it's a little bit like, I know the years wrapping up, so maybe hiring slowing down, but I think the market may be even more volatile and wild than it was in July now. Yeah, so let me ask you this, Jacob. So when it comes, you said you took a month off, right?

Did you leave your last job without having a job lined up? Yeah, and so a month off is maybe the wrong way to put it because I spent that time doing a great job. But I actually have no plan. My thoughts. Yeah, but I was really tired and exhausted. So I probably should have taken more time off. But I just, I really looked out like finding a company that I went to and like was able to communicate all that too. And then their onboarding process has been really, really slick and a lot of a fresh air after working at to keep this organized startups. So yeah.

And I wanted to dig into this now. One thing you talked about was, you know, you started a person job search and you were doing it one way and then you realize you had to get really organized. Let's kind of get real tactical here for the people who may be on the job search now or really probably Q1. Because I'm getting a lot of DMs and a lot of emails right now. People going, hey, I'm starting to casually look, what are some really good tactical tips that you could give right now? So, I mean, one probably important component is like the onslaught of inquiries from recruiters and hiring managers happened shortly after I didn't like announce I don't even have that big of an audience so I didn't like really announce that I was looking for a job but I just tweeted like a bro blew up that's how I found you yeah and then and then people just started DMing me left and right and so I have my calendar pulled up here so I know that I'm not lying about anything but I from like the 29th of June to I think by the 30th of July I had I had I tripped it down to just one company that I was finishing up with, but I averaged four or five Zoom calls to talk about jobs a day.

A day? Every week day. I didn't do the weekends because I needed to rest. I needed to rest. It was a full-time job. And then talking to people initially, it was just everyone that was like, oh, that doesn't sound like a terrible company. Of course I'll have a 30-minute phone call with you and I did that for two weeks. And I can see there's a day here on the seventh, where I had eight calls. And so that would probably the day where I was like, okay, I have to start ranking companies and deciding how much I can invest. So there were some of these bang size companies and actual thing companies that I was talking to.

You know, one of them being Google, I'll just say that. So I got like halfway through that process and then just like, I don't have the time. Like this job can't possibly be worth enough to me. Like right now. How many rounds did you go through before you made that decision? A lot. I, and Google also like, I don't want to like, throw shade on Google, but like, yeah, call a lot of things that should be called rounds rounds. So like, I probably had like eight calls with people before I was in like a, uh, well, I guess some in between there were some, but there were probably eight calls that like weren't considered interviews.

Right. But they're still in it. I'm still talking to a retainer or whatever and like, they're asking me questions about. So it's still an interview. Okay. I had been, I was, I had met the hiring manager. So I was very far into the process. And like I just said, I'm not, this isn't for me. I don't have the energy of the time. And I'm struggling with this much of the interview process. Like just being enthusiastic, I probably won't do that great of a job here. So, but do you like, I had to make that call probably a dozen times at least with companies where I was like, yeah, I'm just not excited about the next interview.

So I probably don't need to work here. So, yeah, so what was your, and I don't know if you have anything to share, I would love to share if you have like a blank spreadsheet of maybe an outline or something. Like I'd love to share that with the community and we can link it back to you. But what are some things that you really like really dug into with these interviews? I mean, was it salary, was it mission, was it obviously remote? I mean, what were like some really key things for the people watching? Cause there's still people and we have a few more questions about that are coming into.

But where are some key things individuals should be mindful of? That's great. And I think it's really personal, right? So for me, I wasn't super interested in maximizing my salary. I make enough money. And I knew wherever I was going to go, I would make enough money, which is a great problem to have, a great situation to be in. So I didn't worry too much about that. And I turned down some higher offers to take the offer I did. I'm going to interrupt you real quick. Do you feel, listen, this isn't for everybody, right? So I don't want you all to come with pitchforks at me real quick, right?

Go get your bread, right? I've gotten a lot of people $50,000 salaries because the Nashville market was so into prices. I'm sure the the Fayetteville market as well. Does it feel a little freeing to not have to worry about salary so much on the job search? It's a wonderful privilege to be like, I have enough experience. I know what the quote unquote market value of this experience is right and I can say yeah if it's below X that I'm not interested because I know I could go you know where I live the Walmart headquarters is right down the road okay I forgot about that yeah and yeah and like they'll pay me that much right the basics so I'm not gonna entertain those offers and that's that is really helpful I didn't always have that I'm a self-taught dev so my first job was 100% 50,000 actually the first time I was working full-time it was less than 50,000 it was like really much an hour.

But then very quickly we've been doing about a $50,000 role and then moved up from there. And so now I'm gonna place where it's light years different. And I think that that's achievable. It's just something to remind that not everyone's in that space. But it's cool. Yeah, no, 100%. So then, so, and again, you're so right about, it's very personal role on what your objectives are, but what were some one or two other objectives that you were really looking for in the job search? Yeah, so big thing for me was I wanted a company, I've been an employee number five, like three times in a row.

I didn't want it again. I wanted to be employee number 150 or more. I wanted to go to a company that had really skilled managers, was a big part of it. People that their professional was management, they weren't just managing because we didn't have a manager. Love that. And I wanted to go somewhere, it was important to me that they had pay bans that were established and real. I had a very recent experience where I found out I was being paid a lot more than a woman of color who was a much better engineer than me and I did not want to repeat that situation because that person got hurt and like that sucked.

Really? But I found out like just sharing salaries with some co-workers that this person I mean I don't know what they were paid I just know that it really sucked. Sure. Sure. I didn't want to repeat that so I wanted to go somewhere where they were like transferring paybands and I knew that what I was getting paid was what other people in my level were being paid. And then did you ask that in the interview like how did that come about you're like you Hey guys, do you guys have set pay bans? I mean, is that, is you just straight up asked that? Yeah, yeah, I was asking that interview.

I would try, I don't want it to come across as virtue signaling, because I hope it's not that. But I did definitely try to ask, what have you done to make sure that that's not gonna happen? That explicitly, there's not gonna be a woman of color who has five more years of experience than I do, and it's better what they do than I do. And they're gonna end up being paid less than me. Some companies just gloss over that question. and one startup just started to reciting their diversity statistics to me. I was like, that's not what I asked. I asked, how are you gonna make sure I don't get overpaid and someone else could stay in the advantage of?

Cause I've been that person that was taking advantage of two more sucks. Sure, sure. Yeah, I hear it all the time, unfortunately. So what else, I mean, I mean, did you keep up with everything in Excel? And by the way, if you all have questions for Jacob, please ask them, we're gonna get to a few here in a second. But, Uh, do you use Excel notion? I know it was a tool called Hunter. I mean, like what, what did you use? I'm like not half that organized. So I use a whiteboard, but I didn't know that I needed it until, you know, a few weeks in.

And so I started with my wife, like just sitting down and saying, okay, you know, working at this company, I really like what they're building or working at this company, like their mission really, like I align with their mission or this company, like they're going to pay me a bunch. So like in ranking those things and deciding what's most important. So I basically ended up with like an A, a B, a C, and then let absolutely not call them. And like, I love that. Sort of how I started filtering them. And eventually as I was calling it, the A column got too big. I would go through and take the bottom three or whatever, going to be and the bottom three of B will go to C and like doing that continually.

There were companies that I was investing a lot of energy and like Google that I was in that C column and I was like, they're going to pay me a bunch. But like, I don't think I want to do that. Yeah. that was I mean it was by the end of it I had to start cutting those companies and I got down to five or six and that's where I made the actual decision on where to go. I love that. I'm going to get to a few kind of people chiming in here. Brian, good morning. Brittany, good morning. Darwin, LinkedIn user. Hello, Matt. Hello. Good morning from the ATL Michael.

My man. What's going on? What's up, Elliot from the Mississippi. I love it. So first off, I do want to go to this question. What's so great about the onboarding process with your current company? Because I'm fascinated about that too. One of my objectives on this show is to talk with hiring managers and how to hire better. And so I'm curious as a job seeker, what do you like so much about the onboarding process? Yeah, so Arcee has a, like I want to say it's like almost two full months that are just dedicated to moving you between teams and getting community to people. And they have this really long spreadsheet, not a spreadsheet, but checklist in GitHub that you go through.

And it's like, go read this document that someone wrote five years ago about why we did this. Go read this document about why we did this. And everything's really well documented. My experience at RCSI has been that a lot of really, really good, like world class engineers have moved through that company. I know. Some of them are definitely there currently, but there's also ones that have moved through RZ and done a lot of open source work or a lot of cool technical work and then moved on to larger companies that were on kind of in the bleeding edge of those spaces because that's what they were passionate about and those people left behind a lot of really good rationales for decisions and a lot of really good documentation.

And that's formalized into like a reading list of what you should know, like stepping into RZ's code base. So it's literally just two months of just reading documentation. A lot of it. I mean, there is definitely coding and like pairing them there because you move between teams. Sure. That space is very intentionally, you're not intended to be productive. You're intended to learn how to work here. And I've always been a proponent of the rule that an engineer is probably not worth what you're paying them for at least the first six months of their job. So you should just factor that into your price model of hiring.

But then I think that at RCSE that timeline is shorter because they just say, you know what, we're not going to get any serious value out of you for two months and we're planning on that. So that's six months turns into a minimum four months, but that's awesome And is there are you I mean is there specific mentors or leads that kind of take you under your wing for like a week or a month or Whatever Yeah, you're so you're assigned like a nonboarding buddy mentor And then you also have a hiring manager and a manager. That's like their only job is to manage employees and help like play succeed and play succeed and then You also as you move through the teams each team sort of has a tech lead and might be a person that you're able to ask questions with Or it's awesome.

Yeah, that's really cool I'm a lies but very well done and it doesn't feel heavy handed to me at all It felt like the perfect amount of guidance I love it and but and just just by chance did you ask did you ask there all about their onboarding process in the interview? I asked I tend to ask like what is the first a couple weeks look like in the first month or whatever, just to get an idea of how you have an onboarding process and how you thought about this. In this case, they sent me an article written by the former CTO of the company.

It went on to work with AWS, but he wrote an article called Your First, 60 Days in your first software engineering job, sort of in the juniors, but we used this as sort of a guide post for what we want from new hires. That's awesome. That's awesome. Let's see here coming. Yeah, I mean, Nathan comes in goes what an example even fan company is getting shut down in this market because the recruiting process was too long. I mean, listen, I I'm trying to pre system the mountaintop and I definitely tweeted probably too much. Listen, companies, you're not the only fish in the sea anymore. I mean, literally it is a thing, it is an industry problem.

If you can't figure out how to condense and get people out of the way, which personally, I go back to ego. I think there's a lot of ego in hiring and who should have the final say or who should have. I want to be a part of the interview because I feel entitled to stop that crap. I mean, I think it needs to be very clear. You need to have a hiring panel be very intentional because this is happening nonstop. Jacob, I didn't know if he had any more thoughts on that. Oh, yeah, absolutely. There are like, I mean, I'm pretty extreme, in my opinions about hiring, but like, adding another out-of-the-long interview does not show you like the depths of a person.

You're not gonna like, okay, well, we're gonna have one more interview with this hiring manager, one more interview with this person so they can figure out if it's safe to hire you. Because everyone's hedging their bet. They're trying to not hire a bat, make a bat hire. Sure. And I get that. Or is not going to tell you that. No. Don't just add two more interviews or one more interview. It's not enough time to tell you that answer that kind of question. So I definitely like dropped out of companies because I just didn't hear back. You know, or I just like it was, it had been a week and I was like, Hey, I had to follow up twice now.

Like I don't have time for this. Sorry. Or it had been even a handful of days. It was like, Hey, I got an offer. It's gonna they want they want me to know by Friday. Yeah, I'm gonna hire me or not like now I'm curious to because because Did you find this company through recruiter on your own so it was that tweet a guy named Barry who Yeah, I mean again the power of social media For them and finding a job and I've been preaching about this and literally Jacob right here I did not tee him up for this he found his current job through Twitter again.

It works Also heavily based on social media there you go there you go Let's see here LinkedIn user goes wow the fact that you acknowledge the pay discrepancies and use that information moving forward Is it encouraging did you address it at the place that you learned that info? Not really didn't have a lot of agency to address it there. Yeah, yeah, and that's why he left So, Mary, good morning. So I'm curious with this one, John. Can you elaborate on the steps you used to kick off your job search, right? So we talked about getting into it, doing the interviews. What, I guess, what goes, what went through your mind to really kickstart it?

Yeah, I mean, to your point, you, it's really hard to distinguish where did I kick off my job search? Because all of these connections come from people I've known for years. So I worked in open source a while back and like a lot of those companies were reaching out and then I've worked on my podcast and writing articles and a lot of people who have followed those pieces of content reached out. But I mean, I honestly just tweeted like, hey, I need a job at some point in the next four months. And then that happened to get me a lot of leads. And so filtering through those leads was a lot of my job search.

Additionally, there was a list of companies that I would love to work at. And I went ahead and applied to those before I reached out to people. But those are just like, I know somebody at this company, I have a referral, I know it's a great place to work. And I'll try that. But even some of those, larger companies, like by the time I was through my that month, it's like Amazon had talked to me twice and I had a referral. So it was like, I don't understand how this didn't move more quickly. I know. I'm sorry, but I already have another job. So let's talk about recruiters real quick.

There's so many topics, we have 11 minutes. I knew this would happen. Well, I'll have to get you back on. So recruiters, right? Let's touch on that real quick because elephant in the room is hello, I am one. So how did you deal with them? Maybe just a general tip that you have for job seekers on how to navigate work with us. Recruiters, I mean, just like developers, any other profession, there's a spectrum of like, sincerity, authenticity, and ability. So you'll meet recruiters that are terrible, and you'll meet recruiters that are great. Like it's just the same as anything else. People are people, they're good people, and terrible people.

But there's also like, I think recruiters have a high expectation of like how much they can ask if software engineers right now. And you can really gauge off of that. If someone starts off with like, let me send you a technical screen or let me send you, like, when are you available for an hour long call or a 45 minute screen? And it's like, well, I'm just talking to this recruiter. I'm not talking to a hiring manager. Like, I'm not someone who can make a decision. In a way, this is a waste of my time. Because even if I nail this, I could go into another call.

and someone could just veto that suggestion. Because recruiters don't always have as much agency as they should have. And that can be a good metric is like, okay, so if you started off asking for an hour of my time, your process is probably pretty long and I don't need to be able to invest that much time in that. Dude, I talk with people for seven minutes. Yeah. Like I ain't got time. These recruiters out there trying to do 30, 45 hour minute meetings, I'm like, bro, just ask, just get, just see what they want, just be nice. And then just like casually get to know each other through the process.

I feel like recruiters are too heavy on the front end and try to learn everything about the camera on the front and it's like, listen, like, that just takes too much. Like be cool. Ask some questions. Actually, I have learned that developers will like you more if you just get them off the phone faster. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that at least right now that that's the symptom of just everyone is asking developers for their free time, like open source, you know, content creation. Those are all like wild things right now for developers to be doing. And that takes time. And then I'm talking about the job and maybe somebody's mood lighting and then like if you're looking for a job that's right now You can't get a job as a software engineer without spending like six or seven hours with that company and like if those were billable hours for me That's a considerable lot of money.

So I don't I don't just want to throw away that time That's essentially work that I could I could make money or I could do something that I'm like it's fun instead Absolutely, and I'm gonna just self-brag here that if you go to my website website, tailedesin.com, which obviously is the bottom of this thing. I have 10 questions to stump a recruiter that I would save as a template because they're questions that I, we ask our hiring managers. And so send those 10 questions, save as a email signature, and send those to a recruiter every single time they contact you before having a call with them.

And I'm not saying they should answer all 10, but they should answer at least half. And so just FYI there. Real quick Gabrielle, what's going on? Thank you so much. Yeah, too much ego on hiring absolutely. Mary giving daps to Jacob. Hey, I want to talk about this real quick, Jacob. How to prepare for you start creating content for social media. This is a whole another and again, we have eight minutes. And so I think I would love to dive in more with this with Jacob. What is one question, why do you think it's important for developers or really anybody But I just say developers right now to put out content on the internet moving forward So for me, it's it's the credential right?

I I'm a self-taught engineer. I didn't go to even a bootcamp Which you know there are incredible caliber of engineers that come out of boot camp CS programs or self-taught It's that's not what determines. I've got someone is but in the eyes of a lot of hiring managers That is a really quick metric to say oh you didn't go to the coding boot camp I like or you didn't go to the school I like or you didn't go to anything So I don't trust you. If you go out and put your name on open source projects or content production You can kind of point to a stack of things and say well I know that stuff well enough to like have people not not protect like critiquing me and correcting me on the internet Which is what happens when you're wrong and you do this Sometimes sometimes people just like validate your wrong thinking but also And people are brutal on TikTok.

I'm just gonna throw it out there the content I put on TikTok people try to like argue with me about helping people find a job on TikTok shit's wild, but that's not the point of this conversation. So Jacob, keep going. The importance of content as a job seeker. It's, I mean, that's, that's, I think I want to say that the, the job market does look ridiculous regardless of who you are, but a big part of, and that's probably not true because like people have different experiences that can affect, you know, their, their ability to go out and find a job for themselves. But I think at the same time, like right now, any developers can be as marketable as they can be.

So you can sort of crank that up by just like being discoverable. Like that's sort of a job I took is one big one that found me on Twitter. It's being discoverable. We live now. Listen, conferences are going back. I'm submitting my talks to all my conferences for 20 conferences. Conferences are coming back. Meetups are coming back. But at the end of the day, we are mainly working from home. And we are mainly going to be in a fully remote environment moving forward. you have to become discoverable. I think I love that word, and I think that's what content creation does. So. For sure. Good job.

All right, Fred trail. Fred trail. Fred crumbs. Yeah, and it leads back to like, this is a person that has some level of authority and you'll do this thing. So if you're writing about a specific problem, like, yeah, but to answer the question of like the, how to prepare, I will say my podcast. I know you're in about 30 minutes. I emailed five people, 10 people that I really respected and said, hey, can I interview you on my podcast that I didn't mention doesn't exist. And then after four or five of them had agreed, oh look, I have a podcast now, like. That's it. It's not.

It's not a preparation. No, it's just my personality type. So probably bad. But if you overthink it, you over prepare, like you might never do it. Because it's uncomfortable. Exactly. Let's see here. Barrett, Barrett, what's going on? Barrett was a guest last week. So go check out our episode together. It was fantastic. But he goes, that exactly don't tie up my valuable time for an hour. So Jacob, as we wrap up here, the one question I wanted to get across and I'm already drawing a blank. So let's go to something else real quick. In a situation where I finally managed to go through four rounds of the tech company, Glassdoor says the role doesn't pay well.

How long after getting the job should I apply for my next role? So I'll just say blanket, I apply like 100 jobs. That's been a big exaggeration. But I I applied a bunch of jobs at once, and then it's, for me at least, I mean, if you get infatuated with a company, if you really wanna work somewhere, that can be a pretty debilitating problem in a job search, because you get just so hung up on that feedback, and your interview might have had a bad day. But yeah, I tried to just apply to a lot of places I find interesting, and then I tried to flip the script a little bit and say it's on the companies to convince me to work there, and we're in a market right now where you can do that.

You can always do that, but right now you can. And then, Mary coming in and goes, what is your podcast? Yeah, it's called devpath.fm. And I came up with a name in the same amount of time that I read the emails to. I love it. I had a great designer who made a cool logo and stuff. But yeah, I haven't worked on it in about a year, but it's interesting, I think. I would check it out, because I've enjoyed talking to Jacob, so I'm sure he has a great podcast. So Jacob, burnout. Let's talk about burnout. That's the last thing I wanna talk about. how two parts of the burnout one how can somebody approach the job search if they can't take a month off yeah and then two how do you deal with burnout as a developer and then we'll wrap there sure yeah so for part a part one yeah I I can't speak to a lot of that because like I I mean I don't have kids I have a high level of income like I can automate a lot of unfortunate or inconvenient parts of my life sure so recovering from burnout from me is probably easier than for a lot of people, I didn't have to take care of my kids on that month that I was off.

But I think that a big part of it can be like stepping away from whatever is burning you out and deciding if it's worth keeping in your life and maybe doing that by exposing yourself to this stuff that made you excited to do it the first place. So for me, I just went to RubyConf and I haven't been to an in-person Ruby based conference in two years, but doing that I was like, oh, This is why I enjoyed this, like connecting with these people, keeping in touch with them when I can't go to a physical conference. That's why I was doing this. And I want to keep doing that part of it.

And so figuring out what that looks like and how much I'm willing to invest, to have that be part of my life and my career was what maybe reignite some of the excitement and help me overcome that burnout. But I lived in that burnout for like a year. There may not be a way to fix that. I don't now. I do know that a lot of people say once you've burned out, it doesn't go away and it becomes easier to burn out again. And that might be true. I haven't gotten there yet. Yeah. I mean, I think space, I mean, you know, I do a ton of content creation.

I kind of went, I quadrupled down once COVID hit and and Jacob and I were chatting after or before before the show. And, you know, I didn't realize how burned out I was until I took the last two weeks off. I mean, I was very burned out. And so I would just tell people if you are feeling burned out, whether it is the job search. Hey, and there's nothing wrong with putting the job search on hold. I mean, listen, I mean, if you're at a place where you can still stay there and it's not brutally bad, maybe, maybe just take some time. I've had a bunch of developers pull their name out with me and just be and withdraw just because they're so burnt out.

So I didn't know if you had thoughts on that. Yeah, I mean, I'm basically did that at a couple companies. Yeah. Okay. I didn't have the energy. So I just said, if I'm not excited about this, then that's a good sign that it's not gonna help me with this problem. So, yeah. Last thing, we'll wrap it up. I always like to leave some, last little nugget, words of wisdom. Jacob, do you have any words of wisdom for job seekers right now? Man, I've given this, this is aimed more at like people who are entering the space, but don't get intimidated by like job postings or like what recruiters ask of you because those things, having been on the other side of the hiring table, like those things are all a wish list.

Nobody has everything on that job requirement. so I love that. And you think it sounds fun? You should just put yourself out there and let them say no. Like don't say no on their behalf. Let them say no. I love that. I love that. Well, y'all, thank you again for tuning in this morning to guys concert 2.0. That was it. I, I, I, I, Jake would like to call myself. Keep talking, Jake. We'll have you on again. But y'all go ahead and connect with Jacob Harrington on LinkedIn. Also, what's your Twitter handle again? It's Jake Harrington. Jake. Yeah. So go, go follow him. He has a great follow.

I enjoy following him on Twitter. Um, y'all again, check out my website, tail with us and dot com, um, for a bunch of free resources. If you're hiring manager, I got a bunch of candidates on there, all my jobs, a lot of love. So check that out. Um, but y'all have a great Monday tomorrow, Tuesday. Tomorrow. Tomorrow. Oh, tomorrow. I'm going to be live through my manager's bosses LinkedIn live, Kyle Allen. I had Kyle Allen on the show a while back Kyle and I are going to talk through his LinkedIn tomorrow But I will send out a link So y'all come check it out, but again Jacob.

Thanks, man. This was a great conversation and I appreciate you Alright brother. Take it easy. See y'all Hey, you did it you listen to an entire episode and I am very grateful because you know why there's a lot of podcasts out there There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finish an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others. And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it.

So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, Taylor at Vaco.com or at T.S. and on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.