startups and leveraging junior talent w/ haley zapolski

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco.com is how to get in touch with me old fashioned email social media at tdesint. D E S S E Y N. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. Hope you enjoy the episode. Haley, give the people what they want. Who are you? What do you do? We'll go from there. Good morning. I am so impressed by your energy this Thursday. What's up guys? I'm Haley Zapolski. Please feel free to call me ZAF, Z-A-P.

And I am the manager of employer engagement at Nashville Software School. So that means it's really my job to manage the relationships with employers. kind of in the name, but that means that I sort of helped them, you know, learn about NSS, connect with us, and figure out how to best work and hire our students, and then what else about me? And I'm originally from Iowa, I'm a Midwest gal, and I'm super passionate about startups as well, and run sort of a startup group in Nashville that's on the mission to build the startup community in town. I love it. I love it. So let's dive in.

about your specific role within Nashville Software School and just to kind of set the framework of what we're going to talk about. Okay. So I've only been in the role. I think it's been seven months now. So I'm still pretty fresh, although it was a very easy transitioning into it because I was already passionate about tech, about the companies moving into town. My job is really like, I kind of joke, I'm the resident in-house extrovert of Nashville Software School. We're predominantly introverts and people who have worked in the tech industry and now kind of switched, I mean we're still in the tech industry but we're on this different side as a non-profit school.

My job is talking to the companies every single day. So I would talk to probably at least seven to 12 companies a week who are interested. Let's say it's the first time learning about Nashville Software School. They want to learn more about us. They want to learn about our programs. want to learn about our students and they want to figure out, okay, how can we, you know, have a presence at the software school? How can we hire your students at scale? How can we get in touch with this entry-level talent? It's really my job to just be available to employers and help them with that process.

And then, I mean, really, our ultimate mission is to help people launch their careers in technology. So it all goes back to how can really help line our graduates up to get job offers. I love it, I love it. So, all right, so I want to give some people some shout outs. We got a lot of people this morning. Woo! Good job bringing people to the show. Michael, what's going on from Huntsville? Chris, Tatiana, goes zap. Good morning. I don't know everyone who's from Nashville Southward School is on here. I've seen a couple names so far. I'm stoked. What's going on y'all? It's so good to see you.

See everybody. All right, so let's dive into the first topic of What do you see for companies, at least in the last few months that you've been in this role, that are resistant to hiring junior devs, right? Is there a consistent theme at all? Is there like, hey, we don't have the train in place, we don't have the mentorship in place, like, what are you seeing right now? So I think when I first started the role, there was a lot of people who were like, what the heck are you going to go do? Like, I, I, when before I even started, that I reached out to a lot of my friends who I already had in the tech industry.

And they're like, yeah, like we know about National Software School, like it's cool, but we don't really want to hire entry, like bootcamp graduates, or we don't want to hire entry level developers. And I get it, you know, entry level developers can be, they require a lot more management. They require a lot more investment of just time and energy resources. But it's becoming like a necessity for companies to work with boot camps like us and I think other boot camps because the They're just not getting the talent that they need otherwise like the four-year Accident fusion is not producing talent year after year at the rate that like the industry is hiring for And it's to me like it's a huge it's to me.

It's a crisis. Obviously. I think that's probably a dramatic word but that's what I work in and it's a mission I'm passionate about is that like Training and skilling our workforce for 21st century jobs is crucial and we can't rely on like the four-year institution so now Where I'm really seeing all these companies who might have been a little bit more of naysayers be like, okay we Need to hire bootcamp graduates And we also recognize the value in hiring someone just with you know the aptitude and with the who is looking to make a career transition and it could really become like a top developer here some top talent but it's giving them that start that's really crucial.

I think companies who are doing that like in the long term it'll that strategy is going to pay off because they can just hire based on aptitude and not I'm solely based on, oh, do you have this degree? And did you do X, Y, or coming here? Yeah, I love that. So let me ask you guys, are so you're starting to see companies make this shift right now to start to hire junior devs? Like, is that a trend that you're seeing? Yeah, I mean, it's kind of funny because I talk to companies all the time that say, listen, we wanted to hire like four senior developers, but we could only get two.

And it's kind of funny because it's not, you know, it's not perfect math. Like there's no math of like four juniors equal one senior. Correct. Unfortunately, but when they can't get that, you know, mid to senior level talent that they're really looking for, they're like, okay, how did we create like a, like a structure or a program or a process where we can get in like a whole crew of these junior developers and spend a couple of years training them up and to where they really need to be. And again, it's an investment. I think a lot of people are still figuring out, like I get asked all the time, like, where you're like, how do you, how do you get juniors to like working for you and to like learn and to grow?

And I think that like figuring out that secret sauce is still super difficult. but the folks who figure it out, they're gonna succeed because your company's all about who is in the company. It's people, it's the people. You're coming about the people. Wanna give us more shout outs again. People still chiming in, which I love it. Brittany holding what's going on. Josh, it's good to see you buddy. Jordan. So many NSS, I love that. I love it. Yeah, what's going on, man? Barrett, obviously, good morning, sir. So I wanna ask you this, do you see a lot of companies not having training place right now for junior devs.

I mean, is that kind of, is that something you're seeing right now? So there's a lot of things I could say about this. Please, please, you have to figure it out. Twenty minutes. I think there's some companies who already have it, and I'm not going to name names today, but there's some companies who already have that structure in place. But guess what? It's still not perfect. They're all like treating it, adjusting it, learning, because is it's only been a small amount of time that anyone's been really running these boot camp, or these programs for boot camp grads or even people coming out of college. Right.

I'm saying a lot of companies currently putting them into place. Yep. And then in general, if you're looking to hire boot camp graduates, are students typically deeply valued like they want? they know like they've only been in curriculum for like six to 12 months most likely. They're aware that they don't even know what they don't know. Like they want to go and learn more and be developed. So they're more attracted to the companies that have the formal program built up because they're like, okay, this is a safe bet. They know where I'm at. They know they're gonna take me to a new place. I'm not gonna walk in the door on my first day and be like flailing because I don't know what in the world I'm working on and there's no support network that's gonna help teach me.

So, but I think it's still early. Like there's, I don't even know if I would cite at one particular company of like, they've got it figured out. Like there's some folks who have like a great structure and they're doing a good job, but I would say that it's so new that all of them are like, okay, how can we do this better? because you have to look at what's the retention of the bootcamp graduates, like how quickly are they being trained up? What's their worth, the satisfaction? It's kind of like a race. I like it. I think a lot of companies are racing to be like, all right, we have to figure this out.

So we can win. So they can win race for talent. Yeah, I mean, it's absolutely a race and it's funny to use that expression because I've been saying that. I mean, I've been saying, I mean, it is race. I mean, it literally is in terms of getting people trained up. I mean, in my opinion, if you're waiting to hire, just for like, hey, we can only hire five people in Q1. Like you should've been hiring for Q1, like the start of Q4, right? And the thing is, is that like, it takes time. It really, really takes time to build people up. So what are some other trends you're seeing right now with companies locally?

you know, if you want to time the startup thing we can, I just, I just want to pick your brain, right? Like what are you seeing? You and I kind of work. You and I have a very similar type of job, but you're very focused on the Nashville market. So are there any other trends you're seeing that maybe companies hiring managers who watch this now in the future can be aware of and or are there any secrets that junior developers should know that you want to impart on them in this moment? Okay, this is multi fold. So right, multi fold, exactly. So I actually used to work at a different company.

It was like a recruiting tech company. And we did a lot of research on, it was mostly Gen Z trends. Because I worked there like right when Gen Z was hitting the job market. And all these companies were like, holy smokes, Gen Z is way different. Like we don't even get it. And now you're seeing, I think that Gen Z trend is really entering sort of that hiring space. But also like the shift from COVID. I think it has a similar trend of people really want to go a lot of things. They want to have a lot of freedom and autonomy at work. They want to feel like they're a part of something.

That's such a really uniquely big deal nowadays that statistically the data says millennials and boomers didn't care about this much. They didn't need to feel like a warm and fuzzy family at work. Nowadays, I think there's just a huge trend of people just they don't want to feel like they're just a cog in a machine I suppose they want to feel like they're making an impact. So that's a big one I mean obviously the remote work is a huge topic right now and it's super interesting because probably I would say more employees want to work remotely than employers right want them to be remote and I I I saw this like opinion piece just yesterday.

That was fascinating about like how you think employers would be all about remote work because it saves them money. Sure. It's proven to be more efficient. It's huge office, all that stuff. But they're like, they don't want it. And this opinion piece theorized that a lot of the employers, like the leadership team, they want visibility. Like they want to see the employees working. they want to be seen as boss and like remote work is not as conducive to that like higher article structure I guess. I think that was just an opinion but I was like, oh, I got to, I got to think on that for a little bit.

Yeah. So those trends are really big, but I don't know, my advice to, I think the biggest thing that junior developers can learn is how to interview the interviewee. Ooh, love that. I'm like that. I like that. Yeah. So a lot of my job is being, I kind of joke like HR translator because I think our graduates apply to everything sometimes. They're like, just throw a dart at a dart board. Yeah. And I try to say, all right, understand like this job. Like I think crucial questions to ask is of course like what is kind of the work from home or in office policy and get that really nailed down because I think people be like oh it's flexible and then you show up and you're like hmm three days a week yeah I think understanding what percent you're going to be actually heads down doing development work versus what percent you're on internal team meetings versus what percent you're on like let's say like client facing meetings is probably one of the biggest ones I see people kind of show up to companies and they're surprised and that mismanaged expectations really leads to kind of like an unsuccessful like 10 year at the company.

And I think a lot of these entry-level roles like there a lot of them like are just like heads down sure you're just doing development but so many is like just these internal team meetings. Oh my gosh. Yeah. People are shocked by that and I think like nailing in like what that is, you know, what someone's management style is knowing, okay, who are the people? Like a huge thing is like, I can tell you, you know, I have my team meetings Mondays and Fridays and I talk to my manager on Thursday. So that's really like, I have very few like internal team meetings. But then it's very important to know like is there a daily standup?

Do I have to meet? Who are those ex people and how many times? How many ex times do you have to meet with them every week? It's like crucial because I can totally shift the work dynamic. So those are kind of the ones off the top of my head though. That's so good. I think and correct me if I'm wrong, right? You are more than welcome to correct me. I legit think that like a lot of people, especially junior developers, and listen, I get it, right? You want your first job out of tech. Like listen, hear me when I say this, I understand that people are jacked up and want to take the first job.

But, but, I tweeted this the other day and like people didn't like it, but it's fine. I'm all for controversial opinion. It's crazy, it's crazy the amount of the trolls, especially on TikTok, that's a whole nother thing. But I said like, I think you should ask so many questions when you get an offer, you're trying to talk yourself out of the job. Mm. Right? Because I think what happens, and again, listen, utmost grace, empathy, I understand, right? You want your first job in tech, please hear me when I say that. But I think a lot of times, individuals who interview, they get the offer, they're like, their eyes glaze over and they're like, oh shit, I got an offer.

I'm good. Yes. It's like, did you, you know, and listen, listen, listen, I tweet, so if I actually gave an internal, internal seminar yesterday on content creation to the entire Vaco technology practice. But I said, you know what, like, we're having to deal with candidates right now that have to negotiate and we are seasoned salespeople and we don't even know how to negotiate. Right, so like, I think we take for granted the negotiations side of things. And so my thing, for those of you who are watching now in the future, please ask questions. And it's okay to ask questions because, now I'll shut up after this, because you wanna be a part of an organization that accepts open thinking and open minds.

And if you're scared to ask questions for an employer, maybe you shouldn't work for that employer because you're just gonna sit there and not ask questions when you get started off my soapbox. You're cool. Well, I was gonna add controversial opinion. Hiring should be more like dating and dating should be more like hiring. Oh good. Tony, I've had a live show so it's taste Thursday. So four days dating has been brought up in three of them now. I guess it's a charming season. I don't know what's in there. Yeah, exactly. I love it. I love it. So like literally it's like, listen, the DM game, the DM game, right?

Dating. Don't be weird. I was a little weird, right? I found a wife. It's OK though. Right? DM game. very important first date, first interview. Zap, you know we should have just dagged on my title of this whole thing like dating and interviewing. I just had like a dating that we'll have to do again. And we'll just do like a dating and like interviewing specific thing. But yeah, you're so right. And I think it's also like, I am probably a very crazy person and very blessed that the Nashless offers feel hired me. I think I got my offer and I had two more, Two or three more calls where I had to be like, wait, before I accept.

Good. Can we, and it's also, that's a great, I don't wanna say test, because I just hate testing people in general, but it is a little bit of a test of, you have this offer on the table, are they willing to have another phone call with you? Really indicative of how much they're gonna invest in you once you're an employee for them. Yeah. And there's just so many more follow up questions that you don't think of during the interview, but whenever they pop in your mind, write it down. And when you get the offer and be like, listen, I love this offer, I'm gonna write it down.

Write it down. So many times we get into these interviews and we're just sitting there and it's like, yeah, yeah, that sounds good, that sounds good, that sounds good, that sounds good. Then all of a sudden you're like, do you have any questions? And you're like, wait. Oh my God. Shit, I had like four of them. I write them down, so go ahead. If you can't think of a question that you need to know, just ask it, even if you don't need to know, ask a dumb question, because when I interview someone and they don't have any questions to me, as someone who's hired in the past, I'm like, oh, they don't care about this job.

So people, if you're in the moment, like, oh, I don't know what to ask, make something up. I mean, it's so true, literally, like, literally, if, let's say you're on a date, right? and you and like the other person across from you's like, you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, well, I mean, you have it. Like, I mean, again, I don't know if you're gonna say, like, do you have any more questions on a date? I did. That was one of the reasons why my wife kind of hated me to start cause I interviewed her, but that's just part of my job. But it's literally like, hey, do you, like if you sit there and you're on the first date and you don't ask any questions, what do you think the other person is gonna interpret that as?

Same thing. There, but Barrett down here always have questions. And here's the deal. If they've answered all of them, make up another one. Yeah, there's always opinion pieces. Why do you like working here? Why do you not like working here? Why would you say, what are the, like, there's a simillion of like, that they've never, they could have answered a little bit, but you could just ask in a different way. Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely. So, so talk, we got, so we got 10 minutes left. Now, news time would fly by with you. I'm also hanging out with Haley tonight too. We're gonna be able to NTC event together.

So I think a double dose of Haley today. Talk about the startup. So let's talk about startups a little bit, right? You really pass about startups. So I want to give you the opportunity to kind of put your kind of community up on a pedestal right now and brag about. So talk about what you've developed for community for a startup perspective. And then just talk about some general thoughts on the startup community in Nashville. Yeah, so I just love hanging out with crazy people who are like, oh, I don't want that W2 anymore. Let me just tell them a problem that I'm super passionate about.

So it was only pretty much when I started this NSS gig, I started this group called Nash Tech. And we are just, we're on the mission to build the startup community in Nashville. Really focused on the founder and investor experience. So it's really just like this invite only thing because a lot of events are happening. Can I get a pen? As long as you don't sell anything. I won't tell anything. I won't say anything. I promise that. I'll just be a fly on the wall. I'll be a fly on the wall. I promise. I promise. Yeah, you could definitely get an invite. I'm like a tough cookie though.

Like I grew up here. I'm like, I'm like, because again, I want it to be everyone that you talk to is like genuinely track like interested in what you're doing. And not from the perspective that they're interested because they want to sell you like a product or a service. And if you need products or services, I know like the whole slew of startup lawyers and startup accountants and sales consultants. But the startup community in Nashville is really like, I mean, it's just this baby ecosystem right now. We're really in our infancy. I think the greater, I'm interested in the greater tech ecosystem, which is just emerging now with all these companies kind of moving to town.

And the startup ecosystem is like this subsidiary of that, that's significantly smaller. But more and more founders have relocated here from Silicon Valley, New York, LA, in COVID because, one, I mean, I probably, of life is great. And two, they're like, I can run my company and attract investors no matter where I am. Yeah, I had a girl on our team move from LA and she's living in like a 4,000 square foot house. She said she was paying the same amount for a studio two bedroom apartment in LA. Yeah. I know people are like, Nashville is getting so expensive, but we're still a lot more affordable than other parts of the country.

I still feel like I live in the dream here compared to when I lived in Manhattan. But it's just a baby ecosystem. It's a lot in health tech. we've historically been like a health tech startup ecosystem, but we're seeing a lot more stuff come. And I think PropTech is really emerging here. I think like property technology. Oh, property technologies. Yeah. So like built is like our unicorn, which is huge. But then now there's all these kind of baby ones that I'm like, oh, like this isn't like directly connected to built, but they're kind of servicing the same clients. And I mean, a lot of stuff is literally being built in Nashville.

So it's a great client base if you're, you know, selling to residential and commercial builders, developers, you know, I didn't think about that. That's a big one. EdTech, there's like a decent number of EdTech companies in town. But we're seeing just more come outside of just that healthcare technology space too. Yeah. And I want to give Haley props because she's doing the thing that I preach all the time and that's building community. And what does she do? She literally took something she's passionate about. And what is it? Is it a Slack channel? Is it Discord? What is it? I host monthly events. OK. Literally, Haley just does a monthly event because she's passionate about it.

You just did it, right? I mean, this is your thing. You weren't instructed by anybody. I do this. You're just like, hey, I'm really passionate. I'll start up seeing this is what I want to do. I literally had an email list of 30 people. But now it's an email list of almost 300. Go away. Like this part of now. I'm watching you. Because I think if, especially I'm all about like, I love Nashville, but it's kind of funny because I never imagined myself living here. Oh, really? And I mean, I'm really into tech. I'm like, kind of a little, I used to be a hippie, not as much anymore.

I wouldn't say this is like a place for hippies. Yeah. But I love Nashville because there's so much room to create whatever you want here. And other cities, like they're too built up. I couldn't go to New York and like build a community there. It'd be so difficult just to get a space to fit everyone that I wanted to fit. And that's crazy. I didn't even think about that. Right? Like trying to build a community in New York City, Manhattan versus like Nashville and just trying to find a spot to house. Yeah. If you think it's missing in Nashville, it probably is in Nashville is hungry.

The city is just hungry for hustlers to come and build. whatever that they see we need. And I, of course you could fail, but I've seen most people succeed because the city agrees. It's like, oh, yeah. Like if you just stay consistent, you're gonna win. It's not hard. And for the people who are watching this, I'm really bearing on community, but I talk about this a lot. And I try to dumb it down, right? Haley's got a startup, right? I'm passionate. I'm passionate about corgis, right? Big corgi guy. I got a corgi. It's the best dog ever. Don't at me. the premier dog. You can host a corgi meetup and so many people would tell me.

And you know what? I bet I'd meet a ton of hiring managers too and a ton of people like ice hockey, right? Play ice hockey. I literally lace up next to VPs of engineering and senior devs all the time. Look, half my hockey team is IT and didn't even plan on it. So we got a few minutes left. I want to give some shout outs. JC, it's good to see you from Memphis. this is I'm going back to asking questions. This is a great take, not only because you'll see more landmines and have a stronger negotiation position because no one is excited to hire a desperate person.

Love that, love that. Mary giving us props on the asking questions. John with some comedy this morning would love to get raised for you. For that. LinkedIn user, whoever you are, I'm looking for, I wonder if this is Dr. T. Dr. T, I think this may be you. Jamaica was giving you props. Gone, girl. Derek goes, is there a merger or are you planning a merger between NashTech and helping people find new devs, helping find new devs? Is this a good starting job or are there separate passions? I would love it to be. That's a good question. As Simon, I think there's a lot of synergy between.

I kind of joke, like if any NSS student wants to work at a startup, I got them. Like I've got the hookup. Sure. And if any startup wants to hire an NSS, I also have the hookup. I've had to turn a lot of them away. I tell people no all the time and it'll be like, oh, I want to hire a junior and I'm like, well, you have anyone on your team who can properly manage a junior developer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And some do, and some do, but a lot don't. It's like, I'm like, please don't make your first hire a junior developer who like works with like your agency.

Like, that's not- Not gonna work. Setting anyone up for success. So I get more people hired at startups, but it's mostly startups are hiring for mid to senior just because they're so early stage. They definitely don't have that infrastructure and process built up for the junior developers. But once they get, you know, maybe like 20, 30 people, I'm like going to send all of our NSS grads who want to go work in the startup environment their way. I love it. I think too, I think building community is developing a place where you don't take. I think Haley's doing an amazing job of that, where she's wanting to give back.

You have to have this give back mentality when creating community, because that's the only way in my opinion to succeed. I think Haley's doing a great job of bridging junior developers, but also the startup scene. So, props to you, girl. I'm a superstar. Thank you. I'm like, I would love to take a little bit. I just hope so many people get jobs or funding, but I'm like, it'll pay off. Like when you give enough, like it pays off eventually. Doing the right thing is always the right thing. Because sometimes I'm like, dang, I wish I couldn't raise like $100,000. I know, seriously. Mary comes down to says, are you only helping NSS grads?

So, I mean, my job is helping NSS grads, but I am personally passionate about, you know, helping people launch careers in technology. I post a lot about the technical roles of starting as a developer or an data analyst. And I also post a lot about what are the jobs for non-technical folks. You do not need to have a background to start in software sales or in tech recruiting or in customer support. I think in customer success is a great kind of department get into if you're a former teacher or secretary and you want to do something better. Right. Not better but make some more money maybe better.

Yeah. Yeah. No I love that. So all right I always finish up with leaving the guest with the ability to share any last nuggets right. Wise words of wisdom from Zapp this morning. Oh my goodness. You have anything else that you want to impart either on junior devs, job seekers right now, hiring managers, just anything you're really passionate about right now and want to just kind of wrap up with this. I guess a common theme throughout all of this is like, I really think it's for the taking. So I think with a job, like students are so worried about getting a job, they're jobs out there and it's just about going and getting them.

Like it's going and reaching out to people, it's being hungry for it. same with building community. Like, it's not, you know, what I'm doing is not reinventing the wheel. It's just being consistent and doing it. And it's all like for the taking if you just put yourself out there. I love it. I love it. Well, y'all, thank you again for tuning in today. I appreciate it. Haley, you're wonderful. Stay on, don't log off. I want to chitch out with you before I see you again tonight. So y'all go connect with Haley on LinkedIn. And I'm sure she'll very much welcome DM. So shooter DM. Also to tomorrow last show for me for the year.

So Haley is one of the last people on the show. So I have one more individual Jason. Tomorrow he's at Rocket Home. If you all don't know with the Rocket Home dev team, dev advocate team, incredible. Jason's a senior developer. We're going to talk about the job search. He was a consultant for 23 years before ending up at Rocket Home. So we're going to talk about that. And that is the last episode. So next tomorrow, last episode of the year before 2022. But boy, do we have some guests in 2022. Even, even Kent Dodds. So for those of you who do not know Kent Dodds, he's hugely the JavaScript community, the React community.

He's coming on the show. I was able to grab him. So that's gonna be awesome. So again, thank y'all for hanging out with me and Zat today. Haley, you're amazing. Thanks guys. All right, we'll see y'all. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others and And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please, like, right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it.

So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, Taylor at Vaco.com or at T.S. and on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.