promoting a fun environment for devs w/my friend ray morrison

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Hello, hello. Thanks for listening to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Listen, I want to give you a quick rundown of what this podcast is and what you're about to get into as you listen to these episodes. We had Guidance Counselors in middle school. We had Guidance Counselors in high school, but we didn't really have Guidance Counselors in college and now as professionals, we don't really have anybody to turn to, to ask a quick question to learn something about the job search or to navigate your career. And so that is what I want this podcast to be for you. I want it to be a tool for you to navigate the job search and your career.

So that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you need to reach me, Taylor at vaco.com is how to get in touch with me old fashioned email social media at tdesntdesseyn. And finally, please rate and review this in the app store because I want this to be discoverable for others so they can navigate their careers. I hope you enjoy the episode. Barrett, what's going on? Emmett's more Morgan, Kevin, it's what's going on. I'm just now seeing LinkedIn pushing. So we'll probably get some stragglers here in a minute. So all that being said, enough of me running on mouth. Alex is good to see you.

Ray, let's give the people what they want. Please introduce yourself. Hi guys, I'm Ray Morrison and I'm a friend and engineer at OC Tanner. Just a junior guy, first step job. So. I love it. I love it. So Ray, like I said, Ray is a second guest. Kayla, Cincinnati, I'll see you this week, leaving tomorrow for sincey. I'm excited. So Ray's a second time guest. Ray and I really hit it off last time. Last conversation Ray and I had, if you did not watch it, go back to my YouTube page and watch it. But Ray, it was a fountain of knowledge. I don't know if that's a term, I think it's a fountain of youth, but a fountain of knowledge, Ray had knowledge and he had fountains of it.

And so we talked about posting through for content. and then how to get a job from bootcamp from zero to one. What we're going to talk about today is two main things. We're going to talk about going from one to one and a half. Right. So Ray, so we talked zero to one as in no job, co camp, two job. What we're going to talk about today is you got the job. What do you do in the first 90 days to be effective? Obviously, there's a lot of leadership books out there about the first 90 days and how important it is. So Ray, I want to dive into this first and then the next topic we'll dive into is Ray was, Ray was bragging on an OC Tanner just on the environment that they obviously promote.

So we're going to talk about that as well. But Ray, one to one and a half. So you got the job at OC. What are some things that you would recommend for folks to do once they get their first job? Oh boy. So first of all, if anybody missed the thing last time, just like a two second recap of why I'm here and where I came from. I'm a boot camp grad. I came from factory jobs and restaurant work. And then within, it was last July, I lost my job. And then by February, I was freelancing by June, I got my personal time role. So from manufacturing to tech and software engineer roles in about seven months.

So that's why it's impressive. At least even I brag on that, without being too arrogant about it. Listen, listen, listen, listen, I tell people, brag, you need to brag, right? Like, seriously, like, now's your time to do it. So Braggle Braggle way. But then as far as like whenever I got into OC Tanner, I mean, I guess the first couple of weeks were just like get your laptop, get your accesses set up. I think it took almost two weeks to get back to Jira. And then we have some proprietary tooling. Like to even run one of our repos locally, I need access to our pipeline app called a curious, which is completely proprietary to OC Tanner.

And since I didn't have access, I couldn't even run yarn start. It was great. So once we got that all done though, I'm pretty fortunate. I mean, obviously I can't speak to how anybody else's first experience might go. Maybe they aren't as fortunate as I am and get a team that's cooperative, but I was assigned an onboarding buddy, which is just another member of my friend and team. He was bright on about two months before me, but has I think two to three years experience as a pilot, I won. And he's great. Taylor's been there, well actually his name's Taylor too. I love it. I love it.

Yeah, he's been great. He's been there like anytime. I have a question So have the other couple front end engineers on my team But they've made it really easy. I really can't complain and I don't think it's been that hard to ramp up the I mean the thing is that whenever you get hired for any role you probably only know about 50% of the stack So for me, I was really familiar with react and TypeScript and material UI but I didn't know GraphQL and Apollo. I was a REST API guy. So now my biggest ramp ups were like, just I wanna take GraphQL and Apollo courses and trying to figure out the distinguishing bits between the two was something that might not be super important but is important to me.

Like if you might not know whether this particular tooling you're using is coming from this package or that. Whenever you talk about it, you sound kind of like a dummy to a senior and I don't want to be that dumb. So, buddy program obviously is the first thing, right? So companies have a buddy program. So what are some things that y'all did? Did you have like daily sinks, weekly sinks? Like what did that relationship look like? Cause I think it's so vital, right? I mean, I kind of structured this on my team. New person comes in depending on where they fit within my team. They have a buddy based off the role they have or is going to have.

So how did that dynamic work, the job weekly calls, daily calls, just give me some color on that. So every day in the morning, we have a little Slack message that comes off from the Slack bot saying, reminder front end, post your stand up in this thread. Rather than do a daily stand up with the whole team, we just kind of have a thread where we mentioned what we're going to do, mostly just to avoid merge conflicts, like letting each other know what tickets we're rolling with. But there's no real structure. It was just tailors here. And he's like, all right, let's talk about what you're going to do today.

Okay, you're just waiting on access as well. Then you go ahead and do learning. If you need anything, feel free to reach out to me. But once I actually started taking tickets, me personally, I like to kind of have my hand held for five minutes through a repo. Just like on my first ticket, I'm driving, but you're watching my screen share going, okay, so this file does this and then we're gonna go here just so I can get a picture of how the file structure actually works and what that is being passed where, what's props where. So, I mean, both back then and actually this week because I just started hopping into a new repository.

Basically, I'd say, okay, well, we'll take this ticket. It doesn't look too terribly hard. Will somebody just sit in a Zoom call with me and like, somebody just be my friend? You'll basically do the work for me because this is my first ticket in this repo and I just want to get this for how it works. But I'll be the one letting the code come out of my fingers. That's kind of how I got started for my first ticket or two, and it would just be like one ticket for a two-week sprint at first. But as we discussed backstage, since I've come on and started actually taking tickets, now I've merged like 25 PRs in the last two months.

Each one of which was a separate ticket or bug fix for like a total of almost 5,000 lines of code since June. That's awesome. So the initial ramp up, I didn't do much from June to July. And then from the middle of July until now, so like two, three months, I've been steadily in these institutions. Real quick, I want to give a shout out to people who have tuned in, Alice, good morning. Morgan goes, Ray, where's your pup? He was here, but the camera kept on focusing on the camera. Yeah, the camera kept being weird. He was here, but then the pup threw the camera out.

So I'm just wondering if the camera three times, I bring him back up, but I don't want to risk it going. Yeah. Yeah, but the pup is still there. I love that Alberto. It's great to see you Ryan. Emmett Big Wolf on the 1 to 1.5. Yeah, it's incredibly important. We'll continue to dive into this. Alex, it's great to see you, Dev. So good to see you, Maasigan, since he in a few days, Trey and Nick. It's good to see you, my man. So I want to, again, I want to get across. So it sounded like having room to breathe in the first month or two that you had to be able to read the documentation to research to get things going.

I feel like that is a key part of nurturing a junior dev because I'm sure, I mean, and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure there's a lot of anxiety that comes in for your first job and posture syndrome, holy cow, what do I do? And would you say OC Tanner gave, if fostered that for you, like giving you that space to kind of work through stuff? Yeah, you phrased it really well actually and gave me the words I needed. So yeah, that was it. I had the autonomy and the space to just do whatever. There were very few expectations. And I think a lot of that stems from the fact that I was hired as an associate and not a new level developer.

That would be a very different picture if I was coming in with two years' experience and hired at a higher pay grade. But they basically, like they had seen my GitHub, they knew what they expected of me based on that or interview and then they were just kind of like, okay, well you take, you know, whatever time you need, two weeks, four weeks, you just tell us as you're more comfortable, you tell me when you want more than one ticket for this. Or what you're comfortable with. Like we have our grooming meetings every couple weeks and they were, they're very adamant about like, look, be honest about your story point values.

Just tell me what you're feeling like, I don't want to give you more than you're comfortable with it doesn't help me, it doesn't help you. So were you able to feel, and also for those of you who are watching that, or either are junior dev or more junior in your career, or even a senior dev, that remembers the time, can y'all throw up some comments about what has made a company allow you to be successful as a junior dev. Again, if y'all have thoughts, comments, from your own experiences, please throw them up. I would love to highlight them and talk about them. You know, Ray, did you get to a point where you were like, were you nervous even telling them, like, hey, I just am, I'm overwhelmed.

I'm still not figuring out, like, did you battle with that even in your first 30, 60, 90 days? I mean, I'm gonna brag a little bit and say that I haven't felt overwhelmed yet, but- There you go, I love it, I love it. It's a little bit like- Now is that your confidence or is that just how good OC is about education, buddy program, giving you space? That's what I was gonna say. Yeah, it's like it's a mixture. Like yes, I have discovered through feedback from nearly every member of my team that, I mean, the words have been used. You're punching above your weight compared to other junior devs that you've seen.

So they've told me that and I'm consistently getting positive feedback. So yes, a little bit of it is aptitude or skill from having practiced before I got the job. but a lot of it is the fact that OC Tanner is just kind of like, okay, dude, we understand that this is your first full-time dev role. We knew that when we hired you. Now we need to treat you like it's your first full-time role. We won't give you more than you ask for, at least not for your first 90 days. I mean, after that, maybe they didn't even give me a hard expectation of when they expected me to take on more or anything.

It's just that I started getting more comfortable. I was going to ask you, I was going to ask you now, and bear it. I'll get your comment here in a second again. For those of you who are watching, throw up some comments, maybe about some success stories you've had growing up as a dev. But Ray, were there any like defined metrics? Like Ray, you need to have... No, none. Wow. And I'm sure that took the burden off of you too, right? For sure. Yeah, it was just, it was just expected that I do my best to learn and try. And as long as I was putting in the effort, we were good.

I love that. Barrett comes in here mentoring is critical for new devs, pair them up with senior people so they can both learn the tech and code, but also how to navigate the company culture. That's nearly as important in tech. Listen, Barrett, I'm glad you brought this up. I think navigating internal culture is huge. Ray, were you taught that? Or did anybody help you navigate internal culture? is that something you just kind of figured out on your own? Well, out in Salt Lake City, like there's a lot of Mormonism and Latter-day Saints type of culture. That's not like company culture per se, but it's really suffused its way through the company because they're mainly based in Salt Lake.

So I've had conversations with several of my teammates who, especially because I come from an area where you can have the potty mouth and you can pretty much say whatever and people aren't going to get offended. But yeah, no, I mean, there have been people who have stepped up who are a little more relaxed and don't care about the potting out who have talked to me and been like, Hey, just so you know, you might want to be careful around, you know, upper management or like, watch what you say and who you say it to, which is like the only thing I needed to navigate as far as company culture because the rest of it at OC Tanner is just like, basically their culture is we give a shit about people.

That's it. That's the whole to give it. We give a shit about people. That's actually a great little slogan I think I think that should be adopted somewhere. We give a shit. It's like it's like I say Whoever runs marketing for Canva their their logos should be designed for dummies. That's I firmly believe that So JC it's great to see you air cuts great to you Connor. It's great. See we got some stragglers this morning. I love it Nick Nick comes in. I think as someone more senior you should be expected to pair and guide newer folks. That's how you scale your knowledge in your team.

Is that something OC does as a whole? By the way, I'm like some like walking billboard for OC this morning. So. It's a good company to be a billboard for. Yeah. So I mean, is this is just something they do across the board. I mean, I mean, I mean, buddy programs. No, not really. There's not like a structure of it. And I can't speak to other teams either because I only have experience with about 15 people in the organization that I work with day to day. And I've met a lot of others. right, like the ones that I work closely with. And it's not like we don't have scheduled like paired programming or like anything that's required.

Basically, we just have a backlog of Jira tickets and we create new ones as we see fit too because we're doing a rebuild. And whenever we need help with it, like if it mostly me, but like the mids sometimes need help too. And whenever that need arises, we just, especially whenever there's some complicated tickets, We'll just say we have a weekly front end meeting. We just call it a round table. And whatever we feel is important that week we discuss, which in some cases could be, hey, we've got a difficult sprint coming up. How do we want to tackle this? Maybe we get together and we have Ray Perry with somebody or Doug Pears with somebody on this ticket or, hey, senior, you know how to do that, but can I sit in with you and we'll work on it?

That's definitely an option, but it is in no way required or structured that way. Do you, I'm kind of curious, you brought something up and I was actually talking to my brother about this because he's in product. Do y'all, and I know you just answered this, I just want to reiterate, do y'all, do you feel comfortable sharing those front and round tables? Are your voices heard? Are your ideas heard? Because I feel like there needs to be more just like, hey, I feel like there needs to be more meetings. Hear me out, hear me out before everybody rolls their eyes about meetings. I feel like there needs to be more meetings around, hey, let's just meet to think.

throw out ideas, what's working, what's not. Do y'all have that type of culture? I mean, is that something that y'all do a lot of? We have that meeting. So we have that meeting. Every two weeks, our meeting schedule for sprints includes a grooming meeting just to kind of put story point values on tickets. Okay. A planning meeting where we officially decide what's in the sprint and hit the button. And then a what we call a retro, it's at the end of every sprint. I love that. We talk about what went well, what was that? Orly what we could do better. And we basically open up a Figma file.

And my boss usually comes up with some analogy to like a fulcrum and like a whale and a minnow or some machine from the 20s and explains how it's relevant to basically that concept. And then we spend an hour and a half in there just dropping sticky notes on the page saying like, well, maybe the pipeline was backed up here and we could have done that better. Or maybe in this past script we talked about doing more like vertical slice work. we're front-end and back-end can work simultaneously on a thing. That kind of stuff. Just whatever we feel would improve the workflow or whatever we want to say went well.

And then also we have like the recognition that OC Tanner sells. We also obviously have access to. So like recently I had a test engineer who basically solo cleared out like six tickets in an afternoon that had been blocking up the pipeline. And so I nominated her for an award for like 100 points on the website. They go from like bronze to platinum, like that usual ranking. That's awesome. And so then in the meeting, you can be like, hey, Jessica, I nominated you for this. You did a really great job. Thank you so much. And then I love that. It's just a thing. It feels nice to be told, thank you.

Yeah, yeah. And this is kind of, this is a perfect segue into kind of our second half of this conversation on promoting fun environments for devs, right? What, or a real quick forum move on, Is there any other tips, advice, tricks for developers to go from that one to one and a half? Like anything else that other developers should be doing in their first 90 days at a new company, especially more junior in their career? I think it's gonna be really dependent on the company that you land in and what they give you the freedom to do. Not every time, not every company's just gonna say, hey, no requirements, just learn at your own pace, let us know if you're comfortable.

Sometimes there's gonna be some hard deadlines. So just learn where you can, utilize the learning resources that your company has. We have LinkedIn learning licenses, but I have premium so that didn't matter to me. But, oh yeah, you know what, as far as learning goes, I did, I made a post about it, but not everybody sees my posts. I applied, I sent in a JIRA ticket because I wanted to get a course that was called CSS for JavaScript developers by Josh Komeo if I'm pronouncing this. Yeah, I think I know who you talking about. Yeah, it's like a $400 course. I wasn't like, if it was a $15 Udemy thing, I'd just buy it in the questions.

I asked, and they approved it and got it to me like within a day or two after the request and been officially submitted. That's cool. Yeah. That's really cool. And so I made, we do have our bonuses in the, in the, it's an annual bonus, but we split it into June and December. And then there, we set our own goals. Okay ours for the for the quarter for the Biannual period for the quarter for the binary whatever Um, and so I said, well, you know, would it be a good idea if you guys get this for me? Could I make completing it a goal that towards like I love that.

I love that. I love that. I'm like a great idea and so now I've got like the first four modules as this quarters goal And then just I love that towards my bonus metrics. That's awesome. That's so cool, man. I want to go work in every ct I'm gonna see here. So Alice comes in. It's great when companies are understanding of a new dev like that We'd love to have a similar experience to you Ray Dev comes in my workplace Enabling me to do my own research and bring in new ideas and techniques and implement them into our projects Love that Barrett will believe that that's funny a little potty mouth would make me feel more at home, you know, this is interesting This is this is kind of something I was talking to Ray about cursing before we went live and I don't know.

I just, listen, I am not saying that you need to be dropping F bombs and cursing on the interviews, but I do have to say I feel like in today's professional world that like almost cursing like makes you more human. I call it modern professionalism is what I would say. You call modern professionalism? That's what I'd say. I mean, I try to be really real and relatable and not do that fake professional visage even in interviews. come to OC Tanner, well, you will have the best top line to developer. Not even that, but like when you're interviewing, like people tend to put on this like very professional facade.

I do not do that. I don't put on the mask. I just be real. And if I swear, I swear and like realistically, you know, you're going to do it in the workplace anyway, pain and accurate picture of yourself. So there's no surprises. Ooh, love that. Everybody hear that? Be your true self. I say this all the time. Actually, there's a really senior developer I follow. I've actually had him on unicorn finers. His name is Tejas Kumar, go follow him on Twitter. He's not on LinkedIn, but he works for a startup called Zada. And basically he tweeted a while back, he goes, I'll never forget I cursed in an interview and they rejected me because of it.

But he goes, now that I'm older, I'm so glad I didn't work there if that's the type of culture that they were wanting or looking for. So yeah, like I said, you don't got to roll in there and being like a dang sailor, if you know what I mean. Yeah, be respectful. Be respectful. Yeah, 100%. Nick comes in, you know, someone more senior, create a space where folks feel safe to contribute, convert, anybody can bring input to the table. Go check that link out. Let's see here, Jordan, it's great to see you. Nick goes side note, but some public libraries give you LinkedIn Learning for free.

Love that. Yeah, Tejas is fantastic. All right, so last, last, what did Dev say? not being on LinkedIn is a good sign of how one feels about professionalism today. Yeah. So Ray, last few minutes here. Can you talk about some things where managers can listen to now or in the future about just some fun things that OC Tanner's been doing to promote a healthy developer environment. Maybe what you kind of told me offline about the gift cards and stuff. Sure. Hey, by the way, Arthur, no, no Scrum Master. Oc Tanner, they do random stuff that I don't see coming. I guess the people who work here for a while are a little jaded to it.

Like they mentioned it whenever I was a little blown away. A couple months ago, we got an email on a Monday morning. They called it the inflation deflator gift. I randomly got an email saying that company-wide everybody was just getting $250 in gift cards. follow this link and you can pick whichever ones you want, you know, Walmart, whatever. Just because they just woke up one morning and they were like, hey, prices are gas-arizing, prices of food are rising. I mean, we can't, we have a large company like thousands of employees, but we're gonna do a little something. Here's 250 bucks for everybody. And while that may not be huge for people on like senior dev salaries, but like they did it for their hourly factory workers too who are making their jewelry and pins and stuff, making like, I don't know, 15, 20 bucks an hour.

Yeah. Which was just a great gesture. I was blown away. That's not necessarily my direct manager. That's an upper position. But really cool nonetheless. And then again, as a whole, OC Tanner's whole thing is we sell employee recognition products. So like every quarter, or anybody who, any company who has our culture cloud software, every account, every employee that gets a point balance that they can give to their peers. You can send a little e-card points. We get 300 at our company, but I figure that you can probably like, you purchase a tier that tells you. I'm sure I'm not sure. I'm assuming that's how it works.

I don't know. But we get 300 points, and then throughout the quarter, I can say, you know, Taylor, you did a great job, you know, helping me through a really difficult problem. I was having thanks so much, here's 50 points. And that story where you redeem the points as everything from like kitchen utensils and earbuds and towels to trips to kin coom. Like, I mean, you have to say it forever to get that amount of points. But the rewards that I was talking about that we can nominate people for give more points than like the bronze award is 100 points and that's the lowest it goes.

And then it goes up from there. So you might get 500 or 1000 at a time. And you could get a Mac book if you wanted to for like 20, and everybody votes for people in that, in the organization for that, or give props or recognition, how does that work? It's individual, so I get a balance, you get a balance, your friend and your on your team gets a balance, we can give them to whoever you want. Okay, I know. It's not a nomination or a voting thing, you just get handed points that you can give to whoever in the organization you feel like. And then the, oh, you were probably talking about the awards.

Yeah, the bronze silver. Yeah, yeah. like if I want to give you more points than that or I think you deserve like public recognition here's an e-card then I can just submit a form and say hey I'd like to know about that. Here's the explanation of why just the note to the approver and they can read it and decide and then the message that will be displayed publicly on the board. I think there needs to be more internal recognition. I just think, I just truly think that I think, you know, and this is this is another conversation for another day, but I think companies are so focused on trying to get new talent.

They're not taking care of the talent they have internally. For sure. They've talked to recently too about like, I guess every October our salary bands get updated. So it's quite possible that I might get a pay raise just because the band changes? Yeah. Where like, you know, you don't see every company adjusting there. Here's, here's the deal. Here's the deal. Here's the deal. It's not hard to go above and beyond. It's really not. It's not a job of a two, but 90% of companies don't because it takes a different mindset. Listen, here's the deal. I'm saying this now. I still make mistakes. I had one of my recruiters call me out because you didn't really, I felt hurt because you didn't recognize me from my one year.

Right? So listen, I'm saying this because I need to hold myself accountable, right? I'm not perfect. And it's like, and I think the companies who can be more focused in it's hard, right? We're blowing and going 1000 miles an hour. But if you can focus on the individual and the employee, I think, I think it goes, I think it goes a super long way. Let me ask you this right. Last question, two, two questions. This is the second last question. Because OC gave you, which is, I'm trying to prove a point here, because OC gave you a chance as a junior developer start, would you say that you will stay with them longer because they gave you your first chance?

I think that that was my initial mindset coming in. Yeah, it was just like the you do this seven month search and then you know you get rejection after rejection. Then the company finally gives you that chance. Like it makes sense that you'd have a sense of loyalty. I think that that would wear off pretty quickly though. Now that I've been there like you're grateful to the person that had become, you kind of take it for granted. But I will say, I mean, and I've been really upfront about this with my manager and I'm fine to say it publicly. Outside of like, there are two companies and I have in mind that I was really interested in, and I didn't know who's OC Tanner was.

Like I realistically was just interviewing for OC Tanner and was like, okay, you want to give me an offer, I'll take it. I didn't know that time. So there were two other companies that I was genuinely, really interested in. And if they approached me to try and poach me within the next like year, I might go just depending. Yeah. But I think that my career path ideally would probably follow a pattern, something like stay with OC Tanner for up to maybe three years and then bounce to a couple different companies for a couple of years at a time. But leave OC Tanner on good terms because like my biggest fear is that I stay at OC Tanner forever because they treat me so well and I just enjoy myself.

But then I'm robbing myself of the ability to see how other companies do things, be extrussing practices, and I'll be a worst developer for it. By the time I get to senior, am I really going to be toe to toe with a senior from another company? It's just my worst fear in the world. So I know I need to lead. But I'd like to circle back and finish my career here if nothing else pops up that I like better. I love that. Branding comes in. Hi Ray. How long after joining did you start feeling useful at your role? I need a great question. I came in June 20, and I'd say probably by the time I talked to Taylor last, I was starting to do well.

I think that was like August 6th, August 8th. So we're talking about a month and a half where I was starting to finally get my toes under me and start contributing stuff on my own and not have somebody over my shoulder while I finished every ticket. Right. I love that. I love that. All right. Last question. how you answered, but where I'm going to ask it again, best piece of career advice to your younger self. Since we had guidance counselors in middle school and high school in kind of college, but not now, I start asking this question for people. What's your greatest piece of career advice to your younger self?

And I don't remember what you answered last time. So you could say the exact same thing. And if I got if I was getting real specific and knowing where I would be now, I'd tell myself to get started coding a lot earlier. Really. The remote environment hasn't been there up until the last few years and I lived in the suburb in Ohio, nowhere near a tech city. So I guess I could have moved. But yeah, I mean, aside from that, I ended up going to college for music, but I had an offer for a full ride for business. I probably should have taken the full ride.

Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. Well, y'all, thank you get for hanging out with us today? Ray, it was a pleasure, man. Time flies. Yeah, man, we need to make these discussions longer. This one too fast. I know, I know 30 minutes too fast. So I already have some people hopping off to go to meetings. But y'all, thank you again. Go connect with Ray. Ray does a great job posting on social. So follow him. That's one of the reasons why I found him is because right again, I want to reiterate everybody I bring on the show I find through Twitter or LinkedIn, right? There's the power to it.

Ray understands to go connect with Ray, follow Ray, and Ray thanks again for another conversation today, man, I appreciate you. It's a pleasure, man, happy to be here. All right, y'all, y'all take it easy. Have a good one, and we'll see you next week. Bye. Hi. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode, and I am very grateful, because you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes, and I myself rarely finished an entire episode, so I appreciate you so, so much for listening. quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the app store. I want this to be discoverable to others.

And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it, please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again. If you need to reach out to me, Taylor at vaco.com or at T. Destin on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.