state of the market & how to stand out

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foreign what's going on everybody happy hump day we made it halfway through the week I'm hanging out with my friend Dan my friend Dan I have two friends named Dan Dan Thompson and Dan the the guy come here listen I I'm terrible with names and faces I'm surprised I've been this successful in the recruiting industry for this long because I'm terrible at everything I only remember you buy your LinkedIn to your resume so I'm kind of Scrooge uh but for those of you tune in welcome it's gonna be with y'all this morning so this is uh uh this is a monumental podcast this is my

last uh last time podcasting with Baco so um uh as of this Friday um I will no longer be with vaco Bittersweet um but uh excited what to have got a lot of interviews popping off it's really funny they had to be on the other side of everything right now um because uh you know I've been preaching about job searching for 12 years or really not your last three on social but I've been doing it for 12 years and now being on the other side it's like surprise you know the expectations are high you know based on your expertise I know I know but for

those of you who are tuning in welcome say hey it looks like it looks like uh LinkedIn is is just now heading JC it's good to see you uh for those of you tune in say hey would love to hear from you um I talk about this all the time this is a networking platform um the amount of people that have built friendships on this platform meant uh Mentor mentees internships apprenticeships new jobs because of this show um is incredible so uh so what I would do if I were you and I say this all the time comment say hey connect with every single person

in the comments connect with every single guest I have on the show hop on over to unicorn finders tomorrow connect with every single founder CEO or startup that I bring on you do that and when Dan and I are going to talk about this today about Community um you're gonna be you're gonna be just fine um and so please comment because if if you are watching and you don't comment people you I don't know you're watching and then you miss out on the opportunity to potentially network with somebody um the next thing ask questions Dan is awesome the reason why Dan's been on the show

three times now um he speaks the truth so if you have questions ask them um this is the one time where you won't get billed for it um let's see here finally I want to give a shout out to that conference um speaking next month in Wisconsin um they also have coffee beans and it's actually really good um so go check that out that conference official coffee sponsor of the show yeah I use the use the code gc2 for a few bucks off your coffee beans can confirm it's great um and it'll really get you going in the mornings um cool I think that's it

Dan uh well first I want to give a shot people tuning in JC Mark James Brady uh winter par Scott uh uh mix I love that name mix from London I love it man actual name Diego I love that name uh Cincy I love it Dan is awesome he spoke with our cohort Tech elevator wasn't going to miss it oh wow that's awesome look at this that's awesome nice that's great um all right Dan well let's give the people what they want who are you what do you do and we'll just go for them uh sure my name is Dan deganji I am a software

engineering manager I've been in it for a while I always say this less great or a lot more gray hair than when I started it's like great I love that intro never fails to hit um so uh I did like a 20-year tour Duty and software I love JavaScript like I literally have the logo tattooed on my leg it's that level of Love um but uh so in the past I worked at like docusignapartments.com most recently was at a logistics company and now I'm actually at activecampaign uh running a really cool new team called velocity and we work in the marketing CRM automation space and

amazing company I'm super happy that I made it here it's a really really cool group of people that's awesome um so so again D an Dan and I so I never have topics for the show um so Dan texted me and he was like so what are we going to talk about I was like let's just get on and hang out and kind of figure it out so so to let you all know kind of what we're talking about today we're gonna dive into the market in general the state of hiring what we're seeing what Dan's seeing um then we're going to talk about you

know Dan just went through the interview process I'm going through the interview process as we speak and so how to stand out some observations tips and tricks on both of our ends because we we both have been in a position of hiring and we've both been on the job search right so we can both speak to both of those and then finally if we have time the importance of community which you all know is my favorite topic um before we dive in um it's good to see you at bidian from La Chris Nick Ricardo it's great to see y'all um all right so Dan what

do you think man is the market back or do we still I kind of was going to ask you that first like what your take was on it but I follow your Twitter and stuff but the Market's weird like I want to say it's coming back but also like if you look around like oh yes I started using Reddit like obsessively finally in my life as much of a nerd as I am and when you read kind of like across like the Cs the jobs the devs people are struggling it's really tough right now you just mean like finding a job and like staying employee

type situation the standout thing that I really picked up on was you know you'd see someone go like I've applied 500 times and I've gotten nothing review my resume yeah like it's like what's the insanity definition doing the same thing no result change and like you pick up on that or you can finally 500 applications I finally got one it's like that's not a great ratio so jobs are coming back but it's also contextual right so I worked in logistics class and they were hiring like crazy and that's awesome their industry did not take th e hit from covid and whatever else you want to

call the current state uh but DocuSign for example they started to pull back because they got hit with the kovid they did great and then it hurt it hurt them so it's slow but surely coming back but there is a lot of pain and competition and that's what I think makes it tough right now yeah and and you know I'm interested like and again there's no wrong answers here I kind of like this topic because no one knows right so if you listen to other podcasts and you're like what no no no one knows no one knows do you think we'll ever get back to

what it was during code with the market ripping as in terms of like you know the arms race or do you think like we won't see that for maybe a long long time again no no wrong answers here I mean I guess the question is what does getting back really mean because it's like if you think about it everything is cyclical you're like I'm not smart but I have you know I understand basic economics right everything is cyclical and you know you might say like you know when I think about before covet it was great but are you thinking just contextually true covet that just

so bad that anything even slightly you kind of lose you know gets a little bit blurry I I don't know I guess I don't like live in the the Cycles in a sense like I know where I'm at I know how to strongly Network I know where my skills are and how to stand out et cetera et cetera so I come in overly confident and I'm okay with that like I I come in because of you know where I'm at but you know not everybody's in that space and just because it's easier for me does not mean it's easier for everybody else so that's not

lost on me sure yeah I think you know this is a very weird recession whatever we want to call it um because it's very focused on the engineering side like I I like and again like I built my business at bayco on engineers and and I've taken a huge hit over the last year because I've been in it I've seen it to where this specifically is affected like I think there was a bunch of over hiring and and as we've seen from a lot of companies a lot of massive over hiring right and and so I mean even as you and I were talking backstage

I just got a text of a developer who I know really well and they're getting laid off like literally and and like literally text me as we were backstage and so like layoffs are still happening I'm still seeing it a lot of it comes with with budget issues right that's the one thing I'm seeing is everyone's still coming back but all that being said there is I would call it percolating right like I'm seeing kind of some you know hey we like you know over the last week I've gotten a few more emails about hey we need we need some hiring needs right we have

some hiring needs and so um you know again I don't know if the marker will ever get back to where you can sleep walk through an interview and get three job offers in a week I don't know if we'll ever get back to that but I do think we're heading back in the right direction where I think there will be an uptick I would say and everything I'm hearing is probably at the beginning of next year is kind of what I'm hearing I hope so I hope so it's nice to have some hiring going you know maybe I will say this when I was hiring

before it was a lot of open roles for the time that it was open most recently it's been a lot more like one onesies twosies kind of thing and it's probably reminiscent of the market but also I think right companies are getting more strategic and smart you know like actually I can't remember the exact number but if I'm not mistaken like Facebook doubled their staff size during covet and now they're seeing why that was not the right strategy just because they were living in the uptick temporarily you know yeah yeah absolutely um and then uh so LinkedIn user I think the market is getting stronger

um and and I so I have a Discord um with engineering leaders Dan I don't know why I haven't invited you to it yet but um basically um so I asked them I said hey everyone checking in anyone seeing the signs of marketing get the market getting better and so one of my buddies who's a who's a CTO so I've I've had several of my contacts reach out and ask if I'm looking because there's some growth in signs of growth in the market the engineering side though my best assessment is not as good as last year but still not terrible so we're still pulling out

of kova it's it's it's slow I think what's more interesting is how do you head your bets against a cyclical Market that's in a downturn and you hear people in investing talk about the same thing why can't we apply that to our job yeah absolutely absolutely um so I so I want to move on because again I don't want to sit on this too much because at the end of the day like we just don't know um but I do want to get into kind of the the meat and potatoes of this talk it's just how do you stand out in the interviews right I'm

going through the interview process you just went through kind of a quick two really two two two times going through the interview process what were your observations and and especially around hiring and and how to stand out so I'm going to take aside the interview piece because the interview is a whole other world to be good and execute and talk effectively um but I'm actually so I'm hiring right now for a QA automation role and the thing I've noticed is that it feels like I am reading the same resume now there is there is some you know understanding right like people are going to bring

the same skills more or less right and but there's not a lot of standout unless it's like you know uh playwrights one of the things we're looking for but it comes in very infrequently it's a lot of selenium users and again none of these are bad things but I almost feel like I'm gonna get forced to just pick like this seems okay this seems okay and I don't like to do that so I put the onus on or I would put the onus on myself a s a job Seeker how do I stand out and stand up doesn't always mean like you know I invented

blah blah blah yeah right like that's where you know it's like the startup mentality I gotta reinvent something new like you don't have to reinvent something new so you talk a lot about networking and I've tried to employ some new networking tactics so when I was job hunting I have one that's percolating like you said um which I'll jump back to um but I still think that one of the most consistent things I've done is I hate to say just tap the network because it sounds like like a duh you know but is how is your Reach Out actually how happening you know I don't

know if you I don't know if we talked about this before but the LinkedIn for a second third connection do you know what that actually is meant to be I mean it is pretty obvious I feel like but your first level of connections your friends your family now I know that's not literally that on LinkedIn but the second is a breach from your one network to the next and so where I think a lot of people kind of like it's a shortcoming is they think oh my friend and family don't and maybe I ask them if they know someone but why don't you just keep

hopping that bubble like hey can you connect me with someone that may be in this area or like hey could I have a conversation with them and then you're starting to go many bubbles out it only takes one hit to start getting something going right but again it's always you know I think you know people get a little myopic on one particular tactic but you have to cast all the lines as much as you can and when it comes that you actually have so many you don't know what to do with that's a different thing to figure out and balance and stuff sure keep keep

pushing out and talking to people like so I found actually interestingly I was helping someone recently and on LinkedIn you know they would honestly just send out something as simple as is hey I love what your company is doing I would love to talk about it I'm interested in it and sometimes it's very directly okay is there anything going on I might be able to kind of like be part of with that company or sometimes just having a conversation not everybody's receptive to it yeah yeah but it's a new line right and it starts a conversation and this is the other thing I'll throw out

there a couple jobs ago when I was hiring if it didn't work out they could go through the interview process and we reject them basically they'd be like well no you don't add them on LinkedIn you rejected them it's bad and it's like no but it's someone that could be in the future the right fit for the role and you could be that person right and so like you may be kind of like timid if you did get rejected but why not go at those people that interviewed you like stay connected with them like it's always that's just what's happening right now but what's going

to happen in the next steps over time that could change so quickly so fast and you need to be part of that you know and that's that's one of the ways that you stay connected to get more jobs yeah and and it's what I'm seeing too and we got some questions coming in some comments I definitely get those in a second but yeah I mean for me going through the job search as we speak right now I mean so much is out of your control like so much like there's been like hey we love you we want you then it's like oh well we gotta

hire this person first and it's like so we'll get back to you and then it's like oh yeah so it's like all over the place and and you make such a good point like you got to connect with everybody because literally so so that that interview that you got rejected from and you connect with them and send them a thank you and I'd be like hey thanks again for taking time to meet with me I totally understand it didn't work out but I appreciate it I did a panel with Kelly Vaughn down at render about hot he's awesome she's awesome I hope I meet her

sometime yeah she's great she 's great and and she she said that she and she's a director of engineering she said she typically doesn't even get her third or fourth choice sometimes for a roll so if you're connecting what Dan just said connecting with every single person you interview with even if it's a rejection and you're kind to them and then all of a sudden like you may be fourth on their depth chart but the other three bailed like you may be getting a call like two weeks later out of the blue so incredibly curly big I don't know if any more thoughts on that

I totally had a thought and it's totally escaping right now it was and it was it was a good nugget too I do want to get a few more people tuned in and some comments here so Austin it's good to see you Erica LinkedIn used for Becky it's great to see you as well I'm definitely going back to the state of the market that we were talking about definitely saw more of my luck interview luck and startup so that's something I've talked to my um my team at vaco about is that your small growth startups are still getting infusions of cash and they still have

to hire people and so that's kind of where I'm seeing more of the hiring right now I don't know if that aligns kind of maybe what you've seen a little bit again no wrong answer I try not to like put myself into one like you know it's interesting recently I had someone where they they did not care what the product was and that's okay like you don't have to it's almost like I changed my tune on you to go for the money like it's okay to go for the money too in my opinion nowadays but um what is this one we have talked about I

think is is everybody sees like fan Google Facebook all those and like that's kind of where they just kind of focus and then when they get rejected that's where you get that anecdotal like the Market's bad I can't get in and stuff but there is so many companies especially like even the fortune 50.

there's a lot of ton of great companies that aren't Fang they may not have that notoriety but startups are out there that's a great opportunity especially right where do startups do they typically hire someone with lesser experience because it doesn't cost as much they're successful they get an MVP out they get more money and then they bring in more Engineers to build it out so there might be a great opportunity in startups and the learning experience in a startup ideally not the bad work life burnout balance that they typically have you'll get a lot of experience that will help you stand out um and I

I always like startups for that for that front 100 uh same LinkedIn user I'm assuming Ed Tech and Healthcare roles have peaked a little bit as well um that that's an interesting observation um and then what indications are you getting that the market is getting hotter are there upticks with clients and companies hiring more people yeah so yeah like we said I'm getting a little bit more emails from hiring managers right like I got a JavaScript engineer a job order yesterday and then I had a few more people reach out to me like hey we may need some help so this is just coming from

my experiences I'm not reading any Trends on dice.com or indeed this is just what I'm seeing and me being in the market right now is there at least for what I'm trying to do there seems to be a lot of opportunity but Dan also went through two recent job changes pretty quickly and and he's seen it as well so I again I I try not to get lost in the current state of the market I try to think what is going to make me have a good foundation so I can again be effective regardless of the situation doesn't mean it just like it goes away

what it is but I'm always going to try and keep my Foundation going so that I can write all these things out and anybody could do that I know it's harder in the beginning but that's the whole point it's a marathon your career not just trying to Sprint even though that feels like you have to Sprint for the first one and I know it's scary when you do n't have a job like it's really terrifying talk let's go back to obviously standing out we talked about first second third connections Scott comes in here because I don't hear a lot of people talking about second and

third degree connections um how did you structure your day um when it when it came to the job search and reaching out to people because again I think me being on the job search trying to time Block it's definitely interesting right if you don't have a job you're not it's your natural inclinations like not wake up as early right sleep in a little bit maybe spend a little bit more time on Tick Tock right and like and then kind of drag like did you hold yourself to a pretty pretty good schedule during the job search no and the reason is honestly I so when I

came into the last job I took a month off before first time in my entire career that I've done that and I mean it was nice like I I just I can tell you all I was I was workaholic in my 20s to 30s and I learned later on you know my values have changed that that's just not the way I want to be and I got into a better state after the break but then I went to the job and I got stressed out and I got overwielmed and it took me right back to the place I was before when I got out I

was in the I just want to Zen out and really not do a ton but still put the time in to make something happen so I didn't I didn't go like any type of like structure type of thing I would just spend like an hour or two here and there like it's not hard and you know take a side if you have someone to talk or reach out to but sending a bunch of messages or just reaching out to people it's really a low low amount of effort to get that going yeah yeah and and I think and it's interesting you said that because you

know I'm still at Vaca this week um but you know next week I'll be alone right and and and one thing I'm seeing is that when I don't put pressure on myself and this happened on the sales side like when I was deep at vaco and lik e selling like the joke within the Staffing industry at least at least within my team was if you want to close some deals go on vacation because like you kind of like slow down a little bit and then and then it just kind of works out and what I'm seeing with the job search is that there's good there's

a point in a day where you kind of hit a wall and you're you're becoming just brain dead and it almost hurts you more than if you just spent an hour to and and kind of chipping away at it that way so it's interesting you said that because I'm seeing that as well I'll say there is times to push and put yourself heads down don't get me wrong you know but sacrificing everything else your mental health your your balance time with your family your friends whatever the thing might be it is not worth it again I know it's scary when you don't have a job

whether you're new to the field or you're not but you're not serving yourself positively by taking yourself out of the game by you know taking care of the rest of your life and I'll be honest this is a very do as I say not as I do I'm still trying to figure that out I'm very bad at balance habits it's very difficult for me I have ADHD I'll be honest with you but I I've learned from what I did in my 20s and 30s that it was not good for my long term and making sure that I was good in all the other fronts so

let's go back to standing out specifically during the interview you know one thing I'm seeing is that I'm trying to dig into what the company is struggling with right so I'm moving into kind of this mix of sales and marketing this growth position and I'm trying to like listen to what problems they're having right the biggest problem that I'm trying to suss out with these clients is that they're having problems getting inbound leads right it's like how can I help what's my experience bringing inbound leads from so I'm trying to solve that during the interview process um what are your thoughts on that and just

any more thoughts on standing out during during the interview process so I'm really fortunate with activecampaign um it's not like a crazy large company but it is a big company and we have a really great funnel there's a little great set of recruiters there's outbound type stuff and I'm really fortunate I did not have that at my last place it was very all on me and that was on the market I felt like finally when I was hiring it was really difficult because I couldn't find people it was really hard no matter what I did and so I think as far as so if I

think for you with growth and leads honestly I think your community involvement your Reach Out style because you and I have a lot of overlapping tactics yeah I honestly think that's the way to go but then the other side is and this is not probably our maybe actually maybe for you it is I don't know you know the role better than I do is what is the company overall doing to get engaged Market get their name out there and you know like if that's not happening that is something to consider how do you do that you know in the right ways but right that if

the company really wants to build a team it is kind of a something you gotta have and again it takes time but you're trying to build a company you're trying to grow teams build teams and the only way you get there is by starting something and I think that's honestly where you're going to be really effective based on what I know about you for sure and and for you when you were interviewing for engineering manager roles I mean I mean is that something you honed in on were you out here saying like you know what what's your biggest problem or especially on this team I'm

taking over like again trying to flip the interview and I'm really big on trying to flip the interview from like question question question question to more of a conversation so how did you navigate that yeah I will say the job before it was the one first time I ever went harder than ever on my side of interviewing them and that wa s because I was a bit nervous about the product and the market fit and my role there and stuff and I asked a silly amount of questions almost to press them and challenge them or it almost felt like I was the only interviewer wasn't

coming back to me well and I I thought about that that's it I think people should ask so many questions you're almost trying to talk yourself out of the offer yeah uh you could say that yeah um I'll tell you what I can give you I had one so this is the first time this happened and I do this a lot but as the first time someone commented on it so uh you know I went through the normal like um you know meeting with like product I met with Technical and I'm totally whiffing on with the third one as all of a sudden but when

I got to the product one I found that they always typically really like me because I don't only wear the engineering lens but something interesting I had happen I can't remember the question I had talked about it way early on and I mean what I've been around talking about stakeholders and timelines and phases of a project and when I got to a future question I actually made a connection one was a correction and one was a connection back to an original question so I'm putting the story together of how these things work together even when you get individual questions and I know I'm a little

Lucky in the sense of my brain process is very fast maybe you all can pick up on it isn't talking uh my energy and all that but if you can learn to do that like I said that is putting together a much more full scope and the end of who you are and how you can solve those problems um so like the stuff that came up that was really strong there was is managing stakeholders and it doesn't really matter if your manager or not an engineer it's a little different in the level of scope um but how do you manage expectations is a good way

to boil that down or set and manage expectations how do you work with the other rules so those ones I think persona lly are what helped me stand out significantly and I think it could help a lot of people if you can drop the engineering lens keep it there as a you know multiplier or you know add-on whatever you want to call it um to show those other sets of skills like you can be the best coder in the world and maybe like Facebook and Google like that's what they care about but that's not what makes you effective especially as you go higher a senior

engineer isn't the best being a senior engineer because they're technically strong it's the other skills and then if you go my route you go stack you go principal architect that's where that stuff really starts to show and that's what you have to bring out early on and because you're showing them vision and path for where you're going to go yeah you know I compare it this just popped in my brain I compare it to comedians so the really good comedians tie in their beginning jokes at the very end to like tell the full circle story right they they make a jab at something that they

talked about earlier and bring it in um and so uh that's just what I was thinking about like how do you tie in the interview and and and and and tell the story and bring that full circle which I think is great I don't remember by the way I figured out my nugget from earlier which I think before I go but I did want to let me let me come back to that one um it's a tactic that I started it's still trying to bear fruit um well not anymore because I have a job but um in the interview just to go back to that

really quick um the other one we were talking you were asking about was the uh the question side of things in interviewing so I mostly interviews I've had recently very standard questions and they're not bad questions and what's the culture like what's you know tell me about the tech stack they're not bad questions but I found a way that I can use the questions I asked not to only prove some of my abilities but connect my experience specifically in there so uh one I like to do uh so make sure you know I'll use activecampaign they recently switched to a multi-product thing from a single

product and you know it it there is more money involved for customers and that's a difficult problem right and they could trust you and love your product but what I pushed on there was is how else are we going to get them to switch like what are these tactics we're going to do and then I bridged it back to another example that I had where we struggled to get customers to convert so I'm asking every question I'm challenging it because I want to understand it but I'm also bringing my experience back to that question because I've thought about it I've been through it and again

full story and and circle of putting those things together and it's a way to get more about you in a sense out of your story when you're asking them questions yeah absolutely absolutely um let's see here yeah comedian callbacks are a good example 100 um the full circle tie-in is something you can see a lot of Eddie lizards comedy totally agree with that yeah exactly yeah 100 uh let's see here William um Ian comes in here I'd like to ask people who interview me what do you think you want to see in your next teammate and then figure out how I can talk about those

things and interview I love that love that a lot um so as you wrap up here Dan it's pretty bad that's fine dude um I gotta give you my nudget yeah oh sorry yeah yeah go completely I got it okay so this is a new one that I was trying trying so I I do like big Tech um I like the big companies I was at one I decided for my personal it wasn't where I wanted to go but so here's a new thing that I was trying I added probably 40 50 recruiters from all the Fang big tech companies no reach outs no nothing

all I did was add them just connect and my plan and I did a little bit I didn't exactly follow through because I got a job was I was going to start producing my content again writing being on the podcast and my idea is I wan t them to see that and start getting a sense of me so that you know when I go to each other like oh yeah I saw you wrote this or you were part of this and all of a sudden like you stand out and you you have something you started to build so I'm really I think it'll bear fruit

but I haven't gotten far enough yet but I'm feeling good about it okay I wanna I wanna Park on this strategy God so I so I get goosebumps whenever something's good and I just got goosebumps nobody has talked about this other than me because this is such an amazing strategy in the power of content and targeting your audience so again for those of you who are listening Dan He specifically went after Fang recruiters he didn't send them a note just Mass connected with them then he was going to reverse engineer and create content that they would want to see based off it right that's what

I do so I spend pretty much an hour or two a day not an hour or two a day that's way too much I say 30 30 minutes a day connecting with people I just I just send invites I don't send a note and because the way that LinkedIn algorithm works that I've seen is when you connect with somebody your feed is filled with that person's content for a while until it kind of goes back into the algorithm and so if you're producing content at scale when I say at scale you know one two three four five post it down LinkedIn and that person you

connect with that person that person's gonna see Dan that person could see Taylor in their feed the entire time and then you'll be able to I call it a slow drip I don't know any better term it's a terrible term and so don't reach out to so again I think that's great again I think it goes to to Junior developers if you're a junior developer I would connect with many hiring managers as possible and just start posting and documenting your job Searcher talking about react or what you're learning again that is such an underrated strategy I'm so glad you brought that up I'm so glad

you brought that up that's great I'm feeling good that's awesome our brains our brains work similarly I do have to Shameless plug before we run out of time that I am hiring a character campaign and there is some roles open I'm looking for QA automation engineer um Centric so if you work in the automation room especially playwright but anyways I had to get that out there because I love this place and I want to build a really sick team so it's awesome I love that all right last real quick last two questions um first off Tech Trends tools technologies that you're looking at right now

that you're excited about or people should should check out hiring related or general just general just general just anything you're tinkering with that's kind of fun right now uh so we've been looking at uh GitHub co-pilot and I don't I don't code but I am very interested to see how that could be like a productivity booster and help you know people you know code more more and effectively um so that's one's been really interesting uh other I don't know I think that's kind of kind of the only thing right right now kind of like new job Focus you know it's fun um and then also

and then just the last question ask everybody um biggest piece of career advice perseverance is key I mean it's just I know it's tough um and we didn't get into this and we could talk maybe another time I know that it's the hardest probably right now for those that are getting their first job but again try different things don't just do the same thing perseverance is gonna get you get you to keep going you know talk to people like Taylor and others that are out there like it like you can get past the barrier and I can't tell you this two things on this one

you are absolutely part of this this environment this this market like don't ever feel like you're not included like you're meant to be here and we want to have you here with us um and I totally forgot the other one but that's pretty good I feel like I love it your brainer I just oh i t's like firework I love it um all right y'all well thanks again for hanging out with us today again last last guidance counselor of uh last guidance counselor show um for my time at vaco so Dan thank you for uh making it a good one I appreciate you go connect

with Dan um on Twitter um on LinkedIn again he's hiring so go check that out um and tomorrow uh 9 30 a.m Central unicorn finders my other podcast we are diving in with the company it's a ticketing company that's trying to change the landscape of ticketing using blockchain which it makes a lot of sense in the ticketing space for it so um uh come check it out tomorrow 9 30 a.m Central unicorn finders aside from that you all have a good one Dan