slowing down w/aaron nunley frmr director of engineering

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

all righty what's going on everybody happy Monday uh so uh kind of crazy today is the first guidance counselor 2.0 live um uh as as a unemployed um individual um so yeah there we go there we go actually you're talking actually two guys you know you know what the title should have been Aaron for the show is uh two unemployed nerds two unemploy a lot of time on our hands talk all day yeah yeah so so yeah this might go for six hours just kidding have an interview at 10 Central but um I want to get started early this morning because I love Aaron and

um and we're going to talk about some good stuff today and and also have a heart stop because I have an interview so I wanted to go ahead and get started a little early but if you are tuned in say hey we'd love to hear from you um again I know we are a bit early um so I'm letting people uh you know trickle in at the moment um it's good to see you meme team what's going on it's good to see you on on YouTube good we are live on LinkedIn Yolanda it's great to see you girl um so uh real quick again happy

Monday guidance couch 2.0 what is this probably like kill what is this thing so guidance comes with 2.0 was stemmed out of Coven in March of 2020.

I wanted to I wanted a way to communicate at scale to the engineering population across the country I was a recruiter my next job is not going to be in the recruiting space but I will still be a connector of people so more to come there but at the end of the day I wanted to create a platform where I could where I could basically scale my info to everybody and so that's what this show became three years later I've had a lot of amazing engineering thought leaders like Aaron on the show um and and we are going to uh have a good time but

this is also a networking platform this is turned into a networking platform please comment say hey you're probably tell what how can this be a networking platform a networking place is literally just something that happens consistently and you keep showi ng up and that's what this is I've had people literally find jobs on the show I've had people find Mentor mentees internships apprenticeships best friends so please if you are watching now in the future just drop in and say hey that's all you guys just say hey just that's it because what happens is that it brings visibility to who you are there are people who

actually Network and connect with you even after the show so again please say hey second thing is ask questions this is one time where you can get Aaron a very very senior person in Tech on the uh basically he doesn't wait my connection's broken I gotta go so uh so yeah ask questions take advantage of of Aaron um while he's here um and then um finally want to give a shout to the official coffee sponsor of the show that conference is right here I am blessed I am keynoting that conference next next month um but also too he has really good coffee beans I'm not

gonna lie so use gc2 for a few bucks off but also come to the conference in July it'll be a lot of fun all right want to give some shouts to the people before we dive in yolan again um Charmaine it's good to see you Ricardo John typeway uh RJ Angela Michael and Don John Carl my guy from Raleigh what's up buddy TS great to see you uh and Neil it's great to see you as well we got we got the crew out today all right enough of me running my mouth uh Aaron let's give the people what they want who are you uh what

do you do what did you do and what do you do now and well then we'll go from there so hi I'm Aaron I've been I've been in Texas the late 90 is a weird thing to say out loud I was a programmer for a lot of my time I mean I started off I kind of cut my teeth doing PHP websites and HTML php's back man I know it got hot again I left it when I left it when it had a bad record HP and jQuery everybody's using laravel you know we're going to be oh my everything's going to be backbone marionette in

no time it's going to be wild Dreamweaver we're just gonna bring b ack the 90s let's bring back the 90s in web dev now the other thing is could we bring back the other thing I cut my teeth on which is macromedia Flash that was a wild too I do remember recording on flash roles and that went away real fast I mean that was around I mean you know what Aaron you could say it went away in a Flash oh wow ow ow it was a fun couple years of making banner ads but I I have spent the last probably 15 years just working on

bigger bigger bigger systems larger systems uh I I kind of built my way up as a staff engineer kind of I went right around the point where I I was moving into principal territory I uh I went lateral and I I picked up leadership roles I kind of realized my leverage in organizations was better spent uh helping manage uh well all of the things that needed managing helping encouraging the humans giving guidance uh being a technical leader where I could be but usually just empowering people to get their work done um over time built up to a manager of managers uh title director but whatever

the goal here is just making enabling people by giving them the resources they need to get their jobs done sure firstly getting out of their way um I was at Eventbrite for sevenish years I've been take it in for about 10 I am unemployed by a certain amount of fate and choice at this point so it's fun I love it um so uh for those of you who are tuning in um Aaron uh uh Aaron actually got connected from a former guest on the show Brian Rutledge so Brian I know you're watching on the big screen so thank you uh for this connection um Aaron

you're you know you're I'm unemployed you're unemployed and Aaron I can tell Aaron's a leader of people because uh he sent me a Google doc about everything he wanted to talk about today it's not long but it's very organized and very concise so Aaron I can already tell you're good at your job so anybody who wants to hire Aaron please hire Aaron because if anything his uh his note-taking is fantastic uh Aaron sent m e one two three four five items and I want to talk about probably the item that he may be and maybe I could be wrong and his had probably thought the

least about but I want to talk about it because I think it's incredibly important about taking a career break and so Aaron I mean talk about this because I am taking a break-ish but also too like I find myself wanting to get back in it so talk about the intentional break that that you've taken why it's it's been a decade it's been a decade since I really didn't work for more than a couple of weeks on a vacation um I I mean there was a we've we've had vacations to their neon I realized about half of those vacations were also business trips where I like

Global yeah for weeks right Mendoza yeah I'll bring the family it'll be great uh which is fantastic but that's very different than saying we're going on a Disney cruise that's very different than like kind of sunny in a month somewhere um I I kind of looked up and and okay taking a break is also this weird place of either privilege or planning or happenstance where like you you realize that you're in a position where I I don't need to don't necessarily need to get a job tomorrow I don't need it uh in in my case it was because of a uh the exit from Eventbrite

was enough to land on my feet uh plus I've been doing this long enough that yeah I have that that cushion where I can kind of say okay take a beat well then I think I mean we could talk about that too I mean just responsible savings I mean this isn't a financial show by any means but I mean I I think there's some validity in that do I have to say I'm not a financial advisor yeah I think you have to say based on my other podcasts let's see this is not Financial advice and then you're safe and you can say whatever you want

to say definitely not Financial advice uh yeah there is something to be said about yeah savings understanding what what your Runway looks like if you treat yourself or your household kind of like a st artup understand what your burn rate is yeah how how long can you keep going um while also recognizing that yeah you're you're depleting some of your coffers but what do you get into that and that was actually the the mindset shift I had to take where I'm spending money to save sanity to build rebuild sanity uh I mean my wife and the wife and I talked about that too I mean

she goes Taylor like we're in a position right now but we're very fortunate we we sold our house at the peak of the market you know two years ago and and um in East Nashville um which is the hot side of town and and you know and and she said she was like I mean but I understand this is not a place for everybody right and I understand that but I do have to say if you do have the opportunity to take a breather take a breather so let me ask you guys what have you learned from this time or have you learned anything I've

learned that I I didn't realize this at the time I put a lot of myself into my role in several years same I put I put a uh I put too much myself frankly uh it's not to the point where it was codependent but I mean I definitely woke up and worked and worked and then went to sleep I mean life was peppered in around that sure um but getting that perspective about the things where I I kind of had worked first me second work first family second um and it was definitely Towing the line of of unhealthy which I needed that perspective from the

career break and we're talking like it took me six weeks to realize that really um changed some of the dynamic around the household with me being able to help out more practical times with kids and things like that um meeting at 10 A.M in the morning you can help out around the house a little bit you don't have a meeting at six or seven in the morning you can help out around the house that too and that was part of a we had a global organization it wasn't quite Norm but it would there was definitely a fair because you were because you and I chit-chatted

y ou were in charge of running the offshore teams or or large I had actually had teams on uh with people on four continents so I mean it was I would I wasn't sure India necessarily but we definitely had offshore and India people in North America South America and Europe um which worked out it just it took a lot of you have to be very intentional about it yeah so uh the the time off if detox is the wrong word because it's like but I like that word yeah let's let's Let it go you know uh if you if you take the sentiment of detox

yeah you let it Leach out of your system and you I started the whole the whole time off Prospect with like oh what am I going to get done what am I going to do aim what am I going to do every day I need to I need to oh there's these certifications I've been meaning on doing these half dozen books I need to do I oh I need to I need to do nothing Taylor I need to pick up myself this is what I want to talk about because I find myself I'm I mean I'm let's let's be honest the last week you're at

a job it's usually not super you know you're already starting to detach so I'm maybe oh I'm maybe six days into the process I mean this is technically my first day of unemployment but you could say the last week six days yeah I can feel like and I'm in counseling right full transparency and counseling and I've talked to my counsel about this it's like I have been pedal to the metal for 12 years yeah how do you break that up well I definitely had to be intentional about it I mean God I signed up for the half dozen AWS certification courses which I have been

doing slowly but uh I I think I had this run and Gun of like oh no I need I need to get all of those those courses taken care of I need to fill in some gaps I need to I need to start running every morning I need to no I I think that the pedal to the metal thing I had to be very intentional about I just had to go ahead and be present with whatever I was doing and I also I don't know I for me I've always been a a tight scheduler for myself but it's literally scheduling things like Leisure has worked

for me yeah um it feels like I'm forcing my it sounds so weird but forcing myself to go ahead and sit down and play video games for two hours has made a difference what's funny Wendy Wendy said PlayStation um uh and and I get I mean it's just whatever works I mean literally to me I schedule time in a workout say like at two o'clock yeah I'm gonna go because because again because I think it's a Marion of two right like I'm not saying because I'm super you and I sound very similar super regimented go go go get done and I I and it's you

can't like wake up the next day after working for 10 to 12 years and be like I'm gonna change everything like it just doesn't happen and so it's it's kind of moving into that you know my wife last night uh we were we were meal prepping and she was like how are you doing she goes do you do you have the Sunday scaries like what is it like and I kind of I kind of was like oh I don't have something scary so I was like oh wait now I do no no wait I don't like I don't need it so like again like it's

a very weird acclimation process the Sunday scariest I've ever heard that I like that um yeah I mean I I think for me I didn't know what to do right away is it coming coming out of the job I have a lot of really valuable connections I made at Eventbrite I found myself just continuing to talk to people that used to work for me honestly or people that were about to stop working for me um and still just kind of making sure that everybody's cool like this isn't my job anymore but it felt it was it was a little bit of closure for me to

help me kind of all right and help push that boat into the water they're gonna be okay so what do I do now um deprogramming yourself from from the I still would say the regimenting is helping my mental health uh yeah for the leisure time it's getting in it's getting out during the day it's it tried to I'm still here I got kids in school so it's not like I'm driving everywhere every day doing tons of stuff I I am uh I tend to do a lot more networking just one-on-one stuff with people I haven't talked to in a long time talking old bosses just

friends just going to lunch with people um it's one one part uh socialization one part food so there's a lot of that there you go I love that we have some comments coming in here I want to get to for sure Marilyn says it's also good to see you Marilyn um it's tough that that work-life balance the struggle is real for sure Joe says I left the company with no job prospect in sight exhausted my savings with the goal of HR recruiting positions only best money I've ever spent again right I mean I think you know my my dad used to work um for Outback

Steakhouse for 25 years in my hometown um that I grew up in and uh one thing I think Outback did really well um was they gave a sabbatical yeah before stay sabbatical every 10 years yep it's a couple friends that have that at their organizations like after five you get six weeks off or something yeah I mean yeah I think I I think that's needed yeah I think that's absolutely needed um Carl comes in here sometimes you need to reset agreed um reading is a great way to uh to detach even when working I love that I'm not I'm not a reader um I think

I have add my brain wanders too much um I went from uh I went from audiobooks because that was my go-to when I would drive uh to the city I would that's how I was I just realized I haven't picked up a book in a while so I yeah there you go I'm more of a coloring book type of guy um everyday scares my brother what's up dude what crazy food dish has Aaron cooked for his family God what I've been cooking oh I have been cooking like are you a cooker I mean obviously I'm a baker Chef this one are you really I asked

this question of a lot of the people that uh come through my doors for for recruiting it's it's okay money wasn't an issue what would you do Tech I think a brand had a li mited money he would go start something in the restaurant industry oh yeah I just want but that would be a fantastic life yeah I did uh Brandon I I did uh enter the the California State Fair uh entry for baking for my cookies that I that I've made uh so I'll be uh yeah I've got about three weeks so I do that what type of cookies these are uh spicy molasses

cookies okay spicy Moe's yeah they were they they had a small cult following in the San Francisco event Pride office but uh family recipe that I modified over the years and that's awesome it was one of my one of my okay or one of my like yeah I guess okay cars for the year like the jokey okr that you put in yeah like yeah I'm gonna enter my cookies in the State Fair it's the only one that matters now that I don't work for Eventbrite anymore I kept that one I love that uh Nick comes in here the mental aspects difficult to quantify but an

absolute necessity to address have you have you had any big um Revelations at all and and if not no worries I just wanted to see if if anything's you know you talked about how that you probably were diving too much into work um maybe work was too much your identities is there any other things that that is kind of uncovered during this time of Peace Stillness I guess you could say not particularly those two encapsulate there's little sub topics within that but I mean sure putting too much of yourself you don't know what too much is until you've been doing it for a while and

it's even sometimes it feels like like going to the gym whatever you can you can continue expanding Beyond yourself but I don't know I I kind of that perspective was necessary for me to understand like I that time helped me realize where my boundaries kind of got stretched over a death yeah that makes sense it's a good reset if nothing else uh it gives me a lines you know just lines on the field to look at for next time so I kind of understand is there anything that maybe that's actually a really good segue based on what you've learned right now taking time is there

any um uh I'm saying Gates I don't think it's the best word is there any um boundaries you would put in place maybe for the next opportunity and if not no worries yeah I mean with with the opportunities I'm currently talking through with with people um I would I would personally like to avoid a managed people on four continents situation I do believe in I believe in remote work I believe uh is not not one person managing four continents yeah Distributing that's uh a little better I mean don't get me wrong you can manage a couple people on one continent but having having that just

a team distributed to that level the organizational hierarchy gets gets weird real quick that is something I I would work on I think the the cognitive overhead to make sure that I wasn't overworking myself um was because I put a lot of it on on me I chose to not have my people saying up till 10 pm uh on a regular basis you try and share the load you try to make sure everybody kind of everyone suffers equally yeah I don't know but but practically speaking I I think I I'm definitely looking into that there's a main thing like let's just not do this again

I don't need to you always have to do it at some point in jobs like there's always a little bit of like go the extra mile but you can't do it for six months or a year yeah that makes sense um so so let's kind of transition a little bit to um the job search right and and what has been I mean you've taken time off but uh but you and I chatted backstage about kind of some of your your your tactics and and you and I were very similar but but talk talk about kind of the big overarching one that we talked backstage just

within all of the job hunting stuff I mean networking is number one for me I do realize that in terms of looking for jobs um my God it's it's I haven't I've had more things given to me handed to hey have you thought about this thought about this then me actively searching job bo ards or um I have been working with recruiters with a friend recruiter so to speak there's people I know that know me uh so that networking aspect has been a the key just because you said you have not had to write your resume I have not written my resume I am I

am a I don't know why am I just stubborn is that all it is Taylor I don't I I mean I've been very blessed I haven't had to use my resume during this during the I mean when we're at the start still but you know I I haven't had to use it I think if you're doing it I don't want to say if you're doing it correctly because I think you can do it correctly still with a resume if that makes sense but like I think if if you are if you are a networker or you are networked in doing it without your resume truly

shows that you have the network I am recognizing this is a another talk about place of privilege yeah there's there's a lot of connections here the thing to be clear I have about a four-page resume which is twice as long as it needs to be uh I've been paring it down uh when necessary but I haven't again I haven't really sent it out one where it was a precondition I will say though preconditions if you find yourself in an interview panel especially interviewing hopefully with people that you don't know a resume is a is a roadmap for them they they that's true they do I

mean especially there are times where you will find yourself being asked to do an interview in two hours on something who is this person they're not going to figure out who you are that's not going to do anybody any good so having that resumes kind of required at a certain point I'm in the having conversations with hiring managers and yeah the senior leaders some organizations I think I again I get to skip a little bit of that right now it's not going to last forever but yeah I I didn't dive into resume right away it was painful to go ahead and reduce you know half

decade of impact into a few bullet points talking about Roi and efficacy I did it feel s so deluded yeah no that makes sense I mean so you know we I obviously bring a lot of June more Junior people on the show um you know and it's very obviously the Tactical side of things but when you're in leadership man what does that look like from a networking perspective like did you I mean I do did you just make one post that you left a vamp right and then everything poured in are you just like randomly going through your phone book when you're like playing video

games when there's a break in the video games like hey we should chat tomorrow like what is what does networking look like for a director of engineering right now okay so I made the post on LinkedIn I I that was one of the first things I did was I kind of tried to gather my feelings sure I I split it into two posts because it was too long I didn't know LinkedIn had a Content link so I I uh novel well it's it's useful to have the informational one okay I'm not here it's okay everybody we're on the same it's gonna be fine like that

that sort of let's let's call him the waters one and then my second one really was uh was more of the Gratitude post because I I oh that I owe the people I work with a lot uh and it from there it turned into all of a sudden I'm getting iMessages from people I used to either I used to work with or for people used to work for me and it's a little bit of like hey we haven't talked in a couple years what are you doing hey I moved to move to your area let's go get some coffee things like that um so uh

that that's what a lot of it was but the the other thing uh networking I I got involved in there's a slack group called uh or Michael Lop Brands he runs uh management slack group um which I've been a part of God's got like six thousand people in it and yeah it's a rand's leadership slack for anybody who's interested in joining uh it's been a fantastic resource while on my break the first channel I joined was called Pro Leisure circuit just a series of people who are just on breaks and I joined the video games Channel and the keyboards Channel and a few of the

management craft stuff uh it's been nice to talk to just other leaders yeah and and so that that's a little bit of it so some of it some of some new people some of it's uh there's a the people come out of the Woodworks that you you used to work with somebody liked working with me it's uh yeah it does give you the warm and fuzzies to get that call yeah and I think you know one of the things that I stress a lot is when you get into an organization your networking doesn't stop like that's probably when you almost need to double down more

on networking I mean would you I mean based off your nod in your head you would agree with that but I mean talk about because because it pays off now right I mean it like good people want to work with good people yeah absolutely so you really need to double down on that yeah I mean the networking stuff God I mean I I one thing I was better at was kind of connecting with cross-functional people I don't know people in um not necessarily the engineering function I knew everybody in the engineering at Eventbrite but it was uh working with got AI when I was at

as a director I met more sdrs all the sales representatives from various companies but I mean I was hearing from them about opportunities at their organizations that they were sales people for like hey we can that's an interesting one like people who have bought software from are now like oh they remember me during the procurement process the implementation process all those things you can get you you can definitely get noticed there conferences are a thing I am a I'm an extrovert introvert uh and if you've ever seen me at a conference I'm here for I'm here to talk I realize that it takes me a

while to kind of connect talk to people I was at re invent this last year and I had to man I felt like the kid at the first day of school like at least some of these like local community-run engineering you know like ye ah I mean momentum in Cincinnati or Magnolia Json like that that circuit there's a little easier because there's kind of the same people maybe you could go into these corporate comp these corporate conference like reinvent or you know these massive ones like it it is a first it is a lot it's a lot a lot exactly and I'll tell you though

my the my most of my connections came from going to the the lunchroom the catered lunch and sit at a table with 10 people yeah anybody want to eat in silence that's um so uh let me see here um as we wrap up here I mean obviously um I mean we're just you know obviously you know grazing the surface of all this stuff um is there any other kind of tips or tricks um to to job Seekers right now or even other hiring managers right now yeah I mean okay there's a there's a few things here there uh for me there there's always a bit

of an emotional rollercoaster when you're looking for jobs uh I had a an old a foreign mentor of mine uh talking about not falling in love with job opportunities don't fall in love with candidates also is a thing he had told me when uh I was a hiring manager on things and it's so true you'll find jobs that feel perfect like and they feel perfect to you you're the perfect candidate for the job as far as you're concerned you're the perfect you're the right fit you have everything and it just you don't get passed around don't you have to let it slide off it's good

to get feedback about it if you can it's good to understand where that disconnect between you and that may have been um but there is an emotional roller coaster you kind of have to be sealed for it sometimes and falling in love with that job before you've gotten through the rounds is it's hard also it can definitely flavor your uh flavor of the interviews themselves if you're rude to go and also it'll affect your negotiation process if you do get to the point where you're at an offer you love the opportunity to work there you find yourself you're you can occas ionally do yourself a

disservice because you're looking at the opportunity with rose rose tinted lenses so there's that yeah I mean that's something I talk about and people confuse this I'm I when I usually say when you get an offer you should be questioning it so much you're trying to talk yourself out of the offer and I can I get people they're like well you wait you're telling me to like reject the offer no no I'm just saying you need to be you need to be you need to be critical thinking right and and um and I'm even challenging myself to that too and I'm sure you are as

well as we're because because I don't know about you I like I'm the over emotional guy right so like commercials especially during Christmas with Hallmark commercials like that's me like I get super attached like that's I'm like all or nothing right so for me it's been kind of an interesting Journey as I start interviewing this comes like oh my gosh I love this oh my gosh I love this person oh my gosh I love this company it's like like bro it's like dating all over again you need to chill chill out yeah and yeah it's uh I like the critical lens you have to look

at it that way and anybody who's been in this game long enough will have that moment where you've accepted a job too quickly I've done this twice really you regret it for years you are catching up for years on comp and I mean you can you can get there but man it's a lot so uh yeah falling in love doesn't do you any good there um for some people I know that application tracking uh is a super useful thing especially for you know some people do it at the career who are applying to a lot of places when you when you're dealing with I I've

heard from people uh coming into uh Eventbrite like I applied to 200 places like oh hell you keep track of 200 places I mean I mean you uh someone told me just treat it like a sales straight like you are the SDR it's a sales thing use a sales CRM with the connections there's a ton of free ones out there yeah i t just helps you keep track of everything you will lose your mind otherwise be deliberate about calendar calendar in your life yeah that's that's something that I believe and and and and to be honest I haven't done the greatest job up this this

time uh I've I know I've missed out on some opportunities because I I it's again I'm blessed the opportunities have come at me but it's I I didn't do a good enough job being intentional from that perspective so I agree like you got to be that and then the other phone one my friend is uh as always imposter syndrome I've been doing this more than two decades and I still wonder who's gonna yeah really me me have a job again yeah it's fine it's it is a constant thing uh I was definitely at the top of my game in certain aspects I think just acknowledging

that just because you're yeah you know learning in other aspects does not mean you're an impostering you're just this is the this is the growth curve everybody goes through allow yourself that Grace to be missing an aspect of a job requirement like have it you can have everything but you're missing like 20 take it just run with it um all right last question as we wrap up here so this show is called guidance counselor 2.0 for a reason we had guidance counselors in middle school high school and college but now as adults we don't really necessarily have them what would be your biggest piece of

to my younger self my God I am that old I actually you know what it's pretty this this one is directly related to the thing we just talked about the falling in love with opportunities and diving in because you it's a little bit For the Love of the Game uh instead of everything else I I've never been a person to jump jobs every two or three years which is a common enough strategy to go ahead and build build your brand build your wealth um but I I definitely have spent too long at places for for my because I was in love with it uh because

I had I had grown acclimated to I don't know let's say som e of the negatives in an organization uh or I felt like I was acting in defense of the people that I worked with or things like that so the falling in love thing same place is too long accepting offers too quickly uh being able to remain uh a few steps back uh is the thing that I I'm getting better at it hopefully constantly getting better at it um but oh man if I could have known this in my early 20s it would have made all the difference for my career I love that

I love that um well Aaron thanks again for hanging coming on buddy I appreciate it um stay on Backstage so I can say bye to you but everybody who tuned in today thank you we obviously had a crew out today go connect with Aaron um and uh man I appreciate you thanks for the convo and uh I'm sure we'll talk again soon all right thanks so much that