practicing what we preach w/ eng manager julian dasilva

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

It's good to people what they want, man. Who are you? What do you do? And we'll go from there. Yeah, happy New Year, everybody. Well, I'm obviously Julian. I'm an engineering manager now for a misfits market. Just switched over at the end of October. So still in those first kind of 90 days, I think I broke 60 days like last week or something officially. And so you know, I just went through job search and kind of changing jobs. It looked a little different from what a, I imagine a lot of people have probably gone through or going through, but still useful information, nonetheless, a lot of onboarding.

I've been doing learning a whole bunch of new stuff. So I think that's what I'm about right now is learning a whole bunch of new stuff. I love it. So, so when you and I caught up, the last few minutes, we really started to get very practical with our conversation about interviewing all that stuff. I kind of want to go through your story, man. And obviously you went through the job search change in October, very fresh. you know, talked about obviously, you know, practicing what we preach. How did you approach it, man? Like I guess how did I go down and maybe some good tips and tricks that you learned and maybe some things that you learned that you won't do again?

Yeah, I think, you know, it was somewhat short. I, you know, I still had my job. I wasn't like laid off or something. So it may be a little different from some of the scramble that people have dealt with. I'm very fortunate there, but I think once I decided that I was going to look, I think the first thing I did was actually reach out to a lot of the people in my network, right? Like called old friends that I've worked with, you know, all the old coworkers, you know, that they've gone to new companies like, hey, you know, are you guys by chance looking for an engineering manager or like director level person or anything like that, you know, just reached out to people and just saw what they thought, you know, and see what they were thinking and, you know, kind of put my ear to the ground on what other companies were doing because I've been at my last job for four and a half years.

So it's kind of like, I keep my head on the ground all the time. I network a lot on LinkedIn and I've done networking for pretty much as long as I've been working. So now I had a good pulse on what things look like, but it's one thing to keep your head on the ground and actually being in it, swimming in it, so to speak. Yeah. So I definitely reached out to people first. And then I kind of just looked at my resume, got that spruce stuff, did kind of the typical, Let me go through some of the motions of practicing some interviews looking at you know what interviews Look like in some other places that are available and from there I just you know kind of reached out got a referral to a few places cold applied to a few places I didn't spend a ton of my time cold apply.

Yeah, I was gonna ask did did those go anywhere at all? They did so actually the job I ended up landing at misfits market was a cold apply You're kidding me. Look at that. Everybody's gonna call me hot. See Taylor. Yes, it happens Well, that's why I always say like, you know, definitely cold apply right like you want to have you know, uh, You know bait in as many pools as you can right? I mean it you don't want to not not do cold applying You don't want to like not network like you don't want to fully focus on one thing. I think I think One thing that worked really well and what ended up getting me some interviews is think I had four to five interviews total that ended up going past like just like the phone screen.

Yeah. Actually talked to a person you know on the camera and four out of those five were either referrals or me directly reaching out to somebody through LinkedIn. Actually one of them funny enough I had a cold apply to and it looked really interesting and then I got a rejection email like almost instantly. Like I mean, it took like 30 seconds or something. It's like, okay, that was weird. Yeah. Reached out to the, I found that the hiring manager on the post on LinkedIn on like the job board reached out to them directly. I was like, Hey man, like I think I'd be a great fit.

You know, you guys are doing some really interesting stuff. I'd love to work with you. You know, here's what I'm about. Boom. And then he's like, Hmm weird. They realized there was actually some kind of bug on their job board outing. And it was like, he was curious why they were getting so few applications. And so just reaching out, you know, I reached out as the first person to reach out, they noticed the bug and you know, I got the first one. Unbelievable. That's cool. That's cool. So, all right. So break it down real quick. So, all right, hi, you don't have any exact numbers.

So out of your job search, what percentage was like actual interviews that came in, what percentage were cold applies versus like in network? I Want to do that split yeah, I mean I I think Good interviews like I probably had like something like 12 total like phone calls like screens sure most of those didn't go anywhere Probably typical like I think that's very common nowadays that a recruiter calls you up is like yeah super excited Pumpchup and then just like you know disappears sure um I think I got two phone screens that were called applies And then the misfits, the job that I ultimately took was a cold apply.

And then the other like eight or nine were all just either referrals or I reached out to somebody or, you know, one thing I really liked to do, I liked this time was I reached out to recruiters in my network specifically was like, Hey, what do you got? Here's what I'm about. Here's what I'm looking for because I worked for a mission driven company before. And I really wanted to stick with that because I really enjoyed that a lot. enjoyed that a lot. Yeah. And so I reached out to some of them and was like, Hey, here's what I'm about. Here's what I like to do.

You know, what do you got for me out there? Like you have anything that may be aligned with that. And that actually got me three or four of those calls. Okay, interesting. All right. So, so cold apply, set you up with a few. Yeah, like 30% right? Yeah, reach out to recruiters cold and be like, Hey, here's what I'm about, what do you have? Was that maybe another 30% too? Sounds like? Yeah, I'd say it was like 30 and then 40% were just straight up referrals. Like friends that work at different companies. That's awesome. Getting me an interview. I love that. I love that. So what are some other observations or maybe some things you learned that you want to share with people who are watching today about the job search?

Like any just general thoughts? I think the market's really brutal, But at the same time, there's a lot of things that can distinguish you. One thing I noticed that a lot of people are doing, especially at like my level, like, like, you know, director level, manager level, very like too much focus on technical things. I think everybody's always trying to like polish the technical, you know, I'm, you know, the technical goat, so to speak and whatever it is, realm that you specialize in. And, you know, it matters. Like, don't get me wrong. Like it definitely matters to be good at your craft, but there's a lot of other things, you know, that I think set you apart.

And it's not just for managers. I think that's even more true for individual contributors because so many people know so many languages, right? And there's so many frameworks being used. Like if you go to a job order and there's like a hundred different frameworks being used for just JavaScript, you know, it's like, it's like, yeah, like you need to know JavaScript. Maybe you don't need to know the 50 different frameworks for JavaScript, but maybe you need to know three or four really well. And you need to understand how they differ from the other 46 or whatever. That matters a lot. And a lot of the soft skills matter a lot.

Like, I think the thing that made me stand out is less my specific technical knowledge and more my networking and mentorship skills. A lot of my leadership opinions, I guess, made me stand out. And I think the same is true for an individual contributor, right? Because it's easy to prove that you can program, right? They're going to put you through coding assessment. Right. And once you nail that, it's like, what's going to actually nail you the interview or the job, ultimately, is all the other soft skills. Like, are you somebody that learns continuously, right? Like, are you somebody that understands how to work with other people?

How to like, collaborate cross-functionally with people that maybe don't speak the same languages you so to speak. Sure. Things like that. I think that really sets you apart. What? Um, do you think you have a magic sauce when it comes to the job search and if so, what is it? Um, I don't know that there's a magic sauce. Really good at. I, you know, it's funny because somebody reached out to me the other day on LinkedIn and we actually, I forward them to a hiring manager at my current job and got them an interview. And the thing that they had that stood out to me was hustle.

Like I think that's my magic sauce is hustle. Like I just work hard and hustle, you know, like I get out there, I talk to people, you know, it's like the door to door salesman mentality to looking at work or working in software. Did you have, how did you set up your days, right? I'm very fascinated with time blocking, especially in the job search, how you keep yourself fresh again, I went through it in July. That was a huge learning experience for me. You know, I was out here. I'll say it until I die. I was out here saying the job search should be eight hours a day.

You should approach it like a real job and holy shit, it burnt me out. So, so I'm curious if you, how did you structure your days? Yeah, I mean, I was still working full time and I was still very busy. I always keep myself very busy at every job. So I was working my job for eight to 10 hours a day. And then in the evenings, I would always block out two hours. And I would spend two hours doing three things. I would call the apply to my goal was five jobs a night. I love that. I called apply to five jobs. And when I say five, that doesn't sound like a lot.

If you're like spam clicking, you know, one click apply or whatever on multiple job boards. But I was like looking for companies that aligned with me, aligned with my skill set, something I'd be interested in. And I, you know, wrote a good cover letter, you know, changed my resume a little bit, some of the words like highlighted certain keywords, you know, removed fluff so that my resume is a little bit more concise for that particular job. It really puts some effort into the five applications, the cold applications. Spent the rest of the time, probably just researching and spending a little like prep time. And I'd say it's probably an hour of like looking, you know, cold applying, reaching out to some people in LinkedIn, and than an hour of studying, studying for the interviews, getting back brushed up on interview type questions that they'll ask you.

I love that. I love that. When, what are some things, some observations that you saw with people interviewing? I know you said, obviously, kind of people harping on the tech skills a lot and how you think that's maybe not the most important. Is there any other observations and things that you saw during your job search recently that you wish you could fix or that you want to maybe help people not do what you did potentially. You know what I mean? Yeah, I was super worried because it'd been a long time since I'd actually been interviewed. And I didn't realize like how much, you know, practice you get from interviewing people.

Right. As much as you get from being interviewed. So I was like surprised at how well that went, I guess. And I was hyper fixated, I think, on looking up, engineering manager interviews, what do they look like now? Because here's what mine looks like, but that might be really different. And I studied all those things. I don't think I got a single question that I studied. And every interview is a little different. And what I realized, I was so hyper fixated on this broad T1 company interviewing, and T1 being like Facebook meta, the gang type type folks. I just said Facebook and another same person, but whatever.

Okay, 24. We're so we're so taking a couple of words. We're shaking it off. Yeah. And I hyper fixated on that. And I probably shouldn't have. I probably should have spent more time learning about the specific companies. The people that were interviewing me because I always do that. But I probably didn't spend as much time on that. And I think that will guide the interview questions they're gonna ask. And it'll help you understand what they're looking at. that would talk to let's break that down a little bit more right and again for those of you commenting it's wonderful also if I don't post your comment I'm not getting it.

There there is a little bit of a sink issue with LinkedIn. So if you commented and I have not thrown it up yet. It's because I have not seen it also I just got a shout out as well. Or not shy a notification from stream yard that X if you're watching this on X You can now comment and it shows up in the comments now. So Jamon, thanks for watching So anyways, yeah Talk to me about Knowing about the person researching the person because I've been pretty loud on this but I'm I'm curious your thoughts and why that is so important In hindsight, yeah I think, so, you know, with Misfits, I did this really well, and I think I really did crush the interviews because of it, is I looked at what the current managers, directors, even the CTO, like really dove into their history, the VP who was, you know, who's my boss, like looked at their backgrounds was like, you know, what are, what are these guys good at?

like what are these people really good at or seem really good at based on their career history and what they talk about maybe on LinkedIn and things like that. And that kind of, you know, push me to understand that, you know, okay, they're looking for somebody, you know, in this particular job is like, okay, they're looking for a more back-end focus person, looks like they've got a rock star as far as like front end goes and design already in place, you know, my counterpart engineering manager is like a rock star, work for DreamWorks, you know, just crazy awesome guy. And so it's like they really are looking for what I already had.

And specifically, I think they were looking for more structure to be brought in, because it sounded like the team was kind of built from multiple teams, you know, and really needed some structure. So I think highlighting, you know, processes that I implemented in smaller teams or different teams that were successful and kind of like wrangling chaos really made me stand out. And I think that I only got that information from looking at the people and not necessarily looking at the job listing. I love that. I love that. Yeah. And again, I mean, I think Julian makes a great point here. I think I think you have to.

I think building rapport and reading through the lines when it comes to researching the people for the interview, I think is very is never talked about, never talked about. And also to join did you somehow prep it all like with the job description like so I call it like a sizzle summary Which is a little different than elevator pitch or sizzle summary in my opinion is like if somebody asks you like hey What do you know what have you done in your career basically trying to tailor to the job that they're hiring for? Did did you do any prep yourself for the job that you were interviewing for and try to maybe like write some ideas down to remember because that's something I talk about a lot, but again, I don't know how practical that is.

That's why I'm asking. I think it's very practical. Like I did that for every single interview I did, even for the phone screens. I always look at the job listing and after like I do my research, I create a profile on each job. And this is maybe overkill, but you know, I didn't get that many interviews and I was trying to, you know, I wasn't going for high volume. I was going for precision here. So I build a profile on the company on the company and I actually think about many scenarios that have happened to me in previous jobs. I write them down as best as I can remember them and kind of highlight, it kind of ends up being word solid at the beginning and then I kind of concise it down into a few bullet points that I can reference during the interview.

I think that helped me a ton because it's just recalling some of those stories, events that have happened, helps a ton when they ask you the kind of behavior or have you ever been in a situation like XYZ, you know, and how did you handle it? It's like, yeah, you just thought about that right before I got on this call with you, you know, helps a lot to have some of those stories fresh because then when you're able to confidently talk about them, you know, they might have happened two, three years ago, but that confidence in the answer, I think helps a lot. I love that.

We got a few comments on TikTok right now. Soa Beauty Company comes in talking about just everything we're talking about. You know, I research every role I'm aware of the company, their values for the job description. Then I go through my current role to see what stories I can share to demonstrate experience and don't forget to ask behavior based questions. And she was like, definitely not overkill with what you did. So I love that. Want to get to, there was a comment up here early from Dominic. Hey, Julian, how's your first 90 days been so far? What's been a notable good point and problem point?

You know, I'm curious that you asked this down because we were going to transition. I think this is a great transition about onboarding. Join what are your thoughts on this? Yes, actually my new boss Justin the VP at Misfits recommended a book the first 90 days It's called the first 90 days update and expanded proven strategies for getting up to speed faster and smarter by Michael Watkins So a $15 book I think on Amazon very good. Um, it talks about the first 90 days It does have a more like leadership focused approach, but it is kind of for everybody And I think especially in engineering in general, but software engineering, especially There's a lot of overlap between a technical leader and an individual contributor.

So it's a great book I've been using that to help me on board think the biggest thing is like two two big bullet points is one If you were hired you were hired for a reason right like you're being hired because you're bringing an outside perspective You've got the new guy cheat code as I call it when you come to a new job Where you are a fresh perspective on everything that they've been doing and that allows you to provide valuable insights to them about their processes in the way that they do things that they otherwise can't have because they're biased, right? Like they're biased because they've been in it.

So fresh perspective is good. But I think the danger of that is people go into that a little too, they lean into that a little too heavily and they just kind of copy and paste everything from their previous role into their new role. And it's like trying to put a square Lego break into the circle hole, you know, like it doesn't fit all the time. It's good to learn from your experiences. It's good to bring that forward. I think it's important to focus a lot on what that new company does, the specific atmosphere, environment, people, processes, really spend the first, my first 60 days was spent really learning, learning about the company, learning about the people, talking a lot to different people, talking to different stakeholders, really understanding who they all are as people and how they all actually work together because a documented process or a documented way of working isn't always how it shakes out in reality.

So read lots of documentation, it's great. But make sure you're getting out there and looking at the practicality of everything. I love that. I love that. Kind of going through some more questions or just comments here. Steven, this is going back to what we were talking about, researching the company. As a recruiter, anyone that does any level of research screams they are interested in the company and gives everyone. Yeah, I would, I would 100% agree to this. Um, join. I'm curious your thoughts as an engineering leader as well and somebody who went to the job search. What are your, what are your thoughts on this?

I mean, yeah, that's a, I feel like you have to, right? Like there's too many people in the pipeline nowadays, so to speak to, you know, you have to do everything you can, like that level of hustle and research makes you stand out, uh, specifically the person that reached out to me, that she reached out to for a data scientist position that was open. She has no idea if I'm actually in charge and I'm not in charge of that department, but you know she reached out, she had a certain level of hustle, her message read like she really liked the job, liked the mission, really aligned with it.

And whether that's reality or not, the message came across really well and I was compelled to find whoever was in charge of that job listing at my you know my company reach out to them and say, Hey, I think this is someone you should at least take a look at. Yeah, guys, guys and gals. I just, I want to reiterate here for everybody who's watching across all platforms for streaming on right now, it doesn't take a lot to stand out. It really does not take a lot. And, and, and I think, I think some of the most underrated things in the interviewing process, I think is research, I think is energy.

Joanna, I'm kind of curious, how, how, how was, how was your energy levels during an interview? And like, like, did you find yourself exhausted, having to exert? because I feel like people don't talk about that. And the energy that you have to bring in the focus since you have to bring an interview can zap the living daylights out of you. Yeah, that's why I think applying to too many things at once or taking on too many interviews at once is not great. I did that one time. I had four interviews and one day I thought I was going to die. Yeah, because you want to give your, you want to give 160% in the interview, right?

You do. And I definitely bring a lot of energy. And I'm trying to latch on to every little bit of information that I can to try to like formulate a better answer. And, you know, I come with like a list of questions written down in that little profile that I want to ask. And some of them get answered throughout the talk or some of them get modified. And so it's like, you know, paying close attention and kind of, I don't know, building a connection with the person. I'm like a very extroverted, you know, people person. I like to talk and get to know them. I almost always end up talking about something totally non-work related just to see if, you know, how the person is.

Like, who is this person? Like, who are they really? You know? Yeah. Let me ask you this. Yeah, Dominic, I would just not recommend it whatsoever. For me, I think one of the things I talk about a lot, Joan, I'm curious of your thoughts, is I know you had a job, but the mental game is so important in the interview process. And if you jump in the interview process after you got laid off without taking time for yourself and kind of healing a little bit, you're not gonna be 100%. And I think I see that time and time again where people kind of just jump back into the job search because they're angry or mad and then they realize nothing's panning out.

It's because their angerness and their negativity is all over their face and all over the interview. Thoughts on that? Yeah, I agree. I mean, I was very fortunate, right? I was looking for a job while having a job and I don't know that that's always the case. But yeah, I think if you have the luxury to take a step back, take some time to re-evaluate. Because that's what I did, right? I did have that luxury because I had a job. I had a paycheck coming in still. So they were to take a step back and say, what do I really want out of my career?

Where do I want to go? I kind of had a come to Jesus moment, if you will, of like, what do I want to be doing with my life for the next four years now? Really thinking about that. And I think that helps and just, you know, realigning yourself, you know, walking away from kind of that stress, the pain, whatever that you went through your previous job, especially if you're getting laid off and kind of breaking that connection, not bringing that, you know, that negative energy forward is important, right? Because these are new people, new companies, you know, they may be similar, but they're not the same, you know, right?

So don't bring that like bad juju with you. Yeah, and you know, for me, I mean, that's something that I had to do, leave my last company. And I definitely sat down, I was like, okay, I left a company that I was at for 12 years. Now's the chance for me to refine myself and really focus on what I want. And so for me, it was small company, probably like Series A, Series B, you know, somebody who had a very little mark, a very little marketing team, almost no social media presence. Somebody who had very little community outreach, like these are the things that I specifically pinpointed and found at Gun.io.

And so that's why I want to encourage everybody to really take the time because Julian, it sounds like you had some pretty good key things that you want in your next job. And it sounds like you, you, you check those off in your next opportunity, at least of now. So that's huge. Yeah, Abraham comes in, I'm introversive, but I pushed and found a way to connect with the interviewer on a personal level. Yeah, again, I mean, I think pacing yourself with interviews, I think is important, especially if you're an introvert, you can't go for long periods of time. Marie comes here, taking some time to take care of ourselves is so key, 100% again, something we don't talk about.

Our entire kind of culture is go, go, go, and sometimes you can slow down. You get more done. Join as we wrap up here, time flies when we're having fun. You just always bring bring the heat every time, man. Talk to me just any last thoughts, words of wisdom, whether it's interviewing or onboarding or job search right now. I just kind of want to leave it for you before we go into our rapid fire questions. Yeah, I think, you know, bettering yourself is always a good step to take. And, you know, don't spend too much time focused on what, on all the noise, I guess.

There's a lot of noise in here's the best way to land and interview. Here's the best way to like interview. And here's all the best questions to study for. There's a lot of noise in that I think that's not that useful. And I think you should focus on making sure you understand the job that you're applying for, the role you're applying for, the company you're applying for first and foremost. And making sure it's going to be the right fit because even once you land a job, I think people focus so much on landing the job that they forget that they have to be successful in that job.

I saw a lot of people that, you know, they landed a job and then they were, you know, thinking. Yeah. Because it wasn't really for them. They just kind of hopped in. And so I think it's important to focus on that. So now having a good onboarding plan, once you start that book is a great one. I like Jocko Willings podcast. He's a former Navy SEAL, he's turned, you know, public speaker and he's got extreme ownership is very good. buy that and pragmatic programmer got a 20th anniversary edition in 2019. So it's not the 1999 one anymore. If you're an engineer at any level, you should read that book.

It's very, very good. And they're all pretty cheap. And there's lots of like, you know, cliff notes types websites out there that summarize them if you know, you don't want to buy the book. So I love it. So last few questions and I don't remember what we talked about last time so I know other people won't either. First off, what do you like to do outside of work for fun? My favorite thing is probably playing tennis. Nice. Okay. I like playing tennis and playing tennis for a long time. And video games. I definitely like my video games, which is weird because I spent so much time on the computer already, but, you know, So different.

So I must say this. So I got an Nintendo switch for Christmas. I asked for I asked for a gaming console because I am always streaming, always social media, always working, just always, always, always, and I don't really have something in like my rest was on my phone, which still is not so like I needed kind of a something that can like play during the day to rest my mind. And I've seen multiple people on Twitter get a Nintendo switch because you can go on the move, which is important to me. For had that break. So I play FIFA soccer big fan. And so yeah, I love it.

I definitely needed an outlet during the day. That's like 15, 20 minute break. So so let me ask you this then. If money was the same, I added this question since we spoke. If money was the same, what would you do as a job outside of tech? Probably just talk to people all day. For real, like just podcasts or something like that. Yeah, I love it. Even even even simpler than that, just like drive around and just talk to people. Just pull into a Starbucks and just like spark conversations with people. I don't know why I love doing it. My wife get, I drive my wife crazy with it actually anywhere we're going.

We're standing in the store in the line in the store and I just like spark a conversation. We end up staying there for five, 10 minutes after the groceries are paid for just talking to somebody. It's. I don't, I love doing that love talking to people love learning new things from new people and hearing about all different types of folks that are out there. I love that. I love that. Yeah, a few people Abraham got one and so did Marie look at us and myself That's crazy three people on a stream all got switches Nintendo you're welcome Third question is again. I'm out of practice.

I'm trying to think for a second What would be your biggest piece of career advice to your younger self I when I was young I had a big ego and I think yeah, huge huge. Too huge. It definitely got in the way. I think he said too huge. I love that. Yeah, no, I was I was a menace. So it's like, you know, I was always like a big fish in a little pond, I think, for a long time. And it definitely got to me. And I just I needed to have a bit of a fall or like understanding that, Oh, wow, I'm not really like the number one and everything like I think I am.

And just embracing other people's ideas, embracing other people's, you know, criticism better. Just like learning how to collaborate with people better. You know, playing in the sandbox a little nicer was huge. So I think if I would have done that earlier, it would have been probably be much further than I am now, but I'm happy with where I'm at. That's for sure. I love that. All right, here's a new question I'm gonna ask probably for the month of January with all my guests. We'll wrap it up here. What is one New Year's resolution that you are going to try to keep this year? I'm not saying you're gonna keep it, no one's perfect, But what's one thing that you're pretty dead set on trying to stay consistent with?

Uh, gardening. I want to learn how to garden more. You're my wife. My wife, man. Yeah. I started doing some more around the house to like spruce up the front and the backyard a little bit. So I'm like getting really into it, you know, like dropping seeds, making the lawn look really nice, you know, getting some little shrubs. I love it. I'm trying to stick to that one. That's my new year's resolution. I love it. That's awesome. That's awesome. All right, y'all. Well, Julian, stay on real quick. Second body you off air. again. Thanks y'all for hanging out with us on the first episode back for 2024.

Guys, it's coming up 2.0. Tomorrow, we'll have Michael Hale on the show. Michael Hale is another repeat guest he was on recently as well. Just an amazing conversation, not really about jobs or stuff, more about life and being confident in who you are. So that's tomorrow. It's going to be great. Thursday's unicorn finers. We're going to do our 2023 year in review of startups that we interviewed and then Friday I'm going to be live, just me, myself and I talking about the 15 things that I I learned in 2023. So again, thank you all so much for hanging out with us today. Shout out to render ATL.

Go check them out. Be at the conference this year. Use a code GC 2.0 for some few bucks off. Otherwise, y'all have a good one. Julian, I appreciate you, my guy. Keep crushing it. And we'll see everybody soon. Hey, you did it. You listened to an entire episode and I am very grateful. Cause you know why? There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of episodes and I myself rarely finished an entire episode. So I appreciate you so, so much for listening. Quick reminder, please rate and review this podcast in the App Store. I want this to be discoverable to others. And the only way that happens is if you take the time right now and rate and review it.

Please, like right now, unless you're driving, then don't do it. So thank you again, if you need to reach out to me at T.S. and on all social media handles. And I hope you have a fantastic day.