the state of devrel and recent job search thoughts w/ sam julien

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

all right so we're live that doesn't mean anything yet so let's see here last thing I want to do is get started and then I gotta do it all over again because linkedin's being stupid all right hold on all right so I'm waiting on Linkin all I got the notification on YouTube and still nothing on LinkedIn what's up everybody good morning if you are watching on YouTube please comment I'm still waiting for it to hit LinkedIn ah there it is cool all right we're live what's going on folks good morning happy Tuesday um uh I got in and I got to bed at 1:00 am

last night from a beer league ice hockey game and then my daughter proceeded to wake up about the time I was falling asleep and then I was up early so but I've had I've had some caffeine so so this is going to be completely unhinged it's going to be great but Sam uh very excited to hang out with you today uh so I've admired Sam for a while on Twitter and I think that's the power of tech Twitter I saw some people bashing Tech Twitter as of late and just what toxic yada y but listen I mean I think I think Tech Twitter single-handedly um

uh made friends for me in the tech industry and Sam is one of them so I'm blessed to have him on the show so Sam thank you for coming on me I appreciate it yeah thank you I'm so excited I feel like uh this has been a couple of years in the making so really excited I m the feeling is definitely mutual I've definitely been watching you and interacting with you for the last couple of years and it's been it's been so fun to watch everything that you've been working on means a lot man um so before we dive in few housekeeping things is always

first off say hey we'd love to hear from you um uh this is a networking platform is what I've kind of realized last six months this is a place where you can like watch some tech ask some questions with some really highly qualified people and not get build for it network with people in the DMs like it's kind of this cool little ecosystem that I've created and so I want you to take advantage of it so please comment we're not in the metaverse yet right we don't have our Apple vision Pro goggles except guidance counts are 2.0 in the metaverse would be pretty freaking sick

but we're not there yet so the only way to know if you're watching is if you comment right and I'm telling you I've had people show like if we talk about networking and Sam we not gonna talk about this too with his later jobst like networking is just about showing up staying consistent like Richie my guy Richie's in Atlanta whenever I'm in Atlanta I'm hitting up Richie right Richie coming to Atlanta in June let's hang out right so it's like I know Richie Richie and I've never met in person but Richie engages with my consistently and I know him right and so again show up

say would love to hear from you I've had people find jobs on the show apprenticeships on the show mentors on the show so again if you're not commenting you're missing out um next thing is ask Sam questions again um Sam's a wealth of knowledge we're gonna talk a little devil talk a little job search talk a little bit about all of it so if you have questions please throw it up in the comments I will get to it um also too linkedin's been a little buggy if you throw up a comment and I don't I try to throw up every single person's comment if I

don't throw up your comment for whatever reason it mean it doesn't it means I don't see it so I'm not trying to like gatee keep comments here I just want to let you know um second thing third thing I want to celebrate you this morning I feel like we as individuals move on to the next thing right I got the job change so when's my next job title change I got the salary when's my next salary so I want to celebrate I had my buddy on last week Matt Dolson who's who's a change manager at deoe and he talked about celebrating the small wins right

and so I want to celebrate the small wins today if you want to brag on yourself throw it up in the comments I want to celebrate you this morning um want to give a shout out to two of my uh sponsors on the show first off that conference I will not be able to be there but if you use the code tesen you get 25% off and I also have five tickets to give away five tickets to give away I'm not paying for your travel but I will give you a ticket that covers the food and everything to the conference so hit me up if

you want to go to that conference Wisconsin the ticket is yours nobody has taken me up on that offer yet and also finally I want to give a shout out to render ATL uh the premier Platinum Pro gold sponsor whatever you want to call it for picking up the show for second year in um I will be doing a Meetup in Nashville for the second render Meetup April 19th so check that out I'll make the Meetup here soon I talk my to-do list um but render thank you for picking up the show and a few more people comment Michael it's good to see you tune

in from LinkedIn I love it again Richie Jordan Chris um I was about to say sam um and then Dev it's good to see you as well I need that ticket my cfp got to plan CL Dev slide slide in the DMS big dog I got you I would go to Wisconsin if I could well spread the word spread the word I got I got a handful of tickets so let me know all right Sam nothing me running my mouth big dog give the people what they want who are you what do you do and then we got a lot of questions to obviously fire

off awesome yeah so I'm Sam Julene I have been in the tech world for uh just shy of 10 years now it'll be 10 years in November and about half of that time a little over half of that time I've been in developer relations I've been uh uh started as a Advocate ended up as a director uh most of that was at ozero which was later acquired by OCTA um just up until recently and then uh uh was part of a a big layoff as as a lot of people uh have been in this season uh but then I uh recently got a new job

I'll be starting that next week at a at an Enterprise uh generative AI compa ny so super excited for that going to be building a developer motion and devel program from scratch for an AI company and uh yeah super exciting so awesome yeah I've also uh got a book out there called getting started in deal that some folks might know me from um that that uh I wrote a few years back so that's awesome so yeah that's me in a nutshell I live in uh the Pacific Northwest I've got uh wonderful wife and son and uh scruffy little dog and yeah you're in Portland right

I'm just outside of Portland I'm in Vancouver Washington I I lived in Portland for about four four or five years okay and then did the old uh flight to the BBS you know with the family and everything I visited Portland once I fell in love with it my favorite brunch spot is Proud Mary's Cafe um Australian joint and they opened one up in Austin which uh I took advantage of it South by Southwest so Chris it's good to see you chords I love it I love it ji is so hot so hot it is I don't even know what is Gen mean Sam what does

gen mean I don't even know what that means generative meaning AI that can create uh content or images or that kind of thing that's what the Gen means there you go all right so lot talk about I want to talk about your job search first right I think it's um uh again I think you did a great job of being public again I don't think it's a coincidence that the people who are public in building of job search you Chan uh some other people have been highly successful in finding a job or starting their own business um man talk about it right let's let's let's

start when you got the pink slip they don't do pink slips now but let's just say they gave you a pink slip how feel 6.

email yeah how did you feel like in the moment right because again right I feel like I feel like people put Senior folks on a pedestal when in actuality we're all the same humans whether you're junior or senior you have the same feeling so let's just walk through the search how did you feel when you first got noti fied well I mean it's it was tough because I I put a lot of uh Blood Sweat and Tears into the into the program and everything and so it definitely wasn't the way that I wanted the time to end you know to wake up to a 6 a.m.

email I was I was in total shock you know um but you know um at that point I mean then you just have to reconcile with reality you know so I I spent the day I mean it was actually um it was quite an interesting day because I had I had a lot of people reach out to me um that day like former co-workers um and people you know just connections on on social media and stuff just like outpouring support it was it was incredibly humbling like I really didn't realize it's just something I didn't anticipate you know I was managing a team of of

five at that point uh and all five of them uh independently reached out to me and and and you know wanted to tell me what a great manager I had been and and all that and a bunch of other co-workers you know so like it actually ended up being a really um positive day uh because you know like you said I was I was public about it I you know I I was careful in how I how I worded things and stuff but I was public about about sharing what happened and so yeah um yeah a lot of people reached out for support I and

I immediately started getting um you know offers for introductions and um yeah you know job leads and and that kind of thing you know and it was it was really humbling honestly like I I uh I do I I've been doing a lot of behind the scenes work in the last couple of years and I was feeling really bad that I hadn't been able to put a lot of stuff out there and and help a lot of people outside of my immediate team and to see that response from people was just um it was really moving for me so so that's kind of where where

it started you know how did you so I'm always fascinated and if the people who have tuned in that have been on my show know I ask this question if you've been on the job search but like how did you s tructure your days I because I I I I really feel feel like it is a struggle because I mean I again I was on the job search for the first time in my entire career I spent 12 years at one company and then I was like laate off in July yeah yeah and man structuring like it was funny I was tweeting about Jobster content

with ever really having looked for a job and then I was like your job search should be a nin to-5 you should do it all day and I I was like when I was on the job I was like Jesus Christ like I am exhausted so like how did you structure your days did you have any best practices that you kind of adhered to or created during the job search yeah I did and interesting so so a little bit of a backstory about me because um so in my early 20s I I did um insurance sales and investment sales did I wanted to be yeah

I wanted to be a certified financial planner okay um I I had a liberal arts degree and I was trying to figure out what to do gross what did you say I said from Florida gross uh from the the best the best SEC School University of Florida um but but yeah so so I did uh commission sales in financial services for three and a half years um and that was totally autonomous like I had some training uh but it was in Jacksonville it was just a two-hour driveway from where I was so I I learned networking and time management uh in my early 20s doing

these Financial sales and uh and it was so funny how all of that came back to me uh in February when I got laid off I started I just sort of slipped back into that same muscle memory all these patterns I had developed over three and a half years of doing sales before I got into Tech um and and it really worked it was really helpful so some of the things I did um one of the things was you know I talked talked through things with my wife and you know at first like the first day I I was going to do that mindset I

was like okay well I'm just going to like pretend like I'm working I'm going to work 9 to5 I'm I'm going to do J White Knuckle it I'm just gonna White Knuckle it and and you know I was like okay I can do I can do job stuff I can do Consulting I can do courses I can do you know I'm going to do 40 hours a week you know um you know and and you know but frankly like that's that's a lot and it's also really tough on my wife because that means she's doing the child care during that time and we were talking

about it and we were like you know there's no reason to do that like let's take let's take advantage of this and so we we agreed okay here's what I'm going to do I'm going to work from 9 to 11 and I'm gonna work from 1 to 4 Bas exactly what I did that's exactly what I did and and that way I could do breakfast with my family I could do lunch with my family I could do snack time and dinner with my family you know with you know taking care of my son um that way my wife could go to the gym she could

go you know do things take and and we could we could spend some you know it wasn't it wasn't quite on the extreme of Parental leave where it was just a true 5050 split but it was you know a lot closer than when I'm at with my nose to the grindstone at work you know ueah um and so that's what we started doing um and and it worked pretty well I mean especially because when you impose those limits you you tend to be a little bit more efficient because I know okay I've got 9 to 11 to schedule you know I've got 9 to 11

and 1 to four to schedule things so I'm going to you know bust my during that time and get as much done as I can and schedule meetings and schedule interviews and and that kind of thing during those times um so that was that was one best practice that really really helped um another thing that is a concept that kind of came back to me from sales that that I really like that we we used to use this thing called red yellow green time and and so green time is like Revenue producing time um yellow time is like the maintenance and mechanics that you need

in order to make money and the n red time is like time wasting or admin work or something like that and I've like adopted that mindset in most jobs that I've had even if I'm not like in sales or or directly impacting Revenue but like what's what's my green time like what are the things that are like actually going to move the needle and in like a job search that's like interviews yeah uh applying for jobs referrals Dollar in recruiting world yeah right exactly like after the interviews like the interview is what you're going for like that is that is what you're trying to get

because your your odds improve dramatically and um you know that like that's the that's the the kpi you're going for is interviews yeah um and then you know yellow time is like maintaining your LinkedIn profile and like you getting your resume done and like you doing all of that kind of good groundwork right um and then red time is sort of like the other the other junk so I I really hard to prioritize that like green time like um another another sort of like trick of sales was um every day set two appointments for sometime in the future and I did the same thing for

this every day I would try to schedule two two meetings whether that was for an interview or um just like catching up with somebody who was in a related company or related field um and that was sort of my goal for every day was like every day I want to talk to enough people to where I can get something on the calendar for with two people for the next you know in the future um and that's that's a really good practice to get into highly recommend doing that um because it also gives you a sense of accomplishment yeah it's it's really hard when you're SE

searching for a job because you're just like endlessly putting in applications and trying to do interviews and all that stuff like it's hard to to know it's it's sort of hard to know when to quit you know like when when to stop for the day um and I find that that kind of that rule of like setting two appointments for t he future every day is a really good way to like try to be successful because there's a lot of stuff that goes into setting those two appointments and then once you've done that you can feel like okay I've like put in enough I'm setting

myself up for the future I've got you know either an interview booked or a networking meeting booked um and so that's a good thing for your mental health to do yeah yeah yeah 100% I love that man I love that um few comments here again uh Nathan thanks for tuning in buddy I appreciate it Janet comes in here time blocking is crucial yes but also having time off for a full-time job is love me to take care of more domestic tasks as my spouse has had a really stressful yeah I mean it's a it's a song and dance man I mean I could do a

whole episode of probably just work from home from people and how to balance marriage and relationships I mean it's it is it is a dance and I mean even this morning like I couldn't do my typical morning because I had to take my daughter school because my wife is on a photo shoot right so yeah it's it's incredibly poor shout out to all this spouses who supporting each other it's hard and my goalie for my beer league team tune in Kent it's good to see you yes we need to get you in the pipes here soon but it's good to see you Kent um so

Sam uh so went through the job search had the conversations um uh man what else is there anything else you kind of wanted to share tips and tricks wise before we kind of move into the Devo side of things well I think I think you know one thing to remember is like so the this the six weeks of like layoff time was not when I started doing Network and relationship building you know it was when it was when all of that paid off I mean and that that was sort of over the course of several years of just like trying to be helpful to people

and networking and doing a support you know like um and so you know I would just say like invest in that now like even if you don't need if you don't ne ed anything it's it's actually the best time to network is when you don't need anything you know like sometimes you don't have a choice like if you're if you're in the middle of a job search like you got to do what you got to do you know but if you if you don't um don't just think like oh I'll get around to that uh you know someday when I actually need a new job

or something like that like right put in the time to get to know people and to um build your network and contribute to the community and that kind of thing because you never know when yeah you might get that email you know well and I think so I forgot who I was talking to last week Jordan Jordan I don't know if you're still on the chat he commented a little a little bit ago but Jordan made a comment he goes should I be prepared so he took his first job as a junior Dev and he was like should I just be prepared to be laid

off like should I have that mental kind of game to know I'm I'm I'm gonna get laid off and you kind of have to I mean like I mean I hate to say it like I I was very blessed to be at my last company for 12 years I want to stay at this same company I'm currently at for 12 years but you just don't know what this market right now and so what are your thoughts on that like like like do you think you think people should probably have more of a contingency plan now than they ever have yeah I mean I to be

honest like I've sort of always had that mindset of like yeah you know like you got to remember I mean maybe some of this comes from being on the the manager side and everything but like Most states in the US have what's called at will employment you know and that that basically means like there's no guarantee of any future employment you know like you you sort of always need to have a contingency plan like you can't really take anything for for granted um and I think that's just I don't think that's specific to Tech really I think that's just like the way the world works

at this point you know like like it sucks like it it sucks that we're not in a time where you can really like rely on the fact that you know once you find a job you're G to have it forever or you're gonna have it for a long time until you feel like getting doing something different but yeah I mean I I think that's that's sort of where we're at you know and and to you know some I see some of the comments about about yeah know I see being in a state of dread and stuff and you know I I totally understand I think

the way to to overcome that sense of dread is to put yourself in the driver's seat of you know if you've got yourself um like this yeah try to tr like like use that use that dread as a way to like Dread is a sign of being out of control right and so if you can channel that into okay what can I do to you know make like make my contingency plan better like maybe I can strengthen my networking maybe I can strengthen my my interviewing skills like um which is which is a lot to do when you're at a job but but what you

can do is like try to find ways at your current job to prepare yourself for the future like think about um you know I I I would periodically think about you know okay what what happens if you know I get laid off tomorrow like I thought I thought about that multiple times over the last couple of years and and I kind of had a plan in place of like you know okay I'm going to talk to these people I'm going to um yeah you know work on these skills I'm going to work on these courses here the people I'm going to talk to and so

when then when that that hammer dropped on February 1 I just I just started doing all that stuff you know like and it's not something I thought about like 247 it's just something that periodically I thought about and and then sprung into action you know well and I want to give a shout out Chris I want to give you a shout out and also Dev I mean you guys are just I mean in my opinion the consumate building public giving back I mean Chris I mean again I think you y ou do it so well you have a great spot at digital ocean now Dev

I know you're on a Visa timer and I understand that but Dev what you're doing you did that game show yesterday with everybody I mean you guys are doing it so like I understand the sense of dread don't get me wrong I'm not diminishing your feelings on that but man Dev Chris you guys are like you guys you guys are doing the damn thing right and so so I I I want to give you a shout out um for for just being so great in building in public so Sam let's move on to Devo man I mean obviously we got about 15 minutes left this

could be an hour this could be a 9h hour like seminar on devell so you put out a great post I shared it with my CEO I don't even remember I mean I remember the post but I don't remember like the intricacies of it can you just give some general thoughts on devil right now on this Market I know Chris again has a lot of great thoughts on devell um but you know again I definitely want to hear yours sure uh yeah so the the post was about it sort of came out of all the interviews that I was doing so good I mean it

was so well thought out thank you um uh because I was I was doing a lot of interviews with like VPS of marketing and and CMOS and and people like that and um really interesting to see kind of how Deval has been evolving in the post you know zero interest rate uh postco uh post layoff World um and there there a couple of big takeaways from that I mean one of them was that the skill set of being able to communicate between the business the developer Persona um and the product Engineers is still a really valuable skill um I think the market is re-evaluating what

that looks like you know where're I think the days of having massive devil organizations are probably over for a little while you know I think we grew them really large because we had easy money to do it um and we're seeing that that reaction of getting them cut back but yeah but if you have the ability you know that that insight i nto developers um that we all kind of take for granted is incredibly valuable to marketing product marketing product management you they're all looking for people like that who understand developers and can talk to them and can get their feedback in an authentic way

um and so that gave me a lot of encouragement you know a lot of hope that like the skill set of devel is still in demand um you know I know it's in demand um but I think that you know devell will be a leaner function over these next few years you know I think we'll have I mean between between the economic stuff and then all of the AI you know a AI is really commoditizing content Creation in a lot of ways and so I think you know there's going to be this expectation not just in Devo but in marketing and other places where you're

going to have to get a lot more done as a smaller team because now you have a bunch of tools that are going to enable you to do some of that interesting um and so um and so I I think we're GNA see smaller teams doing a lot of things oh hey M Mah's a amazing ozero Ambassador that I've known for several years so good to see you it um so yeah leaner meaner uh you know more efficient with things um and really leaning into that um that being the human API between developers marketing and product I think is really going to be the key

yeah um I love so yeah you know I have I want to give gun a shout out obviously I'm a little biased but I want to give a gun a shout out I think the way they're so I think one of the biggest things I consistently see on on Tech Twitter is is is justifying devil right tracking the ROI where's it coming from and for those of you who have signed up on gunio site there I I have a marketing attribution for me so if you go to the site and you fill out your profile we make you say and choose a blank where did

you hear about us and I have have my own dropdown at gun iio and and it's been wonderful for me to track I've been able to bring over 400 Engineers to the pla nto developers um that we all kind of take for granted is incredibly valuable to marketing product marketing product management you they're all looking for people like that who understand developers and can talk to them and can get their feedback in an authentic way um and so that gave me a lot of encouragement you know a lot of hope that like the skill set of devel is still in demand um you know I

know it's in demand um but I think that you know devell will be a leaner function over these next few ears you know I think we'll have I mean between between the economic stuff and then all of the AI you know a AI really commoditizing content Creation in a lot of ways and so I think you know there's going to be this expectation not just in Devo but in marketing and other places where you're going to have to get a lot more done as a smaller team because now you have a bunch of tools that are going to enable you to do some of that

interesting um and so um and so I I think we're GNA see smaller teams doing a lot of things oh hey M Mah's a amazing ozero Ambassador that I've known for several years so good to see you it um so yeah leaner meaner uh you know more efficient with things um and really leaning into that um that being the human API between developers marketing and product I think is really going to be the key yeah um I love so yeah uou know I have I want to give gun a shout out obviously I'm a little biased but I want to give a gun a shout

out I think the way they're so I think one of the biggest things I consistently see on on Tech Twitter is is is Justifying devil right tracking the ROI where's it coming from and for those of you who have signed up on gunio site there I I have a marketing attribution for me so if you go to the site and you fill out your profile we make you say and choose a blank where did you hear about us and I have have my own dropdown at gun iio and and it's been wonderful for me to track I've been able to bring over 400 Engineers to

the pla tform in about six months which is incredible um we're tracking all my sales leads that are coming in outbound and inbound so I think gun's done it well um just in regards to making it specifically tracked around social my content specifically um but we're also I'm also helping scale the content creation planing for gun in general and so you know we we have options like hey I heard you about you on LinkedIn or Twitter or Discord so that that's helping us really track the leads coming in um so I'm interested your thoughts on that Sam what are your thoughts on that and then

any other thoughts on just tracking an Roi and stuff yeah so there's there's two different things like there's at the top of the Pyramid of like what you're trying to figure out like first it depends on whether you're trying to track direct uh impact to revenue that would be through like a self-service product Le growth kind of thing like developers paying with credit cards or whether you're tracking um influence on Revenue through like Enterprise sales Enterprise contracts yeah the former is a lot easier than the latter to track um but but it is it can be done and a lot of companies they're they're doing

both they have both a A plg or self-service uh motion and they also have an Enterprise motion uh and so you end up doing both I think what's key with um Deval you know I I like to think of it in terms of uh for for the categories of metrics broadly I think of awareness engagement and adoption awareness is like developers reached that's kind of that's kind of where aw so that's that's like number of people at at the you know the conferences the meetups that kind of thing also digital reach through like blog articles that kind of thing so that's just pure awareness engagement

is like you're trying to get them going from Anonymous developers to known developers so that's like uh email signups gated content um you know eou're you're you're getting them to to um get into your orbit of of community and that kind of thing and then adoption is like product usage and particularly product usage that could be tracked to an an individual account so so this would be things like you know if you can track API usage on a per account level or if you can track account signups at an at an account level it would not be things like npm downloads or GitHub stars or

something because that's also Anonymous um so those are the three broad categories because what I'm trying to do is is is track the movement of the developer across the developer Journey going all the way so say say say those three things one more time awareness engagement and adoption so so more developers knowing about you developers uh becoming known to you and engaging with your content and your community and then actually using the product and and and building on the product um the key to each of those though is having trackable uh like calls to action across them you want to use the things like UTM

or query parameters or things like that so that you can say like okay I I gave this conference talk I've got a a UTM and a QR code that's going to this blog article so I know exactly how many people went from my talk to this article and then hopefully on that internal blog site you've got some Google analytics you know conversion tracking and things like that that you can follow all the way through it's easier said than done especially because usually devell is Reliant on other teams like marketing operations or marketing automation or marketing engineering or you know any of those things um but

um but trackable you know trying as best you can to connect the dots of the developer Journey um is how you can track that impact on on Revenue I love that uh a few things David David D G David I'm just kidding all good all good not not a big deal um I love that Reed chimed in Reed my gu I miss you uh let's get you back on the show Reed um Dev comes in here do you break down adoption into trying out or running into running in p and adoption is like once they're in your orbit then you're getting them to download a

SDK to try a sample app to to um to to um try your product um and so those are the three wide categories and so then you can start to thinkl like what are the metrics within those that we want to track uh and then you want to try and connect them to to the to the business outcomes so if it's like a sample app and you're trying to get them to to to to the to the paid product then you can track that um and you can use um something like a survey on signup to to to ask where they heard about you and

then you can track that back to the specific content and then and then there's also the question of like matchback and and attribution and all that kind of stuff but I'm I'm I'm pretty bad at matchback so I'm not going to I'm not going to pretend that I I'm an expert on that but I'm I'm pretty good at Attribution so I I think that's where where the website analytics come in and the and the um the question of like where did you hear about us that kind of thing um and so I I think that's where where you can start to to to to to

to to fgure out the Roi and then you can start to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to

to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to roduction uh it can it I'd say it depends on the company and the product um but because like us it would be trying out right you're you're trying out our

platform you're in it if you're a hiring manager you're using our new tool called discover Talent right you're trying it out that's what we were track but yeah I would say like generally for for for Devil's purpose I like to hand the ball off to the rest of the company after like once you get to the free trial you know like my I see my role as mostly getting devs into the free plan the free trial like getting them to try out the platform because usually there's other teams that then jump in from selfservice or from managed Enterprise sales or something that that are going

to take the ball from there yeah um I don't I I personally don't um need to go need to follow that thread all the way to um running in production uction but that it really depends on on the company and the product because really what we're after is like active developers like monthly active developers using the platform and engaging on it so it's up to the company whether they care more about that number tied to revenue or just um you know in general including trial accounts or free accounts or that kind of thing um and you can you can do you can make that distinguishment

using some different metrics like if you want to track um API keys or you know if there's certain endpoints that are protect because they're only used by certain accounts you could track that kind of usage so there's ways of distinguishing it for sure I love it I love it um and then Chris comes here I'm a big fan of UTM chis set up dashboards and looker to tr our teams efforts I love that I love that yeah totally we we did a lot of that at ozero umy building building looker Studio dashboards with with Google analytics data it's a it's a great way to go

nice that's awesome um Julian as we wrap up here man or Sam sorry my last name Julian uh it's a strong first name though too uh a ny any final thoughts man on on devil and or the job search just want to kind of leave you with just a minute or two of given final thoughts on either I mean I think I think job searching and Deo have the same thing in common which is trying to give first you know try to try to provide as much value as you can to other people uh be as helpful as you can be to other people and

um things have a way of coming back around in ways that you don't expect you know totally agree and so that would be my kind of general advice on on both of those fronts so I love it give back give back I love it all right yeah rapid fire questions here I didn't prep you on these they're simple don't worry they're not painful uh first question um what do you do obviously you have a family so don't say family I challenge people I've got a challenge to uh outside of family because family's always first um what do you like to do outside of work for

fun um I'd say two things I really like being outside so uh anything involving mountains or water or anything like that hicking fishing camping like any of that stuff I really enjoy uh and then on the complete opposite end of the spectrum I love uh games of of all kinds like really into video games and uh especially RPGs and and that kind of thing you what are you playing right now a lot of so I'm playing so there's this game called vampire survivors that's like it was really popular in 2022 okay um it's it created a it spawned a whole sub genre of games um

it's it's awesome so that's one of the games I'm playing right now um also been playing Star Wars Jedi Fallen order is the one that came out a few years ago nice um I've just finished The Witcher three so lots of things my this I bought a steam deck last year and it was probably the best thing I bought in a long long time so I love it but yeah yeah um Dev what is outside um it's a place with really incredible Graphics yeah I'm kind of like you I'm like I'm good outside in small increments I love thin gs inside um inside games uh

second thing Sam um if money was the same or better and you could not do something in Tech what would you do money is the same or better you couldn't do something in Tech um I'd probably do something environmental you and probably do like you know Wilderness restoration something like that a forest or with with animals or something like that you know something something professional tree Huger related yeah professional tree hugger yeah exactly love it um uh back on the technical side of things any tools Technologies Trends uh that you're researching that you're really fascinated with right now I mean I'm just going so far

down the rabbit hole of AI just like AI engineering and everything having to do with it um I can't recommend enough uh Sean swix uh all of his his work with lat space the lat and space podcast and the AI engineer stuff doing um it's if you're looking to get a job in the AI World um devour everything that um Sean and alasio are coming out with right now and uh Noah Hine who's who's also helping with a lot of the tutorial content and stuff like that so I've been I've been just like deep in that rabbit hole for several months now um I love

it that's awesome um final question as we wrap up and again thank you all so much for tuning in today we've had a lot of people in the comments I appreciate you all comment chat has been going off David mind the splinters that's good um so Sam uh we had guidance so show is called guidance counselor 2.0 for two reasons the first main reason is we didn't have guidance counselors in middle school high school and college so I want to be a guidance counselor 2.0 to people in their professional lives but also I want to kick the guidance counselors in the shin who told people

to write onepage resumes so like that that's the other side thing I don't say a lot of um uh what would be your biggest piece of career advice to young Sam young Sam um you know I was always really obsessed with trying to like find the right path and like do things a certain way and I was thinking because I saw you um Maggie Appleton made this viral post on Twitter the other day yesterday on on long-term not having long-term career goals um and I've been thinking a lot about that because at the beginning of my career I mean every fiveyear goal I had did

not happen in the way that I thought it was going to happen like zero zero percent of my career traj like five years ago I was in such a different mindset and and head space and everything and so I think there's so much of it is following things as they come and and being open to what the universe is trying to show you um and just following following the thread from one cool opportunity to the next opportunity and not don't get so hung up on if I don't have this particular credential I can't do this thing or if I don't follow if I don't do

this in this order you know like the things are a lot more fluid and amorphous than than sort of like uh high school and college would lead you to believe you know yeah yeah oh yeah I mean I um like I I I've never set five 10 year goals like I've never been that guy because it's it just changes so much like I would have never thought where I'd be at now so yeah I mean I love it I love it cool all right y'all that was fun Sam we should do it again sooner rather than later I would love to uh if people want

to reach out to you follow up with you ask you questions where's the best place to reach you out yeah so a couple different things um so I'm on Twitter and and Linkedin just julen um I I write at Sam jen.com I've also I'm also working on a new devl course called growing in developer relations it's growing and deal.com U and what I'm going to do is so so at this next job that I start Monday I'm going to be building a a devl program and developer motion from scratch for an AI company and so I'm really going to try to to build in public

as best I can and share the the the goods and the bads the highs a nd the lows of what that's going to be like I'm G to take all this experience I've had and and and try to build something from scratch so I'm gonna share that uh uh on on Twitter but also through the growing in devil.com like updates and um as I build out that course and everything so definitely hop on that and then the sort of the meta stuff that I talk about is on my developer microskills newsletter developer micros skills.com um that's where I talk about things like productivity and time

blocking and habits and uh journals and and that kind of thing um uh so yeah there's lots lots of different ways you can keep in touch and and read my writing I'm I'm I'm obsessed with with writing in general so it's awesome I love it I hate writing so go follow Sam um awesome well again thanks Sam for hanging out with me today say stay on so I can say backstage uh so I can say bye to you backstage again for everybody who's in the comments today thank you so much for tuning in um it was a great great morning tomorrow morning uh we have

the great will Johnson oh the show tomorrow I love will absolutely to death he and Dom are mcing react Miami which I will not be able to go to unfortunately um but Will's on the show tomorrow so come hang out Thursday uh met a Founder doing some really cool stuff in the AI space I don't really know what it is it's really cool uh that's Thursday unicorn finders so very excited about that and then uh Friday we're gonna conclude the week out before I head to the beach for a week with Gant from infinite red that's going to be a trip as always so again

Sam thank you my friend for joining this morning y'all have a Wonder for one we'll see you all tomorrow 9:30 thanks everybody thanks Janet thanks everybody