episode 47 w/aaron hurt from amazon on interviewing

full transcript

auto-generated from the audio, so expect a few typos. the audio is the source of truth.

What's going on everybody? We are live this morning with none other than Aaron Hurt and Do you hurt people sometimes I? Tried to I had the last before but I tried to try to be critical. I love it. I love it Well everyone thank you again for tuning in so We won't have a long intro today because we actually have a guest and it's not me just running my mouth for 15 minutes But if you are watching, please add us comment. Let Aaron know where you're tuning in from I know he would love to hear from you. I thought up on the screen I'm gonna let Aaron give his overall background once we get rolling But today we are gonna talk about interviewing we're gonna talk about interviewing from Amazon side We're gonna talk about as much as Aaron's willing to share the secret sauce We're gonna talk about what Aaron likes to see in individuals who are interviewing And how you can better yourself in the interview process so we're gonna talk about that and But again add us comment us let it let us know where you're tuning in from But we're more admitted in so I'm definitely gonna go ahead and get started Before we let Aaron give a quick intro about himself again, thank you I'll tune in to guys concert 2.0 the main goal of this live shows to allow others to learn something for 15 minutes every day to network with people that comment On this video so again comment Use that as a way to network with others And then also to meet cool people like Aaron I've admired Aaron from afar on the Nash Dev Slack channel if you are a national and not a part of that You need to get a part of that.

There's a lot of magic going down in those channels I want to give shoutouts to my marketing team behind me brain to NARBA brain in 78. Thank you again for everything you do Kind of the creative direction that I'm going in Also Alex Pooler who does all my copy and then Noah Allen who does all my video work I am looking to hire three more interns. So if you are looking To gain actual real-world experience and not do a bunch of lame spreadsheets for somebody I'm looking for a data analyst. I am looking for a project coordinator And I'm also looking for a video graphics person.

So enough of me writing my mouth Aaron Thanks for joining the show man. I appreciate it Aaron give it intro about yourself. Who who are you? And then we'll go ahead and dive in to some questions Sure, so right now most currently The systems development engineering manager names on which is a mouthful Basically very talented. I work with the team Some of the team very talented systems engineers Man the open source Linux focused who also do development Build in points, you know, restful APIs as well as CLI tools and things to help manage the automation of large fleets of end-to-point devices Across Amazon's network As soon as a thousand of employees.

That's awesome. That's awesome. And you summarize that up perfectly So so let's go ahead and dive in and Cathy. It's good to see you Again, yes, Aaron. Thanks for Aaron. Aaron goes. I've never seen your live show I said great even better. Come on. Let's hang out So Aaron first question Let's talk about the hiring been nice to meet you Aaron. Um, Andrew again. Thank you for the coffee. You sent me appreciate it Um, let's talk about interview name is on right so you said as we were off air That it's the much different processing we've ever seen before so if some if somebody's watches job seekers watch Just like man like I've always won interview at Amazon.

I wonder what it's like give us a breakdown again I don't know how much you can share but give us a breakdown of kind of how y'all interview just as super high level Absolutely, so the the process is really designed Which I find absolutely to really eliminate bias as much as possible um, the really comes down to everything starts out with the initial phone screen. You know, once you've kind of submitted your resume Um, and that's it. There's no long form. You upload your resume to a portal It's actually looked at by humans at end this honk surprisingly And once you know those are reviewed by the internal recruiters if something sticks out some next day is out You'll get a phone call and the the people who do those phone calls are selected to be tinnered It means So they don't let anyone I haven't been there long enough To allow to do phone screens.

It's really so you don't even do phone screens for your I'm not I'm not allowed Because they insist on these really high standards for phone screeners because they know that that gate The the power that that gate has of keeping people, you know from moving on to the next phase Yeah, so they really only allow very tinner very experienced Interviewers to conduct those phone screens those initial ones. That's crazy. Okay. So so let's say any game Paul Thanks for tuning in man from Arkansas Little little rock tech Was my favorite conference book at last you thanks to your didn't Paul, but So so alright get past the phone screen So after a boat.

Yeah, so after a phone screen there may be it's there's no necessarily set process is known You may have one screen phone screen. You may have two. It really depends But after that initial phone screen even long to what they call the loop interview process the loop and the loop that sounds Can be it is a five-hour commitment dish Like like five hours in a row It can be of the since since the pandemic they have at least all the only being person was the only option Since the pandemic and the way I came in it was all virtual and they now give you the option to split it up Into different chunks of back to back on different days.

Yeah, so you can kind of spread that out three hours one day two hours one day Cool But each one of those hours is a You know one on one or like a one on two with someone to name us on it and someone's shadowing that process and You have an hour with five different Amazonians to talk through and be interviewed and It'll be depending on the position those people will cover everything from technical competencies and each person on that loop beforehand will have a set you know Specific competencies that they're supposed to like interview with one is just focusing on this part of the

job Interviewing to is focused like they all are just very silo and they can Absolutely and and the way People who aren't familiar with Amazon If you've ever heard of the Amazon's leadership principles, you know those 12 12 points You can find you know, you can Google and with our leadership principles The the bulk of the interview are people covering asking those behavioral questions about those Those are leadership principles, you know, so um, tell me about a time when it's tight questions You'll get a lot and there's there's no tricks or some gotchas It's really the philosophy name is on that I've things that I've

kind of felt myself for a long time.

I didn't really have For as well Sure, but they have this they have this belief that the best predictor of future success is previous behavior and So they so they they ask these questions about situations you've gone through in your career and they look for specifics That well in the past you've acted this way, so we think you'll act this way the future and so we're looking for Wow, so after that of those five rounds and then is there an offer? The cameras okay, yeah, so and the Internally It's not no real secret. They they they try very hard to get back to people really promptly There's a big push.

I think that's so important. It's just it's an underrated part of interview And just get back to people in a timely manner It is yeah, there's there's a there's a very strict SLA internally and it was always mean that things happen But they do keep metrics on it and they really really try to get back to all those things within two business days and All loop interviews within five business days. Wow. That's awesome now A few comments came in Andrew, we love to hear thoughts on rustling. I tell you I developers kind of make up stuff We we can get that at the end Aaron of an M Brian Brian with the jokes this morning Are they Amazonian words or spheres Brian go away?

Geez also Brian congrats on the new job buddy, but so so Aaron I know you want to plug your team a little bit are are you hiring if so what type of roles? Yeah, there's actually you tube open right now. I'm working to get two more open Mayor behind oh, yeah but we do have two roles open for systems development engineers working out of the National office once that reopens Okay, um or possibly the Austin office some of the possibility Is there a way so I'm gonna I'm gonna throw this up I'm gonna throw this banner up because I just went to your LinkedIn and just post it kind of what you said Is there a way people can drop Your name and all in this at all like hey like I heard Aaron talk to Taylor or is there any sort of like referral thing?

Sure, you can you can just uh Team me on LinkedIn too. We can have a conversation and I'm absolutely capable and willing to do internal referrals for people um Sure, I have no problem do that one of the one the other things has been very different about being a day It was on is the the focus they have on recruitment I and really all the other managers. I met a Amazon spin several hours a week on nothing but recruitment just everything from Like the man really so the managers do their own sourcing Absolutely. Well somehow. So I work with the internal. I mean we do have an internal sourcing recruiting team There and there's a dedicated person for each kind of larger team of managers.

It's kind of the point for that sourcing But I'm expected to spend you know, a few hours a day kind of throwing LinkedIn Looking for you know, at least on the day But a week, you know going through LinkedIn and looking for people submitting those just to the pipeline Pick out because you know your recruiter recruiters don't always have the exact same technical insight into the role Correct, and then it does you're not and you're not and and and that's that's the bridge there So I mean and I'll get a lot of campaigns from the internal recruitment team You know hey I'm this person on LinkedIn or someone submitted this resume in a trade show All right, it looks good.

Then they could you look over before moving on to a phone screen And I spent several hours a week doing just that. That's awesome. So So again for those of you tuning in Aaron is hiring for his team and Amazon Just go connect them on LinkedIn because that is a lot shorter than that So just go connect with Aaron on LinkedIn And tell them I sent you So Aaron so as as we kind of get to the last stage here this of this episode And then yes Brian. I know we all deal with I appreciate you buddy, but Let's so let's talk about so On the point there yes, no, there's no there's no there's no My name is always with skiers, but Amazon does have a lot of really cool kind of internal Little groups and and okay So Brian was on something one of them is the warriors and Amazon group so those are for you know Ex-military as well.

Yeah, that's cool Military supporters and they have several of those kind of inclusion groups That's awesome. Yeah, and again So Brian asked this question again if y'all if anyone's watching please ask questions for Aaron About Amazon interview because we're about to get into what he looks for so Brian says this Aaron anybody to read slash training for brand new engineering managers Oh There's a lot of Yeah It'll be pressed to these specifics, but I would say Just my personal experience be Don't ever forget what it was like to be on the other side of the desk Really really put yourself in that position When you're interviewing people and also make the realization that everyone you talk to as a hiring manager Is a potential customer also especially especially names on so you know my one of my key responsibilities is to make sure that Every interaction I have as a hiring manager But the person I'm speaking to has a positive impression of Amazon Weather weeks in the offer not and that I'm not alienating anyone or potentially biasing anyone to get some organization I love that.

I love that. That's so good. So so let's get let's get to this rust-laying thing because because Andrew thought I was joking Andrew. I was gonna get to you man. Come on now thoughts on it. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, so so In my previous role and not the current team on now previous role Another company. We were having a goal-ing shop. We were looking at rust We actually started using some of the TIBB The the KV system that's written in rust. I don't have a lot of personal experience with it I do absolutely no high performance. It's a memory safe And there is a big push in the industry Some people are actually already starting to on GitHub kind of cork something go-ling apps into rust It's just a little bit lower level from my understanding But in the Amazon picture I'm talking about a little bit earlier the There's no Firm you know talk down Instruction at Amazon on you must use this language for this project for this team.

That's um every team Gets to make those own decisions and are really empowered and expect that's awesome So you will there are all sorts of teams across Amazon using it from you know going to rust to you know There's obviously a ton of Java but Every team kind of makes those own decisions and implements what they think is going to be the best choice For the success of their project. I love that I love that Andrew. Thank you that question Man, I appreciate I was gonna get to you know always do So yeah, Aaron, let's touch on this real fast And then we'll get into the interview question and again, I knew we were gonna probably get rolling here this morning Um Talk about Amazon and the biggest mindset shift from a scale perspective So again, you know, I chat about that.

I'll mind I want the viewers to kind of wrap their heads around if you're trying to get an Amazon Facebook whatever Talk about the scale that you deal with Yeah, no, it's it's massive and um those are actually words that inside the Amazon They have what they call they call them weasel words. So There's a words weasel words you get being if you're in a meeting or you're writing a paper You know, and you use yes absolutely and you think it's like large or big or Really great or massive because Looking for it. So we do that with recurring a sharp candidate like exactly he doesn't come Yeah, like be be specific because you know what what is massive?

What is what what is huge? Baries different between people's different perspectives So when you know when you're communicating be specific using exact numbers use use metrics Just close as you can because in Amazon, you know What would be a large project somewhere else is a small project? meaning a small project may touch 10,000 points that Amazon There are several thousand hand scanners within a single warehouse facility single facility because those things would be the size of you know 20 football fields under one roof and You know There's a lot of equipment in one single facility and They they they are spinning those up constantly building new centers So let's talk so this kind of goes into interviewing right so the individuals who are watching this rather on the market or looking to be on the market not just Amazon But in general, what are some key things you look for specifically an interviewer?

Like soft skills, I mean some more just soft skills. I mean technical sure. Yeah, I mean First and foremost no, no, you're thing You know whatever it is you're into whatever your passion is whatever role you're trying to apply for No, no what you do no well be able to talk about it but on the size of that the soft skills be Huge things I look for in very general terms People who are empathetic and I can't stress that enough People who have the ability to empathize with others and especially have the ability to empathize with internal and external customers organization Because when you you know when you're solving problems and you're dealing with people and Under that under the type of scale it was on really many organizations.

It's stressful You know deadlines come up There's pressure and being able to you know, try to step and and be able to analyze that situation from a point of input You know and understanding that someone who you know may have came off a bit harsh to you or may have been a bit blunt You know the request or a question you would be able to understand that they ultimately Are working toward the same goal? You have you have a shared connection of doing what's best for the customer? Right, I love that. I love that so much. So let me ask you this so what does When you guys are trying to hark some trying to think about some issues that I have with with people asking all time about interviewing Like what are your thoughts on people?

So many of their resume when they don't have all the specs like does Amazon have a Does Amazon have a hard set requirement where they need 50% 60% I mean what does that look like you shed a little light on that? Sure, so really it's it's more about It's very tied to to the job description and the job specs that are posted The internal recruiting team and there's whenever a new spec is posted There's always a little internal being with the recruiting team the hiring manager So just kind of go over, you know, well, what do you really love you for? All right, and because the same is on that always is you know Which you know what are two or three essential leadership principles for this position?

You know that the part parts of for the role must embody You know, are you you know if it's a some middle-level engineer position That's really tactile, you know, you want someone who's gonna be really strong and deliver results Who's going to you know really simple by earns trust to be able to maintain relationships with their teams Those types of things and they'll be a meeting where we'll discuss those Sure, and as that pipeline grows Like I said screening resumes and me just communicating Back you know, hey, I see that you know this person has you know terraform experience and right You know the the roles of it we probably already have open right now The looking for some of these very strong in Linux fundamentals.

Okay, so if The word Linux isn't anywhere on the resume Probably not going to get flagged for a phone screen, but sometimes I've been talking to others. They well. They don't mention Linux anywhere, but they have this huge Enelis of they've done terraform. They've done Ansible. They're this as a nut These things are probably being done in a Linux environment Maybe you should just call them in any ways and ask them. You know, maybe they maybe they put that on the resume Maybe they didn't turn to them But these are some hints to look at when your screening through profiles Well, you know, it's so important for everybody watching this right I mean Aaron just validate everything I've been talking about which is you have to have a blend of Project what you've done But also the tech jargon right because at the end of the day your resume gets you in the door You need to have the specific technology specific skills to at least catch the eye of people right?

I'm not saying I listen. I know I have run across resumes where there's an entire page of just buzzwords like literally They just kind of it's like a run-on sentence. I'm not saying do that Saying there's like I think a good blend of kind of mixing both in I must say be be careful Yes, you want you want to brag sheet But if you if you use the word expert You know or or something like that on your resume You better be prepared to back that up Oh, yeah, because you will you will get real good. Yeah, I mean be careful right? I would call this these words right expert advance You know that's like listen at the end of the day I so I say this to every develop our work with You are only as good as the hiring manager for that company sees you now I did do I agree with that no because because I think at the end of the day other people should not define your work However, however the companies are the ones paying you and so you need to make sure that you know Self-right yourself Appropriately because I do that on a scale for more than 10 10 you can write the books and Linux How would you rate yourself if you're giving yourself a non and I'm sitting with your your resume to Aaron by the way?

I can't work with Amazon. I don't like outside vendors. That's a whole nother thing Aaron's gonna grill you or whoever on his team is gonna grill you for that non-addent self-rating So please be aware of that so I 100% agree with you on that Brian with the question do you write software that works with the warehouse Automation slush robotics So me no, I actually on the operation side of the house So with the name of the one kind of gross separation you have the operation side and then you have the more Software development as the side as far as engineering groups. Yo, so what my team is responsible for is taking the Maintenance of the actual underlying OS platform, you know patching bare metal provisioning of new hardware for the robotics teams and other Teens of the name is on giving them a centralized point Where where they?

Can focus more time on developing their software putting features in your software and Can pull back from having to worry about managing the actual base OS or doing you know actual systems administration Let let my team and others on the operations team do that for them. I love that. I love that And then Andrew regarding expert thing 100% yeah, don't be going around saying expert everything when you're not Well Aaron Thanks again for coming on me. I appreciate I knew this would not go 15 minutes I knew we were gonna go longer so thank you again for taking time out of your day I appreciate it again just to just recap how can people find you again?

So Reach up to me on the link or pme on that I'm around both Awesome sounds good. Well Aaron. Thank you again for coming on. I appreciate everyone. Thank you all again So in the guys to the two point out go connect with Aaron show them some love and we'll see you all tomorrow unicorn finders Be live appreciate